Evidence for God from Science

Beautifully said BW.
Sometimes we forget that the best description of God is : God is love.

B. W. wrote:I am not sure if I can bring any clarity to this conversation but what I think I am hearing Jac say is found in John 17:23,25,26 and summed up nicely in Revelation 4:11 NKJV.

This comes back to the subject of worship and piety - not in the modern sense but rather what the bible reveals on these subjects. A good idea of what defines worship is found on the Got Questions - What is Worship link provided.

Go back to John 17:23,25,26 - best way I can describe worship and piety from the scriptures is to be swallowed up within God and He in you. In other words so united with the Godhead Trinity that a person, is consumed with him in a manner that words just cannot describe. So swallowed up within him is rational, reassuring, life changing, peaceful, intelligent, natural, and so non-weird. Yes, it is true that we, as mere mortals in this earth bound life cannot stay in this unity all the time but we can enter in this realm and stay there for longer periods of time. Each time we do, the more we are transformed into the likeness of the Lord as the scripture teaches in Romans 8:29.

It is here, in this state that one begins to grasp why he created us as well as why he created anything at all when he never had too Revelation 4:11 NKJV.

At one time before the fall of humanity, Adam and Eve, lived in that unity of the Godhead Trinity and walked with God. In doing so, they governed (worshiped) correctly. However the fall came, and humanity became independent agents separate from God and embarked on a journey manipulating good and evil to achieve their own ends. God foreknew this - yes. Why did he allow it? His own attributes and nature discovered in the bible provide the answer to that, as, what does he have to fear?

We live in this fallen world and so many Christians remain independent from God never taking the time to ask, seek, and knock just to be embraced by him as a little child embraces their earthly father and taking the time to wait to be ushered into his consuming presence by His grace despite our failures and dysfunctions. He embraces still the longing heart.

I just returned Tuesday form the Reservation in South Dakota and dealt with folks who were robbed of love from their parents and never held by them. But to pray them through the abandonment, trauma, abuse, neglect, rejection, they suffered from their own families by having the Lord reveal himself to them - embrace them - sing to them a song - the effect was profound. I say this to make a point, many here have been robbed from experiencing a reassuring embrace from our own mothers or fathers in many different ways that it convinces us that God does not care to embrace us now. That he is as unfeeling, uncaring, distant as some families are to each other. Such human Independence cost us dearly. However, thru what Jesus Christ did on the cross and resurrection reconciles us back to experiences God's embrace to again walk in the cool of the day with him.

Let us not forget the message of John 3:15,16, 2 Co 5:18,19,20,21, and Col 1:20

I have not seen or experienced a move of God as I did last weekend in South Dakota that has more deeply impacted me, therefore, may the Lord pour it out on you all soon...
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Wow. B.W, that was truly profound. I must admit, I am still dealing with a lot of doubt with my faith right now and I just don't feel very close to God. I have been researching things like genetic homosexuality, arguments against O.T events, and just philosophical arguments against God in general, and being a thinker, I have seriously considered their validity. However, the thought of living life without God or there being no personal God scares me. I want to experience an afterlife, and what want to know that the God I love and believe loves me is real and that I'm not wasting my life being maligned for something that never existed. But your post reminded me what my faith is all about, and I will try my best to let God take over in the next few days. Maybe if I do, God will reveal the answers to some of these difficult questions.

You're not the only one searching all over the space of heart and mind trying to find the reality of God. We are systematically and constantly barraged from scientists, atheists, humanists....our text books in school..our politics....ALL of these avenues SCREAM at us not to be led by an invisible man in the sky. I've learned this much: WHY rip out prayer? WHY rip out the 10 commandments? WHY do people frown upon the name of Jesus?
I'LL TELL YOU WHY: The principalities and powers running this rock right now are writhing in angst. These darker forces tend to get hostile around people with a simple and strong faith in the Author of Morality. They appear to be afraid of something.. political INcorrectness and a gentle, quiet spirit that doesn't want war or unrest seems to be very unattractive these days. OF COURSE God exists. Of course he is real. Why else would these great intellects, leaders, and corporate executives ( who really run things) have such a difficult time with holiness ? God is sifting through His creation and only taking the cleaned things back home for good...for keeps. He wants it all to be "good" again. I'm thinking He made a big gouge in the after realm/heaven after he threw out his negative angels. He's giving humans the chance to enjoy the first estate. Christ is there right now painting my hut...wish I could say I have a mansion. We were created because God does not push a button on you that regurgitates a robotic "I love you" response. He interacts with us. Some of his first creations rejected Him so he made room for the little brothers and sisters (us humans) to usurp the elders (the angels). That's my take...And I'm stickin with it! Cain was jealous of Abel and killed him. Jacob finagled Esaus birthright. Poor Joseph was thrown in a pit and sold. These angels hate us. So God tells us throughout scripture that the older siblings have been thrown out and he's preparing the "right type" of younger ones to move into the bigger bedroom...originally the eldest's birthright. The older siblings are jealous and spiteful and like to pinch you when they think the Father isn't looking. God made us because He's a family man and wants all of His children at his table when dinner is ready. Our existence was a threat to them from the very beginning and Lucifer and his ilk have been trying to frustrate the plan ever since. What parent prefers the snotty, haughty, rebellious child over the helpless, more gentle one? To this day Lucifer is trying to throw us under the bus by waving shiny things in our faces and fill us with false promises. All the while setting us up to stand there in front of God like a spoil child stamping his feet and pointing at us screaming "He did it! He did it" But God knew way back then what this oldest child was going to do so, he prepared this lesser, younger, weaker vessel... knew that Lucifer was going to pinch us, make fun of us, drag us through the mud, blame us, hate us, entrap us....and God just smiled in that all knowing way parents do when they KNOW their kids and said. ."I'll fix you". Read your bible..you'll see many references to the younger inheriting the good gifts. Provided the younger keeps themselves in check and does not let the older brother get him into terrible trouble. Lucifer is a bad egg....Jesus knew how to fix the problem of us being stupid and falling for the tricks. Even the Israelites were promised the land of Cannan which was full of Nephilim (the giants/half breed off spring of the fallen ones) and lived on that land. God said "slay them all...they're NOT from MY family".
So, I hope my explanation helped. I keep things in a scriptural prospective. Don't let so many talking heads cloud you with doubt. God loves you. He made you. He cherishes you. YOU are the baby of the family...just like me...and He has plans to give the baby ALL that the older brother threw away....and then some!

Hope67 wrote:You're not the only one searching all over the space of heart and mind trying to find the reality of God. We are systematically and constantly barraged from scientists, atheists, humanists....our text books in school..our politics....ALL of these avenues SCREAM at us not to be led by an invisible man in the sky. I've learned this much: WHY rip out prayer? WHY rip out the 10 commandments? WHY do people frown upon the name of Jesus?
I'LL TELL YOU WHY: The principalities and powers running this rock right now are writhing in angst. These darker forces tend to get hostile around people with a simple and strong faith in the Author of Morality. They appear to be afraid of something.. political INcorrectness and a gentle, quiet spirit that doesn't want war or unrest seems to be very unattractive these days. OF COURSE God exists. Of course he is real. Why else would these great intellects, leaders, and corporate executives ( who really run things) have such a difficult time with holiness ? God is sifting through His creation and only taking the cleaned things back home for good...for keeps. He wants it all to be "good" again. I'm thinking He made a big gouge in the after realm/heaven after he threw out his negative angels. He's giving humans the chance to enjoy the first estate. Christ is there right now painting my hut...wish I could say I have a mansion. We were created because God does not push a button on you that regurgitates a robotic "I love you" response. He interacts with us. Some of his first creations rejected Him so he made room for the little brothers and sisters (us humans) to usurp the elders (the angels). That's my take...And I'm stickin with it! Cain was jealous of Abel and killed him. Jacob finagled Esaus birthright. Poor Joseph was thrown in a pit and sold. These angels hate us. So God tells us throughout scripture that the older siblings have been thrown out and he's preparing the "right type" of younger ones to move into the bigger bedroom...originally the eldest's birthright. The older siblings are jealous and spiteful and like to pinch you when they think the Father isn't looking. God made us because He's a family man and wants all of His children at his table when dinner is ready. Our existence was a threat to them from the very beginning and Lucifer and his ilk have been trying to frustrate the plan ever since. What parent prefers the snotty, haughty, rebellious child over the helpless, more gentle one? To this day Lucifer is trying to throw us under the bus by waving shiny things in our faces and fill us with false promises. All the while setting us up to stand there in front of God like a spoil child stamping his feet and pointing at us screaming "He did it! He did it" But God knew way back then what this oldest child was going to do so, he prepared this lesser, younger, weaker vessel... knew that Lucifer was going to pinch us, make fun of us, drag us through the mud, blame us, hate us, entrap us....and God just smiled in that all knowing way parents do when they KNOW their kids and said. ."I'll fix you". Read your bible..you'll see many references to the younger inheriting the good gifts. Provided the younger keeps themselves in check and does not let the older brother get him into terrible trouble. Lucifer is a bad egg....Jesus knew how to fix the problem of us being stupid and falling for the tricks. Even the Israelites were promised the land of Cannan which was full of Nephilim (the giants/half breed off spring of the fallen ones) and lived on that land. God said "slay them all...they're NOT from MY family".
So, I hope my explanation helped. I keep things in a scriptural prospective. Don't let so many talking heads cloud you with doubt. God loves you. He made you. He cherishes you. YOU are the baby of the family...just like me...and He has plans to give the baby ALL that the older brother threw away....and then some!

Thank you for the caring repsonse. I wish I could say I was doing better with my faith right now like I said I would be in my earlier post, but there are still so many problems I am having intellectually right now with my faith. One of those talking heads is me! I am a thinker, and I cannot help but ask questions about the things I know about God and the bible. I sometimes wonder if my reasoning is clouded from being a fallen human, but when something doesn't make sense, it just doesn't make sense. I won't claim to know better than God, but I feel like things should simply be different somehow. Maybe years from now I will look back on this time and be relieved that I came through stronger, or maybe I'll look back and find I did the right and rational thing by leaving the faith. I don't know. All I know is that times are rough for me right now and I don't know what to do with myself.

Wow. B.W, that was truly profound. I must admit, I am still dealing with a lot of doubt with my faith right now and I just don't feel very close to God. I have been researching things like genetic homosexuality, arguments against O.T events, and just philosophical arguments against God in general, and being a thinker, I have seriously considered their validity. However, the thought of living life without God or there being no personal God scares me. I want to experience an afterlife, and what want to know that the God I love and believe loves me is real and that I'm not wasting my life being maligned for something that never existed. But your post reminded me what my faith is all about, and I will try my best to let God take over in the next few days. Maybe if I do, God will reveal the answers to some of these difficult questions.

Interesting research.
I'm curious, what would homosexuality being genetic have to do with God existing or the resurrection being a historical event?

In the same vein, even if the entire OT were an allegory it wouldn't change whether the resurrection was a historical event.
Philosophically speaking, what difference would it make if you wasted your time being maligned for something that never existed? Assuming there is no God, of course. If that is reality, then everything is a waste of time.

Thank you for the caring repsonse. I wish I could say I was doing better with my faith right now like I said I would be in my earlier post, but there are still so many problems I am having intellectually right now with my faith. One of those talking heads is me! I am a thinker, and I cannot help but ask questions about the things I know about God and the bible. I sometimes wonder if my reasoning is clouded from being a fallen human, but when something doesn't make sense, it just doesn't make sense. I won't claim to know better than God, but I feel like things should simply be different somehow. Maybe years from now I will look back on this time and be relieved that I came through stronger, or maybe I'll look back and find I did the right and rational thing by leaving the faith. I don't know. All I know is that times are rough for me right now and I don't know what to do with myself.

I was reading through your last few posts. First, sorry to hear about your struggles and glad to have you here. I don't post as much as in the past, but might have something to offer in light of what you shared. I think one of the most interesting things about the human condition is our tendency to not be honest with ourselves. Hear me out. I promise, I'm not picking at you, but taking a sincere look at the concerns you've expressed. You say your issues are intellectual. I disagree. I'm not debating whether you have intellectual questions. You do. But your problem, as I see it, is primarily emotional. You said in the previous post that you are "scared" there is no God and no afterlife. The intellectual part of this has nothing to do with your feelings. Nothing personal, but that's a fact. Either these things are true or they aren't. Period. That's the intellectual ends of it. What we want to be true really isn't a matter of intelligence. When we fail to recognize this in ourselves, it can lead us down a path of ups and downs with doubt. For example, you earlier mentioned homosexuality and a genetic link. I can assure having read countless testimony and study that any biological 'cause' to homosexuality has no bearing on the truth claims of Christianity. If you have something to prove otherwise, I'm all ears. But, it's like saying color blindness, or Down's syndrome are evidence against the truth claims of the bible. It doesn't follow. Once we accept our emotional infancy we can realize that most of our doubts are rooted in emotion and not in intellectual areas. This better equips us to study the 'intellectual' issues without shipwrecking our faith every time someone publishes something that 'appears' to challenge the claims of Christianity.

jlay wrote:

Thank you for the caring repsonse. I wish I could say I was doing better with my faith right now like I said I would be in my earlier post, but there are still so many problems I am having intellectually right now with my faith. One of those talking heads is me! I am a thinker, and I cannot help but ask questions about the things I know about God and the bible. I sometimes wonder if my reasoning is clouded from being a fallen human, but when something doesn't make sense, it just doesn't make sense. I won't claim to know better than God, but I feel like things should simply be different somehow. Maybe years from now I will look back on this time and be relieved that I came through stronger, or maybe I'll look back and find I did the right and rational thing by leaving the faith. I don't know. All I know is that times are rough for me right now and I don't know what to do with myself.

I was reading through your last few posts. First, sorry to hear about your struggles and glad to have you here. I don't post as much as in the past, but might have something to offer in light of what you shared. I think one of the most interesting things about the human condition is our tendency to not be honest with ourselves. Hear me out. I promise, I'm not picking at you, but taking a sincere look at the concerns you've expressed. You say your issues are intellectual. I disagree. I'm not debating whether you have intellectual questions. You do. But your problem, as I see it, is primarily emotional. You said in the previous post that you are "scared" there is no God and no afterlife. The intellectual part of this has nothing to do with your feelings. Nothing personal, but that's a fact. Either these things are true or they aren't. Period. That's the intellectual ends of it. What we want to be true really isn't a matter of intelligence. When we fail to recognize this in ourselves, it can lead us down a path of ups and downs with doubt. For example, you earlier mentioned homosexuality and a genetic link. I can assure having read countless testimony and study that any biological 'cause' to homosexuality has no bearing on the truth claims of Christianity. If you have something to prove otherwise, I'm all ears. But, it's like saying color blindness, or Down's syndrome are evidence against the truth claims of the bible. It doesn't follow. Once we accept our emotional infancy we can realize that most of our doubts are rooted in emotion and not in intellectual areas. This better equips us to study the 'intellectual' issues without shipwrecking our faith every time someone publishes something that 'appears' to challenge the claims of Christianity.

Hello jlay. Thank you for concern. I guess what I was trying to convey was that whatever the facts are, it would inevitably affect my emotions, mainly in that if there is no personal god, then I would have to deal with thinking that there is no afterlife or ultimate justice. Sometimes my intelluctual musings translate into strong emtional reactions, so I assure you that they are seperate, but the emotions nonethless cloud how I should deal with the implications of my musings. I'm glad you mentioned the ressurection because it is exactly that which has sustained my belief in God so far. The ressurection and the following growth of christianty and Paul's conversion seem only explainable by way of God working His will.
The mention of homosexuality was a passing comment, but I'm glad you brought it up, because I have been reading about how scientists have apparently proven that the brain structure and chemical makeup of homosexual persons are empirically different than those of heterosexual people. If this is true, it would be difficult to explain to a homosexual why the bible condemns something they supposedly don't have any control over. Interestingly enough I was also just reading an article about a man who was born homosexual but willingly went through reparative therapy and no longer has sexual desires for other men and is now just celibate. So that is a bit of a confusing matter that I would be glad to hear your thoughts on.
Anyways, I would like to thank you for being the voice of reason amid my situation and would be glad to hear more of what you have to say. Right now there is a fairly active post conversation I started in the god and science forum about Noah's ark. If you could take the time and scroll through some of the posts and share your thoughts, that would be great.

ConfusedMan wrote:

jlay wrote:

Thank you for the caring repsonse. I wish I could say I was doing better with my faith right now like I said I would be in my earlier post, but there are still so many problems I am having intellectually right now with my faith. One of those talking heads is me! I am a thinker, and I cannot help but ask questions about the things I know about God and the bible. I sometimes wonder if my reasoning is clouded from being a fallen human, but when something doesn't make sense, it just doesn't make sense. I won't claim to know better than God, but I feel like things should simply be different somehow. Maybe years from now I will look back on this time and be relieved that I came through stronger, or maybe I'll look back and find I did the right and rational thing by leaving the faith. I don't know. All I know is that times are rough for me right now and I don't know what to do with myself.

I was reading through your last few posts. First, sorry to hear about your struggles and glad to have you here. I don't post as much as in the past, but might have something to offer in light of what you shared. I think one of the most interesting things about the human condition is our tendency to not be honest with ourselves. Hear me out. I promise, I'm not picking at you, but taking a sincere look at the concerns you've expressed. You say your issues are intellectual. I disagree. I'm not debating whether you have intellectual questions. You do. But your problem, as I see it, is primarily emotional. You said in the previous post that you are "scared" there is no God and no afterlife. The intellectual part of this has nothing to do with your feelings. Nothing personal, but that's a fact. Either these things are true or they aren't. Period. That's the intellectual ends of it. What we want to be true really isn't a matter of intelligence. When we fail to recognize this in ourselves, it can lead us down a path of ups and downs with doubt. For example, you earlier mentioned homosexuality and a genetic link. I can assure having read countless testimony and study that any biological 'cause' to homosexuality has no bearing on the truth claims of Christianity. If you have something to prove otherwise, I'm all ears. But, it's like saying color blindness, or Down's syndrome are evidence against the truth claims of the bible. It doesn't follow. Once we accept our emotional infancy we can realize that most of our doubts are rooted in emotion and not in intellectual areas. This better equips us to study the 'intellectual' issues without shipwrecking our faith every time someone publishes something that 'appears' to challenge the claims of Christianity.

Hello jlay. Thank you for concern. I guess what I was trying to convey was that whatever the facts are, it would inevitably affect my emotions, mainly in that if there is no personal god, then I would have to deal with thinking that there is no afterlife or ultimate justice. Sometimes my intelluctual musings translate into strong emtional reactions, so I assure you that they are seperate, but the emotions nonethless cloud how I should deal with the implications of my musings. I'm glad you mentioned the ressurection because it is exactly that which has sustained my belief in God so far. The ressurection and the following growth of christianty and Paul's conversion seem only explainable by way of God working His will.
The mention of homosexuality was a passing comment, but I'm glad you brought it up, because I have been reading about how scientists have apparently proven that the brain structure and chemical makeup of homosexual persons are empirically different than those of heterosexual people. If this is true, it would be difficult to explain to a homosexual why the bible condemns something they supposedly don't have any control over. Interestingly enough I was also just reading an article about a man who was born homosexual but willingly went through reparative therapy and no longer has sexual desires for other men and is now just celibate. So that is a bit of a confusing matter that I would be glad to hear your thoughts on.
Anyways, I would like to thank you for being the voice of reason amid my situation and would be glad to hear more of what you have to say. Right now there is a fairly active post conversation I started in the god and science forum about Noah's ark. If you could take the time and scroll through some of the posts and share your thoughts, that would be great.

Take ten minutes and read chapter one of this ("What if God does not exist?"); starts on page 7 of the pdf, labeled page 1 in the text._

Jac3510 wrote:

ConfusedMan wrote:

jlay wrote:

Thank you for the caring repsonse. I wish I could say I was doing better with my faith right now like I said I would be in my earlier post, but there are still so many problems I am having intellectually right now with my faith. One of those talking heads is me! I am a thinker, and I cannot help but ask questions about the things I know about God and the bible. I sometimes wonder if my reasoning is clouded from being a fallen human, but when something doesn't make sense, it just doesn't make sense. I won't claim to know better than God, but I feel like things should simply be different somehow. Maybe years from now I will look back on this time and be relieved that I came through stronger, or maybe I'll look back and find I did the right and rational thing by leaving the faith. I don't know. All I know is that times are rough for me right now and I don't know what to do with myself.

I was reading through your last few posts. First, sorry to hear about your struggles and glad to have you here. I don't post as much as in the past, but might have something to offer in light of what you shared. I think one of the most interesting things about the human condition is our tendency to not be honest with ourselves. Hear me out. I promise, I'm not picking at you, but taking a sincere look at the concerns you've expressed. You say your issues are intellectual. I disagree. I'm not debating whether you have intellectual questions. You do. But your problem, as I see it, is primarily emotional. You said in the previous post that you are "scared" there is no God and no afterlife. The intellectual part of this has nothing to do with your feelings. Nothing personal, but that's a fact. Either these things are true or they aren't. Period. That's the intellectual ends of it. What we want to be true really isn't a matter of intelligence. When we fail to recognize this in ourselves, it can lead us down a path of ups and downs with doubt. For example, you earlier mentioned homosexuality and a genetic link. I can assure having read countless testimony and study that any biological 'cause' to homosexuality has no bearing on the truth claims of Christianity. If you have something to prove otherwise, I'm all ears. But, it's like saying color blindness, or Down's syndrome are evidence against the truth claims of the bible. It doesn't follow. Once we accept our emotional infancy we can realize that most of our doubts are rooted in emotion and not in intellectual areas. This better equips us to study the 'intellectual' issues without shipwrecking our faith every time someone publishes something that 'appears' to challenge the claims of Christianity.

Hello jlay. Thank you for concern. I guess what I was trying to convey was that whatever the facts are, it would inevitably affect my emotions, mainly in that if there is no personal god, then I would have to deal with thinking that there is no afterlife or ultimate justice. Sometimes my intelluctual musings translate into strong emtional reactions, so I assure you that they are seperate, but the emotions nonethless cloud how I should deal with the implications of my musings. I'm glad you mentioned the ressurection because it is exactly that which has sustained my belief in God so far. The ressurection and the following growth of christianty and Paul's conversion seem only explainable by way of God working His will.
The mention of homosexuality was a passing comment, but I'm glad you brought it up, because I have been reading about how scientists have apparently proven that the brain structure and chemical makeup of homosexual persons are empirically different than those of heterosexual people. If this is true, it would be difficult to explain to a homosexual why the bible condemns something they supposedly don't have any control over. Interestingly enough I was also just reading an article about a man who was born homosexual but willingly went through reparative therapy and no longer has sexual desires for other men and is now just celibate. So that is a bit of a confusing matter that I would be glad to hear your thoughts on.
Anyways, I would like to thank you for being the voice of reason amid my situation and would be glad to hear more of what you have to say. Right now there is a fairly active post conversation I started in the god and science forum about Noah's ark. If you could take the time and scroll through some of the posts and share your thoughts, that would be great.

Take ten minutes and read chapter one of this ("What if God does not exist?"); starts on page 7 of the pdf, labeled page 1 in the text._

It's funny that the text mentioned the moral argument. Along with the resurrection of Jesus, it's one of the other things that kept me from completely giving up on the God of the Bible. An impersonal God giving us morals seems dubious at best; why would a god give us morals if their are no moral consequences? Thank you again for helping me with the issue, and I want to let you know I am doing a lot better.

Jac3510 wrote:Very good. Looking forward to your reply. When you get a minute, read this one page (starting from the second paragraph), if you don't mind (and the first paragraph of the next). It should take you less than one minute. I would type it, but it would take me a lot longer than that! It's with respect to in what sense God is knowable and unknowable.

https://books.google.com/books?id=d2O1V ... &q&f=false

Finally getting back to this and regathering my thoughts......
Isaiah 55:9
My ways are not your ways and my thoughts not your thoughts'.
I see what you are saying about this referring to the unrepentant, Sinners need to forsake their ways and thoughts because they are not of God. We must do so to have fellowship with God. It is an encouragement for us to depend on Gods promise of redemtion. But it is also highlighting Gods transcendence. I'm sure you are aware, that a lot if not majority opinion on this verse is that it is also highlighting transcendence. The beauty of scripture is that there are often layers of meaning behind texts. God's infinite ways and knowledge that transends our understanding is a reoccurring theme in scripture, I am trying to keep this post from being too long, so I won't list them now but happy too, and I'm sure you are well aware of the verses.

The belief that God is unknowable , that He hasn't revealed Himself is not correct. He has revealed Himself as you stated, through creation, history, the bible, Jesus, self revelation ect. God is not unknowable. But that is not what I have been getting at. The link you gave me said 'Now, if God is intelligible in Himself, what little we know about Him may be almost nothing, but it is not nothing and it is infinitely more important than the rest'
I agree with this statement, what we do know is of upmost importance. We have truth, we have a finite knowledge of God personally and intellectually but here is where I think 2 mistakes are made, thinking we can know nothing about God and thinking we can know everything.
In your book in regards to chapter 5, you are justifying using philosophy to better understand the ways of God, using scripture to prove that philosophy is not 'bad' or unchristian. Firstly even though you say scripture does not say 'thou must not use philosophy' you are making assumptions that scripture is weighing into the debate at all. Which it is not. I understand that you are doing so to answer critics who use such verses to prove otherwise, but I think that is making the same mistake, using scripture to suggest something it doesn't. These verses are not lessons on the importance or non importance of philosophy in relation to God. I just don't think it is scripturally accurate to use that argument either way.
Reasoning about God is not wrong. Philosophy is certainly not worthless, or something that should be dismissed or ignored. I have a keen interest in philosophy but I understand it's limitations and our limitations.
Gods transendence doesn't mean we shouldn't bother reasoning but it does mean that His ways transends our reasoning.
The difference is to me obvious.
Knowing God and actually knowing God in His absolute, perfect, infinite self.
We know what has been revealed in scripture ect and it is on a 'need' to know basis. God has not revealed everything to us. Not only would we be incapable of understanding God fully limited by our brains capacity and our spiritual awareness but our language just doesn't have the words or concepts to fully understand.
There are some things we just don't know, we can speculate but we should always use wisdom and humility to understand and admit our limitations.

Now getting to the impassability of God, not subject to suffering, pain, or the ebb and flow of involuntary passions. I have read it described as God not experiencing feelings and emotions akin to human emotions.
I agree that God does not experience involuntary emotions and they are not to be understood as we experience them.
We know that Gods love never wavers or falters, that is unlike the experience of love we feel. The love we have for our children probably the closest thing but still far from an understanding of 'love' in the most purest, perfect sense.
God feels perfectly about everything to the right degree. Perfect unity within Himself.
God is love and scripture tells us that love is kind and patient. This does not conflict with God's anger. He is not out of control, counting to ten so He doesn't blow His top. Gods justice, wrath and anger is in perfect harmony within His nature. When we feel anger due to being wronged even to the point where justice is needed, the extent to which we desire justice is neither kind or patient, even if it's deserved. We get angry too easily, for too long, for the wrong reasons, to the wrong degree, at the wrong time. But God is not corrupt but perfect in the experience and exposition of His 'emotions'.
So anthropopathisms in scripture, using human emotions to explain Gods experience, is to a degree 'metaphorical' in the sense that Gods emotional experience, though analogous to ours is not the same. When scripture says God loves, it is not in the sense we understand or experience, the same with anger and all the of the 'emotions' ascribed to God throughout scripture. Limited to and by our experience and language.

What I disagree with is the notion that God does not feel at all.

The argument used is that Anthropomorphisms are not literal. Which is quite correct. God is said to have ears, hands, fingers, arms, feet ect. We know this is not correct as God is spirit. They are metaphors. Which are used as a language tool, not to render what is being said as pointless but to enhance and add emphasis. 'God's strong hand and outstretched arm' is a metaphor for conveying His mighty power and active involvement in delivering the Israelites from the Eyptians. God's nostrils is a graphic metaphorical expression of God opening up the Red Sea.
When metaphors are used they are not literal but there is still a very distinct literal message behind them.
If a person says they are so hungry they could eat a horse. Farmers don't need to lock up their livestock! They are not about to go out and start chomping down horses. Not literal. But the literal meaning behind it is, they are really, really hungry. It is still conveying a very real message just using non literal emphasis.
So the argument is that anthropopathisms are not literal and are to be taken within the same context as Anthropomorpisms.
I agree they are not literal in the way we experience 'emotion' so I agree to an extent.
When the argument is taken so far as to say that God does not feel these 'emotions' at all, just does not 'cut the mustard' for me.
By saying that, it is rendering the use of the language pointless.
Oh no, it is so we could understand if God could 'feel' we would know what He was feeling if He wasn't God but was human.
Right.
Makes perfect sense. Not.
So God is saying basically this..... I will use anger as example
If I could be feeling angry, which I can't because I can't feel anything but if I could I would be feeling pretty angry, but I'm not angry, just letting you know if I could feel that's what I would be feeling.
I think it is illogical. It is rendering all those times in scripture when God puts forward how He is feeling without meaning. That is not the role of metaphors and/or Anthropomorphisms, they are used to add meaning or emphasis albeit, non literal, but with a very literal, logical meaning behind them. To say that anthropopathisms are not literal to the degree of having zero meaning in relation to God when He is speaking of Himself is I believe taking anthropopathisms to a non literal degree that even metaphors and anthropomorphisms are not taken. But when there is preconceived idea that God is completely impassible with no scope for affections or feelings at all, some reasoning no matter how illogical would have to be employed to explain the numerous times God is referred in scripture to have 'emotion' to make the 'argument' stand.

I understand why people think God must not be able to feel because God is unchanging. The same yesterday, today and tomorrow. To experience affections, emotions, then a change has occured. We have gone from one state of being to another. One minute I was happy now I'm angry. God cannot change therefore He must not feel.
Firstly unlike us God 'feels' about a situation perfectly every time in every situation.
We react depending on our mood. If we are having a good day and are unstressed then our child does something wrong, it is water of a ducks back but the next day the same situation can occur and we react much harsher. It can snowball, once we are having a bad day, we can be in a bad mood and deal with all situations that day with our upset moody temperate.
God is not moody, He does not experience 'moods'. How he deals and 'feels' about a situation is always the same, always consistent and always in perfect fairness and harmony. The same a thousand yeras ago, or in a thousand years time.

Even when we say that God cannot 'feel' because that would produce a change in His being I think is looking at it through a lens of being human. If God can experience pleasure then a change has occured which means He couldn't have been perfect to begin with thus making Him not God. All these philosophical arguments that are using human constraints to understand the workings of God who is not limited by anything. Not limited by time. At all. Not constrained by it, not bound by it, He doesn't adhere to it, He created it and transends it.
The bible says God cannot change, so we understand it by a human experience, when we feel something we change so scripture must be saying that God doesn't feel. But scripture actually says the opposite so instead of doing linguistic gymnastics by anthropopathisms maybe it is our understanding that is flawed. So bound by time that we cannot comprehend how an experience or affections could be experienced by God and not result in change.
Change; to make or become different. To go from A to B. Completely bound within a linear time constraint.
God is not bound by a linear time constraint, He is everywhere at all time. There is no yesterday and tomorrow. Why can't God in His divine, incomprehensible awesomeness 'feel' without it actually causing any change in His being. Why can't He have affections without it implying a change from A to B?
No time
No A to B
No change
No feeling....... I don't think so.

Wow, sorry, that is too long.
I should have broken it up into a few posts.
I have been really busy, so I wrote some stuff down, went back to it, then lost what I wrote when my iPad had a spastic then I rewrote over a couple days and it seems I rambled on far too much lol
Oops

melanie wrote:Even when we say that God cannot 'feel' because that would produce a change in His being I think is looking at it through a lens of being human. If God can experience pleasure then a change has occured which means He couldn't have been perfect to begin with thus making Him not God. All these philosophical arguments that are using human constraints to understand the workings of God who is not limited by anything. Not limited by time. At all. Not constrained by it, not bound by it, He doesn't adhere to it, He created it and transends it.
The bible says God cannot change, so we understand it by a human experience, when we feel something we change so scripture must be saying that God doesn't feel. But scripture actually says the opposite so instead of doing linguistic gymnastics by anthropopathisms maybe it is our understanding that is flawed. So bound by time that we cannot comprehend how an experience or affections could be experienced by God and not result in change.
Change; to make or become different. To go from A to B. Completely bound within a linear time constraint.
God is not bound by a linear time constraint, He is everywhere at all time. There is no yesterday and tomorrow. Why can't God in His divine, incomprehensible awesomeness 'feel' without it actually causing any change in His being. Why can't He have affections without it implying a change from A to B?
No time
No A to B
No change
No feeling....... I don't think so.

Congrats Melanie.
Whether wrong or right, I think it's awesome that you try to wrap your mind around such things.
Your comments touch upon many deeper issues. One in particular I'd like to poke at is God's relationship to us personally in time.

In the several exchanges I've had with Jac, I haven't been satisfied with any reconciliation of God's immutability with God's personal relationship with us and time.
It seems either we must let go of what is known as God's strong immutability, or if we keep such then it seems inconceivable how God could really be personal with us in time.

This is also one reason why William Lane Craig believes God was timeless without creation, and freely chose to enter into temporality with His creative act in virtue of God's true relationship with the created order.

What is meant by those last words, "in virtue of God's true relationship with the created order"?
Well, it touches upon your words I bolded here above regarding God feeling.

Does God for example feel joy as a consequence of us coming to Christ?
If so, then to retain God's changelessness, well do we then say that God always eternally felt joy for our coming to Christ even before we existed?
OR, does God rejoice and feel joy when we come to Christ?
There seems to be only two options here.

It sounds great to give such questions quick treatment and say, "oh God felt joy forever and eternally so."
Well, "joy" is a positive feeling, but what if we explore more negative matters.
Is God eternally suffering in Christ, in some way being eternally hung of on the cross and suffering for our sins?
Or is God's suffering in Christ a thing of the past that ended at Christ's resurrection?
There again seems to be only two options here.

These issues largely surround the nature of time, in particular as it relates to God's eternality and timelessness.

There have been two options on time identified in philosophy:
1) A-Theory (which embraces time and tensed facts as real), and
2) B-Theory (which believes time is static, it's passing being more in our heads and not real).

In one of my last exchanges with Jac on time he said that he embraces neither.
But, when the options are like only "A" or only "B" then there is really no middle ground or other position.
If there is a third option, then it is one that I and many philosophers of time as I understand matters (and I'm by no means an expert here), are quite unaware to.

Time is a really hard issue for Divine Simplicity to reconcile with God who feels and is actually beside us in life.
Consider that, if God is timeless then God doesn't experience time. Therefore while God might know that Melanie came to Christ on x date, God would not know how long ago in the past from present day that would be.
And so, God remains timeless then God cannot really experience joy and touch you in the moment of your personal conversion. AND yet, many Christians report being touched by God in that particular moment they came to God. They felt God moving within. How is this possible if God isn't in the moment along side us?

Some like to say something like, God is timeless but interacts with us still in time.
This is just like me saying I've got no cake in me while eating the cake.

Contradictory words strung together may sound alright, but just because we string words together doesn't mean they make sense.
For example, "what is the shape of red?" It might makes sense strung together as a question, but such is really nonsense.

So someone might assert that God is timeless and affirm his strict immutability, that God never enters into time or becomes temporal...
BUT, to then to assert that Christ is no longer defeated by Satan in being nailed to the cross for all eternity in virtue of God's timelessness
-- well such seems to be just picking and choosing what one wants without paying complete heed to logic and reason.

Sometimes, we like to define things by what they are not.
And here, I think strong Divine Simplicity advocates like Jac do this of God.
In defining God by what He is not, it can sometimes place restraints upon God leading us to believe certain thinking of God is wrong...
By and large, such keep theological thinking largely on the straight and narrow, but then such can lead to us being trapped also and unable to affirm matters that seem quite sensible and intuitive.

I should here say, I've not read the to and fro exchanges between you and Jac, but just caught your last post.
So I'm not taking the side of anyone here, I'm not even really sure what those sides would be, but you touched upon something that I thought of adding further reflections to.
I must say I'm happy to see someone else rambling on other than myself or Jac. So happy to contribute to some ramblings to your own ramblings. Welcome to the club.

Can I add my ramblings too then?

God and time? That`s a tricky one, really, really hard, hadn`t really thought about it before and I am thinking as I type now. Christ said on the cross "It is finished" that to me, suggests God being within time. Like you say K, many of us feel God working within us so again that suggests God working within the framework of time. Yet surely God is outside of time?
I am sure God feels, I think He has to otherwise it just doesn`t work. We are sentinent beings, we are made in His image. It doesn`t make sense to me that God doesn`t feel. Do the angels in Heaven not rejoice at each soul that turns to Christ? That suggests feeling. I cannot get my head around a God that would create thinking, feeling beings if He Himself wasn`t like that. Unless we think and feel as a way to find our way home to God.

I think it says somewhere that we will rejoice in Heaven, there will be peace and love and all those things. Then we must be able to feel and it makes no sense that we would feel these things if God doesn`t.

Maybe God feels all our emotions at the same time? Do our feelings change who we are? Would feelings change who God was? Could He show mercy and offer Grace if He doesn`t feel? Maybe we struggle with this because we can only experience our feelings through the veil of time, maybe in eternity it`s different?

God has to feel, He says He is a jealous God, jealousy is a feeling.
He is a loving God, that`s a feeling.

See? Now I`m rambling!

One of the trickiest things we have to deal with as humans is trying to understand that which is so far above our understanding.
Especially God.
Since He made us in HIS image and even became one of us, IMO, God not only has feelings, He IS feelings.
In the words of Christ:
NO greater love exists than that of self-sacrifice ( paraphrasing of course John 15:13 ).

And God proved that when He suffered and physically died with Us, for US.

While it is not correct to view God as having human feelings because that would be limiting Him, it is correct that God does have feeling because if He didn't He would NOT be God because He would be inferiour to the beings He created that do.

Thanks, Mel (and all), for your thoughts. it wasn't too long! I have a lot of thoughts of my own, but I don't want to write another book. So give me a day or so if you would to cone up with something manageable. I'll only say here that I think we are in more agreement than not but that you nay be understandable drawing some incorrect conclusions from some of my statements and positions. Where there is substantive disagreement I think that is a major factor. Will say more later.