Evidence for God from Science

BW wrote:So note our concern is why you do not willing mention the groups you both are associated with? Maybe you have on another thread that I am not aware of. Even with that can you please let us know?

Hi BW. Like John the baptist I'd prefer to just be a voice in the wilderness. Whatever group I am or am not a part of shouldn't make any difference to the message. Preoccupation with groups never seems to bring glory to the Kingdom of Heaven. The fact that some people choose not to promote their various groups or organizations is not a sign of dishonesty, as Rick has suggested. At least in my case, it's an issue of wanting to deal with the message rather than the messenger.

In an earlier post Rick suggested that rain and I have some kind of agenda because we promote the same teachings. Not really. We're just interested in promoting the teachings of Jesus. If we were here promoting a particular group then you'd have much more merit to say we're promoting an "agenda". I am reminded of John 5:43, "I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive".

People here have alternated between talking about "wrong" teaching and "we're not all called to forsake all". If it is a matter of the individual discerning how he/she feels God is leading them to follow these teachings, then there is no problem; the individual will read both sides and decide for themselves. If you are concerned about wrong teaching, then show it in your discussion. Rain has asked for any scriptural indication that Jesus did not want all of his followers to make the same lifestyle choices that he and his followers made. We've still not seen that evidence. Instead people talk about how obvious it is that we cannot live without giving our time to working for mammon. On the other hand we've given many examples of thousands of people applying these teachings we are promoting.

The record show that Jesus was talking to an "innumerable multitude" and "a great multitude" for two of his "sell and forsake all" teachings. The scripture clearly shows that, yet people hear come back with the same responses that these teachings were only meant for specific people. Acts 2 and 4 records thousands of people forsaking all and sharing all things in common, yet that evidence has not been addressed. The closest Rick could come to a response was to say that it doesn't work that way in America and that the American people are generous. He didn't address the scripture at all. When he is shown the teaching from Jesus he says it was only for specific people of Jesus' day. When he is shown evidence of thousands of people doing it he says it won't work for us today. There's always some excuse for why generous (i.e. those with lots of money) Christians today should be the exception to the teachings Jesus gave on how to confront our greed. How ironic.

BW wrote:No where was Rick saying we will stop your postings here.

That's true. The words he used were, "Before we continue with this discussion, you need to address something I brought up". He asserts again, "This needs to be answered". It is not phrased as a request. It is phrased as an instruction. He does not say he will stop my postings. He only implies it, which is the concern I expressed in my response to that post.

The OP had nothing to do with the personal lives of any person other than to use examples of how Jesus and his followers behaved.

On a similar note, Rick said something about me being in the "the middle of Africa". I'm curious to know why he asked about Africa. Was it a random location?

rain wrote:
And Jesus clearly teaches his disciples to ''Go into all the world, teaching people to obey all things that I have commanded YOU''. There's that hymōn again This verse has been repeatedly mentioned throughout this discussion as evidence that Jesus does want his disciples to teach others to do what he taught them to do. I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on this, as I feel this verse is significant?



RickD wrote:

Yes. Jesus did tell the disciples to do as he commanded them to do.


rain wrote:
This is the closest you have come to answering the above question, yet you still side step it. The issue is not whether Jesus told his disciples to do as he commanded them to do, but whether Jesus told his disciples to teach OTHERS to do as he commanded THEM to do. Can you see the difference? It would be good to hear your thoughts on that

Ok. I see what you're saying, and why you think I'm avoiding your question. I apologize. I wasn't avoiding. Yes, Jesus told his disciples to teach others to do as he commanded. I have no problem with that. I have a problem with what you choose to believe Jesus commanded his disciples to teach others. Specifically, the idea that we are commanded to abandon all money and possessions, and go live in a commune somewhere.

rain wrote:
Really, this verse from Matthew which you, and others have had such a hard time acknowledging really gets to heart of this issue for me. It's incredibly clear that Jesus expects us to do as his disciples did. You say I am misinterpreting scripture, but I'm just saying ''Look, Jesus tells us to do what his disciples did''. What from the teachings of Jesus can you present to suggest that he DOESN'T want us to do what he commanded his disciples?

So, if I'm understanding you correctly, you are saying that I and others here, are choosing which commands to follow. And you ARE NOT choosing which commands to follow, because you follow all the commands that Jesus gave his disciples? Is that accurate?

rain wrote:
There are other issues from your posts that I could respond to, but I think there is no point, until/unless we can get some agreement on this verse from Matthew 28:20, because otherwise I'm going to keep saying ''we need to do what Jesus commanded the disciples to do'', and you're going to keep saying ''oh, but your reading into scripture, what Jesus told the disciples isn't for us''.

And again, you are reading something into what I'm saying, if you think I'm saying that "what Jesus told the disciples isn't for us''. It depends on the context. All that Jesus told the disciples in scripture, is FOR us. Similarly, all that God told Israel, that is recorded in scripture, is FOR us. That doesn't mean that everything written in scripture, is something we MUST FOLLOW. If you or anyone else says we MUST follow something(besides the duty we have to believe on Christ for salvation), then I would question if you are promoting a works based salvation, and a false gospel.

Yes, Jesus said to forsake all, He also said we are to hate our fathers and mothers, do you?

Look, if you want to read things out of context and without proper understanding, that's up to you.
Fact is that His disciples not only did NOT hate their mothers and fathers, they did NOT forsake all material goods either.
What they did was NOT prioritize them over Christ and others.
Heck, Lazarus ( whom Jesus loved and resurrected) and his sisters had a home.
The women that followed Jesus and His Apostles took care of them from their "material goods".

Again:

"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." (John 13:34-35)

Please note that Jesus does not say, 'By having fewer material possessions all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have fewer material things than the people around you'.

The whole point of forsaking material goods and even "hating" family was to NOT prioritize these things over belief in God and belief that Christ Is our Lord and Saviour.

windy,

I'm growing tired of your misrepresentations of what I actually said. All the things in your last post that inaccurately describe what my words actually said, just shows how you also misrepresent what scripture actually says. I'm going to point out all the mistakes you attributed to what I said. And if you continue misrepresenting my words so blatantly, you will be heavily moderated. It is unacceptable, and will not be tolerated. How can we get back to the topic, if I have to keep correcting your mistakes?

Hi BW. Like John the baptist I'd prefer to just be a voice in the wilderness. Whatever group I am or am not a part of shouldn't make any difference to the message. Preoccupation with groups never seems to bring glory to the Kingdom of Heaven. The fact that some people choose not to promote their various groups or organizations is not a sign of dishonesty, as Rick has suggested. At least in my case, it's an issue of wanting to deal with the message rather than the messenger.

I never suggested that if you choose not to promote your group, you are being dishonest. I simply asked you or rain to confirm what I already knew. That you both belonged to the same group. And I thanked rain for his honesty, which in no way implied that you were being dishonest.

In an earlier post Rick suggested that rain and I have some kind of agenda because we promote the same teachings. Not really. We're just interested in promoting the teachings of Jesus. If we were here promoting a particular group then you'd have much more merit to say we're promoting an "agenda". I am reminded of John 5:43, "I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive".

I did not suggest that you and rain have an agenda. Reread my post. I said:

windy,
I didn't say nor imply that rain was being dishonest. I just thanked him for being honest. We have had more than our fair share of people coming to this board with the specific purpose of pushing their unbiblical beliefs, or to push some kind of agenda. Then, when you and rain both came to the board and started posting about a subject that I cannot recall ever being discussed in the 5 plus years I've been here, caution flags start to go off in my head. I wasn't asking you or rain to share anything about your personal life that wasn't obvious from what you already posted. You both believe, and are promoting the same thing. And you both came on around the same time. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to deduce that you two probably live in the same community. I just wanted it to be in the open, so those reading can understand.

I explained to you why I asked if you two belonged to the same group. My telling you that people have come to the board with an agenda, is not the same as saying that YOU have an agenda. I have not concluded that you have an agenda.

People here have alternated between talking about "wrong" teaching and "we're not all called to forsake all". If it is a matter of the individual discerning how he/she feels God is leading them to follow these teachings, then there is no problem; the individual will read both sides and decide for themselves. If you are concerned about wrong teaching, then show it in your discussion. Rain has asked for any scriptural indication that Jesus did not want all of his followers to make the same lifestyle choices that he and his followers made. We've still not seen that evidence. Instead people talk about how obvious it is that we cannot live without giving our time to working for mammon. On the other hand we've given many examples of thousands of people applying these teachings we are promoting.

That's not how discussions work. If you come here with a belief you have, that all believers are commanded to sell all possessions, give away all money, and live in a commune, the onus is on you to prove it.

The record show that Jesus was talking to an "innumerable multitude" and "a great multitude" for two of his "sell and forsake all" teachings. The scripture clearly shows that, yet people hear come back with the same responses that these teachings were only meant for specific people. Acts 2 and 4 records thousands of people forsaking all and sharing all things in common, yet that evidence has not been addressed. The closest Rick could come to a response was to say that it doesn't work that way in America and that the American people are generous. He didn't address the scripture at all. When he is shown the teaching from Jesus he says it was only for specific people of Jesus' day. When he is shown evidence of thousands of people doing it he says it won't work for us today. There's always some excuse for why generous (i.e. those with lots of money) Christians today should be the exception to the teachings Jesus gave on how to confront our greed. How ironic.

Of course I addressed the scripture. I said I disagree with your interpretation of what Jesus said. You think forsaking all means that we all are commanded to give/sell all our possessions, get rid of our money, do not perform a job if we get paid with money, and go live in a commune somewhere. I disagree.

On a similar note, Rick said something about me being in the "the middle of Africa". I'm curious to know why he asked about Africa. Was it a random location?

I said:

More importantly, your eisegesis that leads you to believe what the point of your OP is. That all Christians are commanded by Christ, to sell all of their possessions, and join a commune in the middle of Africa, or wherever.

I didn't ask you anything about Africa. There was no question in my statement.

There is a passage in which Jesus is asked EXPLICITLY what works we are to do that are pleasing to God, ) so that we may work the works of God.Jesus replies explicitly also:
John 6:

Words to the People
26 Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. 27 Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.” 28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”


An explicit question of what works we should do is answered by an explicit reply so that none should be confused:

Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

Just as we don't take Luke 14:26-27 literally, we don't take Luke 14:33 literally.

These verses talk about a willingness for those who want to be disciples. This is a message to the disciples, and for us, that we should be willing to forsake our families, or our possessions, if it comes to that.

It is not a commandment to all believers to hate their families, give up all their possessions, and own nothing.

I do not like religion because it takes your focus off of Jesus and puts the focus on all the things they think they must do to be saved,justified,etc when Jesus already justified us.It is sheer arrogance to think man can add one thing to salvation,yet still today man thinks he can add on to what Jesus did based on what he/she does,it is a shame and is doing nothing to save them,justify them,etc.These works people think they must do to be more right with God are not doing what they think it is and it is useless.

These people are tricked by Satan to think that they must do these things,it brings us closer to God,makes God love us more,etc when if their relationship with Jesus was right they would already be doing what they are supposed to doing.Religious works is a sign they are not right with Jesus and they think by doing this or that it will please God,etc when what will please God is realizing what Jesus already did to justify you not what you must do to add to it.
More than works.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoVWo7YeO4w

windywherever wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:You know we all have our weaknesses,so try to think in these terms when you see Jesus addressing things to certian people.

Hi there. I'm not so sure about this, "Jesus was only talking to specific people" theory. From what I understand the "gospel" is another way of saying, "good news" and that the gospel is for all people. When Jesus said, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand" I don't think he meant that only certain people of his day should repent, while Christians of today are free not to repent. The teaching is relevant today because it has meaning and purpose. It's part of the values of Heaven. People should turn from their worldly, sinful ways.

I think the same is true for other teachings of Jesus, like his teachings on materialism. In Matthew 28:19-20 Jesus tells his followers to go into all the world teaching others to do what they themselves were taught to do. Jesus teachings aren't just a list of rules. They are the values of Heaven. We practice citizenship in the kingdom of Heaven when we apply the values of Heaven; this is the purpose of Jesus' teachings.

Windy,

I know you have quite a few posts to reply to. But when you get a chance could you explain something for me? Abel was addressing the point of the OP, about Jesus command to disciples, and the RYR, when he mentioned Jesus addressing certain people's weaknesses. But then, you mentioned the gospel, and how it's for all people. Are you saying that forsaking material things, as what you believe is a command from God, is part of the gospel? In other words, just as we all must believe in Christ, we all must forsake material things?

windywherever wrote:

Paul wrote:That said, having materials things ( like a home or a car for example) is NOT the same as being slave to them, not the same as being "slave" to them.

Do you think it is an indication of being a "slave" to money when you believe you cannot live without it? Think about what money actually does (or doesn't do). It does not make food grow. it does not make rain. It does not build homes. It does not sew clothing. It does not create warmth. It does not create animals and it does not create humans. It does not sustain life and it does not create wisdom or knowledge. Money doesn't do anything. The only value it has is the value we choose to give it. And yet the majority of the world believe they will die without it. Yes, that sounds like slavery.

Paul wrote:Nothing is more important than God but God does NOT ask us to live on the street naked and asking strangers for food for our children when we are able to provide for them and for ourselves and, more importantly, for others.

Jesus asks that we choose to work for love rather than for money and the things money can buy. He says we should NOT allow worry about food and clothing stop us from stepping out in faith, because God knows what we need.

Now look at your comments. You've given this shocking picture of people and their kids living naked on the street. It certainly is a fearful picture you paint. Surely no one will believe what Jesus said when they are so often exposed to such scary illustrations of what a life of working for love (instead of money) could be like. Fear, fear, fear.

God asks us to lay our lives down for him. But hey, that's probably another one of those teachings for the others guys...

Hey Windy.
This is in response to this post and the one above. My copy and paste doesn't seem to be working and I'm very busy so I apologise I don't have the time to break it down.

When Jesus said to not worry about food or clothing, he didn't mean to not eat, or clothe yourself. Financial issues have effected people across the ages. It had always been a big concern and caused endless stress. To not worry about it means exactly what it says, to not worry. To not allow yourself to become consumed by the worry, to trust and lean on God.
To not spend endless energy worried about where your next meal will come from. It is a lesson in trust.

Jesus was a Carpenter until the age of 30. He would have been paid a carpenters wage, and used this to buy food, clothing ect. Until He was called by Our Father to start His ministry.
God will call us by His will in whatever capacity he sees fit.

To take up you cross is to live for Christ. To trust Him and in Him. To lean on Him for wisdom and understanding, to let Him lead us on our path. Forsaking all according to His purpose in our lives. It takes faith and discernment to realise that path and often quite a few road blocks.

The only value money can have is the value we choose to give it. You are right.
We can serve money instead of Christ.
The lesson isn't to quit your job, never make another dime and move to a commune. If that's what people choose then that is their choice but that is not the lesson.
The lesson is to not serve money as our master. It is a lesson in greed.
Jesus also speaks of hating our mother and father, the lesson is to not put family before God.
When are told to cut of our right arm, it's not a lesson in amputation but rather examining our sinful behaviour.

Jesus is our greatest teacher, the lessons He taught are relevant then and now.
Forsaking all, is a lesson in sacrifice.
Giving up things of value for the consideration and benefit of others. Every time we do that for others we are forsaking it in Jesus name.
Doing something out of duty is different to doing so out of love.
The Pharisees were very good at religious piety. They reached into their pockets and gave deeply but not out of love.

To give to another even when we need it ourselves, out of empathy is done so in love.
It is not what we do, in as much as why we do it. God sees our every motivation. It is the condition of the heart.
I could read what you have written here in this thread and think then it is my duty to sell everything I own and give it to the poor. There is no real love in that. It is rooted in obligation.
Duty and obligation is works.

If money is not our master then we are not a slave to greed. When we are generous with others it is the light and love of Christ shining through.
If the world is not our master then we are not a slave to works.
It is the world the equates obligation with rewards.

If you sell your belongings, don't work for pay, have no dealings with money then you are living for Christ, then you are living as a Christian should, no longer a slave to the world.
It's still living in slavery.
It is shacking yourself to works. 'If' plus 'do' equals reward.

Love and faith is what separates us from the world and sets us free.
That is why Christianity is unlike any other Religion.
We are free. Christ has set us free.

To live for Christ and not for the world means that He is our king, our Saviour. That we navigate our way through the world with Christ in our hearts. We treat everyone with love.
Running away from the world is not conquering spirituality it is hiding. Lest we might get caught up in it and stumble.
We live in the world not for the world.
It is where our motivation and heart lies.
We store our riches in heaven, by the love we show for others which is grounded in our love for God.
Being able to live in this world but keeping eyes fixed to Christ.

Greed is a condition of the heart, not the wallet.
Removing ourselves from all dealings with money will not cure greed, any more than removing oneself from all mirrors will cure vanity.

When it said to forsake all, would that include devices such as iPads, computers ect.?
Surely the Internet and having luxuries such as wifi would have to be included also?
I'm curious how it is preached to forsake ALL whilst typing on your computer using an Internet sevice that requires monthly payment.

@windy

The only things holding you back are the things you don't want to let go. You need to forsake the evil which comes out of the heart. That is the core of Christ's message, all else is merely your own idea of being righteous.

melanie wrote:When it said to forsake all, would that include devices such as iPads, computers ect.?
Surely the Internet and having luxuries such as wifi would have to be included also?
I'm curious how it is preached to forsake ALL whilst typing on your computer using an Internet sevice that requires monthly payment.

Hi Melanie,

In Acts 2:44-45, it says ''And all that believed were together, and had all things in common. And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need''. In Acts 4:32,34-35,it says, ''And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and one soul, neither said any of them that ought of the things that he possessed were his own, but they had all things in common. Neither was there any among them that lacked, for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold. And laid them down at the Apostles feet, and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need''.

The picture we get here from the early church is of people forsaking what they owned, i.e. selling what they have (as per Jesus' in instructions to would be disciples), and then sharing all things in common. It's not a question about never using anything again, or never wearing clothes again, or using computers, etc. but an issue of private vs communal ownership, getting people away from the idea that ''This is mine'' to ''This is ours''. It's what the Kingdom of Heaven will be like, an eternity of sharing with one another in community.

I hope that helps to explain where there is congruency between people forsaking all THEY own, but still being able to share possessions with other believers, where no one owns anything, but where we share all things in common.

Oh, t would be good to hear any scriptural references you may have to suggest that Jesus doesn't want us to do these teachings, as that would be helpful.

rain wrote:

melanie wrote:When it said to forsake all, would that include devices such as iPads, computers ect.?
Surely the Internet and having luxuries such as wifi would have to be included also?
I'm curious how it is preached to forsake ALL whilst typing on your computer using an Internet sevice that requires monthly payment.

Hi Melanie,

In Acts 2:44-45, it says ''And all that believed were together, and had all things in common. And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need''. In Acts 4:32,34-35,it says, ''And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and one soul, neither said any of them that ought of the things that he possessed were his own, but they had all things in common. Neither was there any among them that lacked, for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold. And laid them down at the Apostles feet, and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need''.

The picture we get here from the early church is of people forsaking what they owned, i.e. selling what they have (as per Jesus' in instructions to would be disciples), and then sharing all things in common. It's not a question about never using anything again, or never wearing clothes again, or using computers, etc. but an issue of private vs communal ownership, getting people away from the idea that ''This is mine'' to ''This is ours''. It's what the Kingdom of Heaven will be like, an eternity of sharing with one another in community.

I hope that helps to explain where there is congruency between people forsaking all THEY own, but still being able to share possessions with other believers, where no one owns anything, but where we share all things in common.

Oh, t would be good to hear any scriptural references you may have to suggest that Jesus doesn't want us to do these teachings, as that would be helpful.

Luke 14:33
In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.
So this isn't referring to shared treasure here on earth just individual treasures?
As long as affluence and worldly desires are desired communally then it's okay?
Interesting.
Is not a family a commune of sorts, just a little smaller. Sharing everything you have with your husband, wife, children, Mother, Father ect.
Are you sure that you're not using scripture to fit in with your circumstance? Whilst suggesting others are doing the same

PaulSacramento wrote:There is a passage in which Jesus is asked EXPLICITLY what works we are to do that are pleasing to God, ) so that we may work the works of God.Jesus replies explicitly also:
John 6:

Words to the People
26 Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. 27 Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.” 28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”


An explicit question of what works we should do is answered by an explicit reply so that none should be confused:

Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

Hi Paul,

Thanks for bringing up a bible reference, however, the verse you highlighted doesn't contradict what Windy and I have been saying about forsaking all. You see, we believe that to believe in Jesus means to actually believe what he says. We're asking the question how can you say you believe in Jesus, yet not do the things that he says? Jesus himself asked this question in Luke 6:36, where he says, ''Why do you call me Lord Lord, yet refuse to do what I say?''.

Again, what we are looking for are verses that support yours (and others) interpretation that the same teachings he gave to his disciples back then are not applicable to modern day Christians.Thanks.

rain wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:There is a passage in which Jesus is asked EXPLICITLY what works we are to do that are pleasing to God, ) so that we may work the works of God.Jesus replies explicitly also:
John 6:

Words to the People
26 Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. 27 Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.” 28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”


An explicit question of what works we should do is answered by an explicit reply so that none should be confused:

Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

Hi Paul,

Thanks for bringing up a bible reference, however, the verse you highlighted doesn't contradict what Windy and I have been saying about forsaking all. You see, we believe that to believe in Jesus means to actually believe what he says. We're asking the question how can you say you believe in Jesus, yet not do the things that he says? Jesus himself asked this question in Luke 6:36, where he says, ''Why do you call me Lord Lord, yet refuse to do what I say?''.

Again, what we are looking for are verses that support yours (and others) interpretation that the same teachings he gave to his disciples back then are not applicable to modern day Christians.Thanks.

What about the idea that your interpretation of those verses, and the meaning of forsaking all, to follow Christ, isn't literal. Just like the verses in Luke 14:26-27, shouldn't be interpreted literally?