Evidence for God from Science

Philip wrote:Even Jesus told his disciples to carry a sword - the handgun of the day.

Really, you're looking to Jesus for justification to carry guns?
Don't invoke Christ's name, because that is a serious misrepresentation and insult.

I'm over the US issue of the gun-death link. Here's an insight Christianity should provide us with: We can all be that "bad guy" because it's in our nature to oppose God. Really, I think all has been said. And, by and large there is a lot of agreement between all when all the emotion is cut out.

BUT, your small comment there merits a whole new perhaps more important discussion of its own.

Jesus didn't need weapons for protection any more then He feared the storms while out on a boat.
As Christ said later on after the two swords were obtained, "do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels?"

Perhaps it should be this quote of Jesus' you should pay attention to:

• Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword. (Matt 26:52)

Someone said to me recently, that the gun today is equivalent to the sword back then.
So then, what of an entire society within a nation who strongly believe that it is some innate right to take up guns, many guns? Surely, if we apply Jesus' words, many within that same society with perish by those guns. Those looking to use Christ for support will find zero unless they rip Scripture apart in Ku Klux Klan fashion.

Rather, in Luke 22 the reason Jesus gave for taking up swords, was because that which was written must be fulfilled in Him, ‘AND HE WAS NUMBERED WITH TRANSGRESSORS’. Jesus never said to take up swords for protection but rather so that He could fulfill His purpose on Earth. Jesus makes a reference to Isaiah 53 where we read some rather prophetic words:

• 1Who has believed our message
  and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
  2He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
  and like a root out of dry ground.
  He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
  nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
  3He was despised and rejected by mankind,
  a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
  Like one from whom people hide their faces
  he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
  4Surely he took up our pain
  and bore our suffering,
  yet we considered him punished by God,
  stricken by him, and afflicted.
  5But he was pierced for our transgressions,
  he was crushed for our iniquities;
  the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
  and by his wounds we are healed.
  6We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
  each of us has turned to our own way;
  and the Lord has laid on him
  the iniquity of us all.
  7He was oppressed and afflicted,
  yet he did not open his mouth;
  he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
  and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
  so he did not open his mouth.
  8By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
  Yet who of his generation protested?
  For he was cut off from the land of the living;
  for the transgression of my people he was punished.
  9He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
  and with the rich in his death,
  though he had done no violence,
  nor was any deceit in his mouth.
  10Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
  and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
  he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
  and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
  11After he has suffered,
  he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
  by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
  and he will bear their iniquities.
  12Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
  and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
  because he poured out his life unto death,
  and was numbered with the transgressors.
  For he bore the sin of many,
  and made intercession for the transgressors.

His Disciples expected Jesus to be their Messiah, who would rescue them from Roman rule through conquest.
Jesus never said what the swords were for, but his followers obviously thought Jesus was about to rise up and make things finally happen! And, all Jesus' other followers who were with him.

Then when the Jewish high priest and elders came to seize Jesus, one follower rushed to Jesus' defense and cut of the ear of the soldier. What did Jesus do? He said, "stop, no more!" and healed the person.

No, Jesus was teaching them a lesson that ALL his followers would only understand in retrospect. Perhaps, the cutting off of the ear hardened the High Priest and elders all the more against Jesus, His healing adding coals of fires upon their heads (cf. Proverbs 25:21-22; Romans 12:20-21).

I seriously question those who fear death and yet claim to follow Christ. I'm no pacifist and the weak should be protected. There is a law and order that needs to be kept, and governments are suppose to fulfill that role and keep evil in check.

I do not fear for my life, even in death. This should enable me to try love those who'd take my life, those who hate us and to try and show them hope and meaning, rather than existential issues about life's ultimate meaninglessness which appears what the main reason for these people acting out. Our fight isn't against flesh and blood, but the invisible rulers of this world.

For us Christians, WE should be the ones leading by example after that of Christ. Your arguments Philip, seem to show someone who is ruled by fear. What Christ teaches me is that fear is cast out with love, not a gun or the sword. This isn't a left vs. right issue, it isn't a religious issue (so don't make it one), but it is a deeply embedded cultural issue that perhaps arose out of America fighting for independence and the colonizing of America, "Wild West", etc.

To Christians there is nothing to worry about; 24“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. 25“He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal.

Christians have a right to self defense to protect them and their family and a gun is great for self defense one of the best guns you can have for protection of your home is a sawed off 12 gauge shot gun because if an intruder comes into your house trying to do harm it is less likely you will miss if you shoot especially if you were awakened out of sleep because of noise and are still half a sleep.

Kurieuo: Really, you're looking to Jesus for justification to carry guns? Don't invoke Christ's name, because that is a serious misrepresentation and insult.

OK, Kurieuo, you don't have to put on your sanctimonious, mock outrage on. Of COURSE, Jesus' meaning might not be so obvious. However, He IS referring to the obvious dangers His disciples would soon face. And He does mention common utilitarian items designed for specific uses. But IF you are going to use Scripture to try to endorse passiveness and pacifist sensibilities, I think you are greatly mistaken. Why did God have Israel create an army - armed with WEAPONS???!!! Why didn't He just want them all to be PRAYER warriors?

Fearful? No! Practical, a realist? Absolutely! Did God not give us a brain to perceive dangers and to do OUR part to protect our families? I never owned a gun until about 3 years ago, and I'll be 58 this week! But I came to realize it's a practical tool for protection. Yes, my faith is NOT in my guns, but in the Lord's protection. But He expects me to do my part, not ONLY in prayer and faith, but also to the best of my ability in prudent ways. K, do you wear a seatbelt when you ride the highway? Or do you just pray and have faith in God so that you don't need the protection of a nylon strap and airbags? Of, course, I'm sure you undertake all manner of precautions due to the hazardous potential of many things. But by your logic, that shows walking in fear, a lack of faith.

The passion I have is NOT for guns, but for my rights to protect those I love in a way I see reasonable in relation to widely known potential threats. I don't like emotional arguments or political correctness. And so people that think a law-abiding person shouldn't be able to legally own a gun, that don't understand criminals will still have and easily obtain them - well, that really ticks me off! I pray I'll never have to use my gun. So, do I have faith that God will never allow me to ever be in a position where I might need to defend myself against dangerous people? But why should I believe something that newspapers daily show me Christians facing such dangers - in which they are sometimes tragically killed. Was their faith too weak to avoid such things - or have they not also lived in a sinful world filled with threatening and dangerous people. Maybe even Christian cops don't need guns - maybe police departments should make them optional for those of such spiritual sensibilities? Do you think it's a lack of faith for a Christian to own, or to desire to own, a gun?

Let's just please don't let this gun issue divide us. If you don't think you need a gun I will respect your decision however I hope you do the same for those who choose to have a gun for protection.

Kurieuo wrote:

Philip wrote:Even Jesus told his disciples to carry a sword - the handgun of the day.

Really, you're looking to Jesus for justification to carry guns?
Don't invoke Christ's name, because that is a serious misrepresentation and insult.

I'm over the US issue of the gun-death link. Here's an insight Christianity should provide us with: We can all be that "bad guy" because it's in our nature to oppose God. Really, I think all has been said. And, by and large there is a lot of agreement between all when all the emotion is cut out.

BUT, your small comment there merits a whole new perhaps more important discussion of its own.

Jesus didn't need weapons for protection any more then He feared the storms while out on a boat.
As Christ said later on after the two swords were obtained, "do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels?"

Perhaps it should be this quote of Jesus' you should pay attention to:

• Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword. (Matt 26:52)

Someone said to me recently, that the gun today is equivalent to the sword back then.
So then, what of an entire society within a nation who strongly believe that it is some innate right to take up guns, many guns? Surely, if we apply Jesus' words, many within that same society with perish by those guns. Those looking to use Christ for support will find zero unless they rip Scripture apart in Ku Klux Klan fashion.

Rather, in Luke 22 the reason Jesus gave for taking up swords, was because that which was written must be fulfilled in Him, ‘AND HE WAS NUMBERED WITH TRANSGRESSORS’. Jesus never said to take up swords for protection but rather so that He could fulfill His purpose on Earth. Jesus makes a reference to Isaiah 53 where we read some rather prophetic words:

• 1Who has believed our message
  and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
  2He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
  and like a root out of dry ground.
  He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
  nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
  3He was despised and rejected by mankind,
  a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
  Like one from whom people hide their faces
  he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
  4Surely he took up our pain
  and bore our suffering,
  yet we considered him punished by God,
  stricken by him, and afflicted.
  5But he was pierced for our transgressions,
  he was crushed for our iniquities;
  the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
  and by his wounds we are healed.
  6We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
  each of us has turned to our own way;
  and the Lord has laid on him
  the iniquity of us all.
  7He was oppressed and afflicted,
  yet he did not open his mouth;
  he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
  and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
  so he did not open his mouth.
  8By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
  Yet who of his generation protested?
  For he was cut off from the land of the living;
  for the transgression of my people he was punished.
  9He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
  and with the rich in his death,
  though he had done no violence,
  nor was any deceit in his mouth.
  10Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
  and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
  he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
  and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
  11After he has suffered,
  he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
  by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
  and he will bear their iniquities.
  12Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
  and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
  because he poured out his life unto death,
  and was numbered with the transgressors.
  For he bore the sin of many,
  and made intercession for the transgressors.

His Disciples expected Jesus to be their Messiah, who would rescue them from Roman rule through conquest.
Jesus never said what the swords were for, but his followers obviously thought Jesus was about to rise up and make things finally happen! And, all Jesus' other followers who were with him.

Then when the Jewish high priest and elders came to seize Jesus, one follower rushed to Jesus' defense and cut of the ear of the soldier. What did Jesus do? He said, "stop, no more!" and healed the person.

No, Jesus was teaching them a lesson that ALL his followers would only understand in retrospect. Perhaps, the cutting off of the ear hardened the High Priest and elders all the more against Jesus, His healing adding coals of fires upon their heads (cf. Proverbs 25:21-22; Romans 12:20-21).

I seriously question those who fear death and yet claim to follow Christ. I'm no pacifist and the weak should be protected. There is a law and order that needs to be kept, and governments are suppose to fulfill that role and keep evil in check.

I do not fear for my life, even in death. This should enable me to try love those who'd take my life, those who hate us and to try and show them hope and meaning, rather than existential issues about life's ultimate meaninglessness which appears what the main reason for these people acting out. Our fight isn't against flesh and blood, but the invisible rulers of this world.

For us Christians, WE should be the ones leading by example after that of Christ. Your arguments Philip, seem to show someone who is ruled by fear. What Christ teaches me is that fear is cast out with love, not a gun or the sword. This isn't a left vs. right issue, it isn't a religious issue (so don't make it one), but it is a deeply embedded cultural issue that perhaps arose out of America fighting for independence and the colonizing of America, "Wild West", etc.

To Christians there is nothing to worry about; 24“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. 25“He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal.

Its interesting when I put up the story of having a home intruder, a couple of you said I should get a gun...my husband's response was way different. He told me to go take self defense classes. I think that option is a way better one. Guns arent the only way to protect yourself. But then I live in a country that isn't as over run with guns as the US.

There almost feels like an attitude here of 'If you can't beat them, join them' with having a gun

abelcainsbrother wrote:Let's just please don't let this gun issue divide us. If you don't think you need a gun I will respect your decision however I hope you do the same for those who choose to have a gun for protection.

We just wont be turning up at your house late at night unexpected

Wanting to protect yourself and family is fine up until a point. We are told to lay down our lives as well...which is not to be driven by the same fear a non christian may feel after reading the newspaper.

Im not saying guns should have no place in society, Im just saying they shouldn't necessarily be in every place

Nessa wrote:Its interesting when I put up the story of having a home intruder, a couple of you said I should get a gun...my husband's response was way different. He told me to go take self defense classes. I think that option is a way better one. Guns arent the only way to protect yourself. But then I live in a country that isn't as over run with guns as the US.

There almost feels like an attitude of 'If you can't beat them, join them' with having a gun - regarding some attitudes here

Maybe I'm missing something about NZ that's different from America. If someone invades a home in the US, there's a good chance that he's all cracked out, or high on meth, and is looking for something of value to sell for drug money.

So Nessa,

Seeing as you're probably 5' 2", 110 lbs, being a green belt in karate, would do you no good against a cracked out man.

Do home intruders in NZ politely leave when they see a woman is home? Because otherwise, self defense classes aren't going to do a whole lot for you.

If someone invades my home, I take that as a threat to my family's lives. And I will use any means necessary to protect their lives.

Laying down one's life for Christ, doesn't apply here.

Should this 12 year old girl have taken Jiu jitsu classes? Or maybe just said, "please don't rape me kind sir."
http://m.news9.com/story.aspx?story=198 ... tId=112032

RickD wrote:

Nessa wrote:Its interesting when I put up the story of having a home intruder, a couple of you said I should get a gun...my husband's response was way different. He told me to go take self defense classes. I think that option is a way better one. Guns arent the only way to protect yourself. But then I live in a country that isn't as over run with guns as the US.

There almost feels like an attitude of 'If you can't beat them, join them' with having a gun - regarding some attitudes here

Maybe I'm missing something about NZ that's different from America. If someone invades a home in the US, there's a good chance that he's all cracked out, or high on meth, and is looking for something of value to sell for drug money.

So Nessa,

Seeing as you're probably 5' 2", 110 lbs, being a green belt in karate, would do you no good against a cracked out man.

Do home intruders in NZ politely leave when they see a woman is home? Because otherwise, self defense classes aren't going to do a whole lot for you.

If someone invades my home, I take that as a threat to my family's lives. And I will use any means necessary to protect their lives.

Laying down one's life for Christ, doesn't apply here.

Omg Rick, im 5'3...dont make me any shorter..Im short enough already
Guessing how much a lady weighs is just asking for trouble

My height and weight dont necessarily put me at a disadvantage if I am using good self defense techniques.

Laying down our lives has everything to do with this - we arent meant to hold onto our lives in the same way a non christian does. We have a hope beyond death. What about stephen who got stoned...and paul who said to die is gain? Those attitudes should be ours.

We dont need to fear 'bad reports' in the same way the world does. Some attitudes to self perseverance here seem similar to that of non christians. To save your life at all costs

RickD wrote:Should this 12 year old girl have taken Jiu jitsu classes? Or maybe just said, "please don't rape me kind sir."
http://m.news9.com/story.aspx?story=198 ... tId=112032

Maybe I should start micah early...take him down the shooting range tomorrow

With my intruder, I felt like God sent him.running...but obviously God does not work like that everytime.

The intruder could have used that gun against her as well or maybe she could have shot her baby brother instead if she had one. Theres more to consider here than what seems to prove a good case for gun ownership

RickD wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:

Philip wrote:Even Jesus told his disciples to carry a sword - the handgun of the day.

Really, you're looking to Jesus for justification to carry guns?
Don't invoke Christ's name, because that is a serious misrepresentation and insult.

I'm over the US issue of the gun-death link. Here's an insight Christianity should provide us with: We can all be that "bad guy" because it's in our nature to oppose God. Really, I think all has been said. And, by and large there is a lot of agreement between all when all the emotion is cut out.

BUT, your small comment there merits a whole new perhaps more important discussion of its own.

Jesus didn't need weapons for protection any more then He feared the storms while out on a boat.
As Christ said later on after the two swords were obtained, "do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels?"

Perhaps it should be this quote of Jesus' you should pay attention to:

• Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword. (Matt 26:52)

Someone said to me recently, that the gun today is equivalent to the sword back then.
So then, what of an entire society within a nation who strongly believe that it is some innate right to take up guns, many guns? Surely, if we apply Jesus' words, many within that same society with perish by those guns. Those looking to use Christ for support will find zero unless they rip Scripture apart in Ku Klux Klan fashion.

Rather, in Luke 22 the reason Jesus gave for taking up swords, was because that which was written must be fulfilled in Him, ‘AND HE WAS NUMBERED WITH TRANSGRESSORS’. Jesus never said to take up swords for protection but rather so that He could fulfill His purpose on Earth. Jesus makes a reference to Isaiah 53 where we read some rather prophetic words:

• 1Who has believed our message
  and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
  2He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
  and like a root out of dry ground.
  He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
  nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
  3He was despised and rejected by mankind,
  a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
  Like one from whom people hide their faces
  he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
  4Surely he took up our pain
  and bore our suffering,
  yet we considered him punished by God,
  stricken by him, and afflicted.
  5But he was pierced for our transgressions,
  he was crushed for our iniquities;
  the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
  and by his wounds we are healed.
  6We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
  each of us has turned to our own way;
  and the Lord has laid on him
  the iniquity of us all.
  7He was oppressed and afflicted,
  yet he did not open his mouth;
  he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
  and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
  so he did not open his mouth.
  8By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
  Yet who of his generation protested?
  For he was cut off from the land of the living;
  for the transgression of my people he was punished.
  9He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
  and with the rich in his death,
  though he had done no violence,
  nor was any deceit in his mouth.
  10Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
  and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
  he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
  and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
  11After he has suffered,
  he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
  by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
  and he will bear their iniquities.
  12Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
  and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
  because he poured out his life unto death,
  and was numbered with the transgressors.
  For he bore the sin of many,
  and made intercession for the transgressors.

His Disciples expected Jesus to be their Messiah, who would rescue them from Roman rule through conquest.
Jesus never said what the swords were for, but his followers obviously thought Jesus was about to rise up and make things finally happen! And, all Jesus' other followers who were with him.

Then when the Jewish high priest and elders came to seize Jesus, one follower rushed to Jesus' defense and cut of the ear of the soldier. What did Jesus do? He said, "stop, no more!" and healed the person.

No, Jesus was teaching them a lesson that ALL his followers would only understand in retrospect. Perhaps, the cutting off of the ear hardened the High Priest and elders all the more against Jesus, His healing adding coals of fires upon their heads (cf. Proverbs 25:21-22; Romans 12:20-21).

I seriously question those who fear death and yet claim to follow Christ. I'm no pacifist and the weak should be protected. There is a law and order that needs to be kept, and governments are suppose to fulfill that role and keep evil in check.

I do not fear for my life, even in death. This should enable me to try love those who'd take my life, those who hate us and to try and show them hope and meaning, rather than existential issues about life's ultimate meaninglessness which appears what the main reason for these people acting out. Our fight isn't against flesh and blood, but the invisible rulers of this world.

For us Christians, WE should be the ones leading by example after that of Christ. Your arguments Philip, seem to show someone who is ruled by fear. What Christ teaches me is that fear is cast out with love, not a gun or the sword. This isn't a left vs. right issue, it isn't a religious issue (so don't make it one), but it is a deeply embedded cultural issue that perhaps arose out of America fighting for independence and the colonizing of America, "Wild West", etc.

To Christians there is nothing to worry about; 24“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. 25“He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal.

RickD, I dare you to step into the ring and debate or prove anything I said above wrong.

Most of the time the people trying to use guns in self defense, end up being shot and killed. Is there anyone here who has actually used a gun to protect his family? It would be interesting to hear their perspective.

And I agree with K.

RickD wrote:Should this 12 year old girl have taken Jiu jitsu classes? Or maybe just said, "please don't rape me kind sir."
http://m.news9.com/story.aspx?story=198 ... tId=112032

Should this 12 year old own a gun?

Putting a gun in everyone's hand is not a solution. As its apparent in your country.

I am sure no one here has killed a person invading their home. Killing, even for justified reasons, can leave a trauma of its own.