Evidence for God from Science

Stu, God never causes sin - meaning He can only create humans with the capacity to choose to sin or not be capable of it. And so these supposed pre-Adamic men would also have had free will.

Philip wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:21 am Stu, God never causes sin - meaning He can only create humans with the capacity to choose to sin or not be capable of it. And so these supposed pre-Adamic men would also have had free will.

So essentially they would have to have been created just the same as Adam and Eve?

I mean what's the point of creating a being that has freewill. They are going to inevitably sin, it's a given.

RickD wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:26 am DBowling,

Maybe you could elaborate on man being created in God's image in Genesis 1:27, and how your belief that Genesis 1 is talking about pre-Adamite humanity.

In other words, what is "God's image" referring to in regards to pre-Adamites? Were they spiritual? Did they know right from wrong, or did that happen with the fall of Adam?

I wanted to have better documentation for my response, but I can give you the 'off the top of my head version'.

1. What does 'the image of God' mean?
Theologians have been debating that for centuries. Here are some of my thoughts.
a. One aspect involves acting as God's representative to implement his dominion. Genesis 1 seems to be consistent with this principle as God chooses mankind to exercise dominion and rule over his creation. And if I am correct that Adam lived sometime around 5000 - 6000 BC then mankind had in fact fulfilled God's directive to "fill the earth" prior to the time of Adam.
b. An additional possibility (which I embrace) involves the fundamental nature of Mankind as a spirit creature. There is not direct support for this premise in Genesis 1 but I do think that elsewhere Scripture supports the premise that God is Spirit, and that mankind has a spirit as well. Which could mean that part of being an image bearer of God involves having a spirit component.

2. Were pre-Adamites spiritual?
As I mention above I do believe that pre-Adamites were spirit creatures. However, I do not believe that they were 'spiritually alive'... with the definition of 'spiritually alive' meaning that a spirit is in communion with the Spirit of God.
I think that is part of what is going on in Genesis 2:7. Adam became a 'living spirit' when the breath (Spirit) of God came upon him and Adam's spirit came into communion with the Spirit of God.
As I mention above there are many people today who are 'spiritual' but are not 'spiritually alive' because their spirit is not in relationship with the Spirit of God.

3. Did the pre-Adamites know right from wrong?
I do not believe so.
When Adam and Eve sinned they came to know both good and evil. So prior to the time of Adam I believe mankind was basically amoral/innocent/etc.
From a spiritual perspective I believe pre-Adamites were in the same spiritual condition as infants today. Obviously they were much more intelligent and advanced than infants today, but from a spiritual perspective, I think infants today are spiritual equivalents to pre-Adamites.
- infants are image bearers of God
- infants do not know good and evil

God has always had values as to what He considers right and wrong. And if beings of free will, surely any pre-Adamites had the ability to choose things or actions God has always deemed as being wrong - which is what sin is.

Philip wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:44 am God has always had values as to what He considers right and wrong. And if beings of free will, surely any pre-Adamites had the ability to choose things or actions God has always deemed as being wrong - which is what sin is.

Yes and no...

Yes - God has an unchangeable set of values that determines right from wrong, and any behavior that runs contrary to God's values is sin.

Now the question becomes, did pre-Adamites have a "knowledge of good and evil" prior to the Fall. I think Scripture provides us the answer in Genesis 3
After eating the fruit the eyes of Adam and Eve "were opened" and they became "like God, knowing good and evil".
The implication of this statement is that prior to the sin of Adam and Eve, mankind was blinded (their eyes were not opened) to the knowledge of good and evil.

The two verses that immediately follow Romans 5:12 are intriguing to me as I ponder the spiritual state of pre-fallen mankind.
Romans 5:13-14

13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

And before I forget on this topic, there's Acts 17:26 "And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth..."

That seems to assert from one man came all the nations "to live on the face of the earth..." - ALL nations that have ever existed everywhere???

Back to our discussion:

Philip: God has always had values as to what He considers right and wrong. And if beings of free will, surely any pre-Adamites had the ability to choose things or actions God has always deemed as being wrong - which is what sin is.

DB: Yes and no...

Yes - God has an unchangeable set of values that determines right from wrong, and any behavior that runs contrary to God's values is sin.

OK.

DB: Now the question becomes, did pre-Adamites have a "knowledge of good and evil" prior to the Fall. I think Scripture provides us the answer in Genesis 3.

After eating the fruit the eyes of Adam and Eve "were opened" and they became "like God, knowing good and evil".
The implication of this statement is that prior to the sin of Adam and Eve, mankind was blinded (their eyes were not opened) to the knowledge of good and evil.

Yes, but sin DID exist prior to the law!

Romans 5:13: "... for until the Law sin WAS in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law."

And yet Paul tells us when law and sin's awareness and accountability came into existence:

Romans 5:12: "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin

Romans 5:14: "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses."

So the responsibility (and knowledge) of sin began with Adam. But why the reference to "times of ignorance" and God "overlooking" those times? Did God overlook sin before God's law and directives? And how was there sin in the world before Adam sinned ("for until the Law sin WAS in the world, but sin is not imputed...")?

What might Acts 17:30 have to say about this? "The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now..." I've read what commentary's suggest. Right? Wrong?

Now, Acts 17:29 refers to pagans and how they imagined that god was like the idols made of stone and imaginations of men ("times of ignorance") - as Paul's Athenian audience was likewise surrounded by a city of idols. And yet, (the verse 26 I mentioned, refers to "He (God) made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth." So, I don't know if the "times of ignorance" that God overlooked could be of peoples before Adam? But the idea that God overlooked the sins of man at all... And yet, Paul says sin accountability begins with the law - so...

OK, I'm just throwing all of this out for discussion - I've no assertions about it.

Philip wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:52 pm And before I forget on this topic, there's Acts 17:26 "And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth..."

That seems to assert from one man came all the nations "to live on the face of the earth..." - ALL nations that have ever existed everywhere???

In this verse Paul is discussing the organizational origins of nations (ethnos) not the biological origins of mankind (anthropon).
So I think Paul is pointing back to Noah (not Adam) and the role Noah's family played in the national origins of the 70 known countries listed in Genesis 10.

DB: Now the question becomes, did pre-Adamites have a "knowledge of good and evil" prior to the Fall. I think Scripture provides us the answer in Genesis 3.

After eating the fruit the eyes of Adam and Eve "were opened" and they became "like God, knowing good and evil".
The implication of this statement is that prior to the sin of Adam and Eve, mankind was blinded (their eyes were not opened) to the knowledge of good and evil.

Yes, but sin DID exist prior to the law!

Romans 5:13: "... for until the Law sin WAS in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law."

And yet Paul tells us when law and sin's awareness and accountability came into existence:

Romans 5:12: "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin

Romans 5:14: "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses."

So the responsibility (and knowledge) of sin began with Adam. But why the reference to "times of ignorance" and God "overlooking" those times? Did God overlook sin before God's law and directives? And how was there sin in the world before Adam sinned ("for until the Law sin WAS in the world, but sin is not imputed...")?

What might Acts 17:30 have to say about this? "The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now..." I've read what commentary's suggest. Right? Wrong?

Now, Acts 17:29 refers to pagans and how they imagined that god was like the idols made of stone and imaginations of men ("times of ignorance") - as Paul's Athenian audience was likewise surrounded by a city of idols. And yet, (the verse 26 I mentioned, refers to "He (God) made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth." So, I don't know if the "times of ignorance" that God overlooked could be of peoples before Adam? But the idea that God overlooked the sins of man at all... And yet, Paul says sin accountability begins with the law - so...

OK, I'm just throwing all of this out for discussion - I've no assertions about it.

I don't see anything that I disagree with here.
My position is that even though "good and evil" existed prior to the time of Adam, mankind did not have a "knowledge of good and evil" until the Fall.

And since "the knowledge of good and evil" was not known to mankind until the time of Adam, then sin was not imputed to mankind and God overlooked their ignorance.

But the same mankind who had no knowledge of good and evil also had no relationship with their Creator. And therefore pre-Adamic mankind was not spiritually alive.

It appears to me that "knowledge of good and evil" and the potential for spiritual life are flip sides of the same coin.

DBowling wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:49 am

Kurieuo wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:57 am I wonder, for those who show a fondness for a pre-Adamic race, isn't racism to some degree justified?

Short answer... no.
As I mentioned above genetics tells us that all humans (independent of race) are all descendants of common ancestors in Africa.
So there is no justification for racism of any sort.

It seems it would be hard to reconcile promises of God, indeed Christ, with those who belong to a non-Adamic race that had no fall nor covenant with God.

I disagree...
All people have sinned and are affected by the sin of Adam... regardless of their genetic ancestry.
And Christ died to save all people... regardless of their genetic ancestry.

There is no Scriptural correlation between a person's genetic relationship to Adam and either their participation in the consequences of Adam's sin or their participation in the results of Christ's death and resurrection.

"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive." (1 Cor 15:22)

If you don't have the former, you don't have the latter. Paul goes into great detail making this argument in Romans 5 (focus on the verses below 5:12 which is only the prelude to his argument.

15 But the free gift is not like the trespass.
For if many died through one man's trespass [Adam], much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. [Christ]

16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin [had via Adam]. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification [had via Christ].

17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man [Adam], much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. [Christ]

18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men [Adam's trespass], so one act of righteousness [Christ's act] leads to justification and life for all men.

19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners [Adam and humanity], so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. [Christ and those who believe]

20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death [1], grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. [2]

If you don't partake in one [1], then neither can you partake in the other [2]. Paul's argument is just as we were partakers of Adam's sin and consequences thereof (what I'd call the REAL death i.e., eternal separation from God who is the source of life), so we're also partakers of Christ and His righteousness that leads to eternal life. If you don't have sin, you don't have righteousness. If you weren't in Adam's sin, then you're not in Christ's righteousness.

It is important to highlight that animals too suffer death, but they're NOT fused with Adam's sin like we are. Similarly, and hominid beside/prior to Adam & Eve wouldn't be fused with their sin but could indeed experience the consequences thereof (even retrospectively as I've reasoned from the Scriptures elsewhere). BUT, they're nonetheless like a mere animal that lives and dies experiencing the consequence also of our sin but not partaking in Adam or Christ.

Finally, there is indeed a racism to be had I think (I'm not just saying that to ruffle any feathers, nor with the negative connotations often associated with racism). That is, it is, well, not an unjustified racism, but a necessary racism of sorts based upon the truth of reality. For example, in the same way Israel were God's chosen people via Abrahamic convenant and that via Jacob (aka Israel), and God's covenant was exclusive of other nations... (even Peter had a hard time coming to grips with an open covenant open to the Gentiles/was initially ashamed of his association with Gentile Christians when with Jewish Christians). Similarly, only we humans who partake in Adam (let's call it an "Adamic convenant"), can partake in the new Christolic covenant.

Philip: And before I forget on this topic, there's Acts 17:26 "And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth..."

That seems to assert from one man came all the nations "to live on the face of the earth..." - ALL nations that have ever existed everywhere???

DB: In this verse Paul is discussing the organizational origins of nations (ethnos) not the biological origins of mankind (anthropon).

So I think Paul is pointing back to Noah (not Adam) and the role Noah's family played in the national origins of the 70 known countries listed in Genesis 10.

I dunno, DB, "every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth..." - that 's pretty all-inclusive. And surely there were nations before Adam - if our theory of pre-Adamites is true. And like K mentioned, some genetic remnants of them would still exist.

This is a really fun discussion. It's probably most difficult for many because even considering it goes against the church traditions we all grew up hearing. I'm very careful as to whom I share it with when I'm teaching one of my community groups - I don't want people to think (and I emphasize this) that I've wandered into heresy or don't believe that Scripture is true. But there's clearly lots that God just doesn't seem to think we need to know, at least for now, beyond a limited sketch.

Kurieuo wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:43 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:49 am All people have sinned and are affected by the sin of Adam... regardless of their genetic ancestry.
And Christ died to save all people... regardless of their genetic ancestry.

There is no Scriptural correlation between a person's genetic relationship to Adam and either their participation in the consequences of Adam's sin or their participation in the results of Christ's death and resurrection.

"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive." (1 Cor 15:22)

If you don't have the former, you don't have the latter. Paul goes into great detail making this argument in Romans 5 (focus on the verses below 5:12 which is only the prelude to his argument.

15 But the free gift is not like the trespass.
For if many died through one man's trespass [Adam], much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. [Christ]

16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin [had via Adam]. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification [had via Christ].

17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man [Adam], much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. [Christ]

18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men [Adam's trespass], so one act of righteousness [Christ's act] leads to justification and life for all men.

19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners [Adam and humanity], so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. [Christ and those who believe]

20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death [1], grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. [2]

If you don't partake in one [1], then neither can you partake in the other [2]. Paul's argument is just as we were partakers of Adam's sin and consequences thereof (what I'd call the REAL death i.e., eternal separation from God who is the source of life), so we're also partakers of Christ and His righteousness that leads to eternal life. If you don't have sin, you don't have righteousness. If you weren't in Adam's sin, then you're not in Christ's righteousness.

Amen... I agree with everything you quote.
And none of what you say above is in any way dependent on whether Adam is or is not our genetic progenitor.

All people have sinned and are affected by the sin of Adam... regardless of their genetic ancestry.
And Christ died to save all people... regardless of their genetic ancestry.

Philip wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:53 pm

Philip: And before I forget on this topic, there's Acts 17:26 "And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth..."

That seems to assert from one man came all the nations "to live on the face of the earth..." - ALL nations that have ever existed everywhere???

DB: In this verse Paul is discussing the organizational origins of nations (ethnos) not the biological origins of mankind (anthropon).

So I think Paul is pointing back to Noah (not Adam) and the role Noah's family played in the national origins of the 70 known countries listed in Genesis 10.

I dunno, DB, "every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth..." - that 's pretty all-inclusive

So is "all the land" or "the whole world", but the scope of these terms have to understood within their context. I doubt that anyone here believes that Augustus had everyone on the planet registered and taxed, or that Cain was banished from the planet, or that after Noah's flood all the water was dried up from the face of the planet.

I think Paul's use of ethnos makes it pretty clear that he is referring to the role of Noah's sons in the founding of the 70 nations in Genesis 10.
I would also point out one more thing. George Washington is considered by many to be the father of our nation. That does not mean that George Washington was the genetic progenitor of every person in the US now or even back in 1776.

Context... context... context...

DBowling wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:01 pm

Kurieuo wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:43 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:49 am All people have sinned and are affected by the sin of Adam... regardless of their genetic ancestry.
And Christ died to save all people... regardless of their genetic ancestry.

There is no Scriptural correlation between a person's genetic relationship to Adam and either their participation in the consequences of Adam's sin or their participation in the results of Christ's death and resurrection.

"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive." (1 Cor 15:22)

If you don't have the former, you don't have the latter. Paul goes into great detail making this argument in Romans 5 (focus on the verses below 5:12 which is only the prelude to his argument.

15 But the free gift is not like the trespass.
For if many died through one man's trespass [Adam], much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. [Christ]

16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin [had via Adam]. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification [had via Christ].

17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man [Adam], much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. [Christ]

18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men [Adam's trespass], so one act of righteousness [Christ's act] leads to justification and life for all men.

19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners [Adam and humanity], so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. [Christ and those who believe]

20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death [1], grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. [2]

If you don't partake in one [1], then neither can you partake in the other [2]. Paul's argument is just as we were partakers of Adam's sin and consequences thereof (what I'd call the REAL death i.e., eternal separation from God who is the source of life), so we're also partakers of Christ and His righteousness that leads to eternal life. If you don't have sin, you don't have righteousness. If you weren't in Adam's sin, then you're not in Christ's righteousness.

Amen... I agree with everything you quote.
And none of what you say above is in any way dependent on whether Adam is or is not our genetic progenitor.

All people have sinned and are affected by the sin of Adam... regardless of their genetic ancestry.
And Christ died to save all people... regardless of their genetic ancestry.

I've not mentioned "genetic progenitor", although I can see why you jump to such being the case since many might take that view by all being in Adam, yet then none who are in Christ are genetically related to Him. So, I see it as irrelevant.

In what way then are we in Adam? Paul discusses such in detail, which represents more than merely consequences of physical death being had. E.g., I don't believe ALL includes animals too, yet they experience death also.

Note, that condemnation is had for all men due to Adam's sin. This isn't just speaking of a physical death consequent (which we all inevitably will suffer). Rather condemnation is had from God's judgement of sin, which we believe and hope in Christ's promise that we will pass from such due to His act. Again, just like animals aren't condemned, neither would non-Adamic men be. Rather, it are those of Adam (whoever I'd say the "Adamic covenant" covers that you believe was had between God), who are condemned in Adam.

Note, according to Paul, we are also made sinners by one man's disobedience v.19 (NOT, merely a lesser doctrine of something like: "all people have sinned, inherit a sinful nature, or will go onto sin, and so in this way are affected by Adam's sin." Rather, God sees us all collectively as sinners due to Adam's sin. This is something non-Adamic people couldn't participate in, no more than say a monkey, dolphin or some other animal. Unlike animals they might still nonetheless recognise right and wrong (due to a higher level of consciousness), yet they're still outside the promise made to those who are in Adam (whether genetically or covenantally, it doesn't matter which to me).

So while we are reading the same Scripture, and you say you are in full agreement, I do not see that you are infact complete agreement with what is entailed by Paul's words and reasoning.

Kurieuo wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:59 pm I've not mentioned "genetic progenitor", although I can see why you jump to such being the case since many might take that view by all being in Adam, yet then none who are in Christ are genetically related to Him. So, I see it as irrelevant.

Amen...
That is one of the key points that I am trying to communicate.

Note, that condemnation is had for all men due to Adam's sin. This isn't just speaking of a physical death consequent (which we all inevitably will suffer). Rather condemnation is had from God's judgement of sin, which we believe and hope in Christ's promise that we will pass from such due to His act. Again, just like animals aren't condemned, neither would non-Adamic men be. Rather, it are those of Adam (whoever I'd say the "Adamic covenant" covers that you believe was had between God), who are condemned in Adam.

As I have mentioned elsewhere, I believe the death that passed to all men in the day that Adam sinned and as a result of Adam's sin was a death that was immediate and unique to mankind... ie spiritual death.

I disagree with your assertion regarding non-Adamic men though...
All of mankind (whether descended from Adam or not) are image bearers of God.
All of mankind (whether descended from Adam or not) were affected by Adam's sin.
Animals are not condemned because they are not part of mankind.

Note, according to Paul, we are also made sinners by one man's disobedience v.19 (NOT, merely a lesser doctrine of something like: "all people have sinned, inherit a sinful nature, or will go onto sin, and so in this way are affected by Adam's sin." Rather, God sees us all collectively as sinners due to Adam's sin. This is something non-Adamic people couldn't participate in, no more than say a monkey, dolphin or some other animal.

This bears repeating...
All of mankind are sinners due to Adam's sin.
According to Romans 5:12 sin and death spread to all mankind.
As you mention above, this is true whether they are genetically related to Adam or not.

Non-Adamic people would also participate in Adam's sin due to the simple Scriptural fact that as a result of the Fall, sin and death spread to all mankind.
Monkeys and dolphins and other animals do not participate in Adam's sin because they are not part of mankind.

Well why would God do that then?
Also, where does the early people who lived for a million years like H. erectus fit in? We see they died beforehand, how are they sinners if they lived eons before Adam*?
*most here think Adam was round few hundred thousand years ago sooo

thatkidakayoungguy wrote: ↑Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:30 pm Well why would God do that then?
Also, where does the early people who lived for a million years like H. erectus fit in? We see they died beforehand, how are they sinners if they lived eons before Adam*?
*most here think Adam was round few hundred thousand years ago sooo

What I highlighted in your words isn't true as far as I understand others' positions here. I certainly don't believe such.