Atheists: Does anything attract you to Christianity?

[Nessa]

I think what Jesus teaches is very appealing. Discarding the self, and seeing the bigger picture..

I think on one hand he taught that but on the other hand he taught us things like the value of children. That we are actually to come into the kingdom as children. The kingdom of God belongs to such as these.

This world is a cold hearted, fast paced world. Full of greed, lust and sin. Innocence and purity of heart is often found missing and Jesus draws us into such simplicity, freedom, love and joy.

This is what I find.attractive about christianity

Children can be the best teachers, but we are often too busy teaching them to realise that.
We are the 'peter pan' that grew up and forgot.

(waiting for rick to say 'Well thankyou, tinkerbell )

[edwardmurphy]

Ed, one thing about a discussion forum is that no one can read body language. The words you wrote come across as anti-Jewish, therefore, let it be known that this forum will not tolerate that sort of thing. Maybe you did not mean at all to come across as anti-jewish/Israel but fact is, you did. So I questioned you on this matter.

Treating the Jews as if they were just another group of people and Israel as if it were just another nation isn't anti-Semitic. Obviously the Holocaust was horrible, but the Jews aren't the only group that's ever been on the receiving end of horrific violence, and being numbered among the victims of the Nazis doesn't get their decedents a permanent pass to do anything they feel like without fear of criticism. The Israelis - note that I'm talking about a nation here, not a religion - are not blameless and our longstanding policy of taking their side no matter what is poorly conceived.

I have no opinions about the Jewish people as a whole, because that would be ridiculous. They're people. A few of them are exemplary, a few of them are horrible, and the vast majority fall somewhere in between, just like every other group of people. Disdaining any group because of their religion would be asinine. Unless they were Muslim, I mean. Those guys are evil. Even the babies are plotting to kill us all and start a new Caliphate with Omaha as the capital. Terrifying.

How come the Holocaust could not the instrument God used to move the nations o except the Jewish people back into their homeland as prophesied in bible as well as the events leading to return which speak of the events that happened to the Jewish people being hunted and killed before the return as mentioned in the bible?

Because that's insane. You're seriously telling me that I should honor a god who would do something like that? It's breathtakingly cruel, not to mention really inefficient. It's the act of a sociopathic monster.

Ed everyone has a reason why to their life why they become this or that. It is called a root cause. If you are not willing to share on the real reason you became an - unbeliever - then it demonstrates a objective unwillingness to actually reason with anyone as you are the only objective source for morality which says... endless talking point dribble...

I recall that you had a reason for what you erroneously* think of as your atheist period. Is that why you think that I must have one, too? The fact is, I don't.

I was baptized Lutheran, if I recall correctly. When I was a kid we went to the Second Congregational Church of Christ. The Pastor, Reverend Barron, was a nice guy who never molested me, ran over my dog, or seduced my mom. The building was clean, dry, and not haunted, spooky, or otherwise off-putting. There was always ample parking. Sunday school was irritating - far too much time spent gabbling on about Jesus, the Kool-aid was always watered down, and the cookies were stale - but it was never traumatic. My biggest issue with the whole experience, apart from having to go when there were better things to do, was that it all just seemed like a load of crap. There were too many holes in the narrative, and too many places where I felt like I could have done a better job than god did. Long story short, the presentation was unappealing, the material was unconvincing, and I put it all in the rear-view mirror as soon as I could.

*If you're mad at god then it follows that you believe in him and are therefore an angry theist, not an atheist.

However you at least revealed that you don't like people getting into your head. In that you are correct, Jesus is a person who desires you to inside your head and help you.

Jesus isn't judging me - he's been dead for 2,000 years. That said, being judged by people who worship him and look down on those who don't is irritating. And just to clarify, I don't feel that I'm being judged by the majority of Christians that I know in real life, or even the majority on this forum. But when I sense that I am, yes, it's irritating.

So I take this to mean that somewhere along the line of your life hate came into your life as a guiding factor of your personal morality because you feel you are being criticized and judged.

That, sir, is an extraordinary leap. You're reading way too much into that comment. What I said was that I don't care for a particular rhetorical trick that I've seen many, many times over the years. I don't sit here telling you all what it means to be Christian because 1) I don't really know, and 2) I recognize that it means different things to different people, so there's no answer that's going to be true for every Christian. When Christians start telling me that I don't understand what it means to be an atheist I tend to be annoyed by their disregard of those two points.

So you hate to be criticized and judged wrongly as anyone would but how are you not being that critical and judgmental towards others here on this forum?

I'm doing my best to treat others as they treat me. If you look at my comments to various people you'll see that.

I'm fine with criticism where it's due, but I don't care to be criticized for positions that I don't hold and statements that I never made. As far as judgement goes, I do my best to judge people by their comments while assuming good intentions. And often - really often - I read a comment, sigh, and keep my thoughts to myself.

[Storyteller]

I like your posts ed, you come across as intellig and caring with a wicked sense of humour, to me at least.
I am mystified as to how anyone would not believe in God, and Christ but I guess you're mystified as to why anyonne would.

So how, why, did all this happen?
Or is there really no why, it just did?
What caused the Big Bang?
Where did our morals come from? The universe doesnt follow morals yet we all try to, why?

[zacchaeus]

Ed, how do you dictate your own morality- moral code? Do you consider murder immoral or bad? If so why... Outside of Christianity I could see killing everyone except me to be considered a 'perfect world'... Why aren't you killing all the time? If its because the law defines murder outside of scripture (and maybe it does) what compels you to follow the law, that law?

Does your moral code align with scriptures... Or does Scripture somewhere go contrary to the standard by which you live? I'm curious, specifically. Thanks.

[edwardmurphy]

I like your posts ed, you come across as intellig and caring with a wicked sense of humour, to me at least.

Thank you. I have always appreciated the openness and sincerity of your comments about potentially divisive issues.

I am mystified as to how anyone would not believe in God, and Christ but I guess you're mystified as to why anyonne would.

You're right. I'm equally mystified.

So how, why, did all this happen?
Or is there really no why, it just did?

Yes, I think that it all just happened.

What caused the Big Bang?

I don't know. We know that the Universe is expanding and there's evidence to support the Big Bang theory, but I don't think there's any way to investigate what happened before that. Maybe some day we'll know. Maybe not. Maybe it's not something that can be known by the likes of humanity.

Anyway, I can live with that. Having an answer would be more satisfying than not having one, but that's no reason to pull something out of our butts just to avoid saying we don't know.

Where did our morals come from? The universe doesnt follow morals yet we all try to, why?

Here's an article on that subject that I find interesting. It doesn't really answer your question, but it does a great job of answering the claim that theism gives people a reason to be good. I like this part:

Far from being a force that pulls ceaselessly toward the moral apex of the universe, religion is more like a megaphone, amplifying both the good and the bad of human nature in equal measure. This is not surprising to an atheist, because there is no objectively verifiable evidence of any god who wants people to behave in any particular way. As a result, people can without fear of contradiction invent a god who speaks for them, who confirms all their opinions and prejudices – and this is exactly what all religious people do, the liberal as well as the conservative.

And here's a psychobiological explanation of morality.

I don't think that either of those articles covers the whole issue of morality, but I find both of their arguments a whole lot more convincing that the argument that morality comes from god.

[RickD]

Ed,

If you equate God causing the Big Bang, with pulling something out of our butts, then your openness to metaphysics is severely lacking.

You might want to look into The metaphysical proof for God again.

[Hortator]

If you equate God causing the Big Bang, with pulling something out of our butts, then your openness to metaphysics is severely lacking.

You might want to look into The metaphysical proof for God again.

Our main website can successfully answer these questions.

A general introdution,
http://godandscience.org/apologetics/atheismintro.html

The whole shebang, since there are roughly 20 links,
http://godandscience.org/evolution/index.html

And one of my personal favorites,
http://godandscience.org/apologetics/na ... icity.html

What I mean is, these questions have pretty much been asked and reasonably answered to a satisfying degree for almost anybody already. If somebody came to this website and somehow missed the main building to our smaller clubhouse, I'd redirect them there.

[Storyteller]

I like your posts ed, you come across as intellig and caring with a wicked sense of humour, to me at least.

Thank you. I have always appreciated the openness and sincerity of your comments about potentially divisive issues.Blessed be the peacemaker

I am mystified as to how anyone would not believe in God, and Christ but I guess you're mystified as to why anyonne would.

You're right. I'm equally mystified. Ha! We have common ground, see?

So how, why, did all this happen?
Or is there really no why, it just did?

Yes, I think that it all just happened. How? See, I just cant picture that. At all.

What caused the Big Bang?

I don't know. We know that the Universe is expanding and there's evidence to support the Big Bang theory, but I don't think there's any way to investigate what happened before that. Maybe some day we'll know. Maybe not. Maybe it's not something that can be known by the likes of humanity. Then by who, or what?
Nothing happened before that, there was no before that.
Science tries to explain how, not why.
God gives the why, for me, at least.

Anyway, I can live with that. Having an answer would be more satisfying than not having one, but that's no reason to pull something out of our butts just to avoid saying we don't know. I'm happy to say I dont know, I believe, and there is a difference, subtle but there.
I'm a new believer but have always had some kind of faith, never believed all this wonder, all this glory, all this passion, this love that we all feel is down to some random thing.

Where did our morals come from? The universe doesnt follow morals yet we all try to, why?

Here's an article on that subject that I find interesting. It doesn't really answer your question, but it does a great job of answering the claim that theism gives people a reason to be good. I like this part:

Far from being a force that pulls ceaselessly toward the moral apex of the universe, religion is more like a megaphone, amplifying both the good and the bad of human nature in equal measure. This is not surprising to an atheist, because there is no objectively verifiable evidence of any god who wants people to behave in any particular way. As a result, people can without fear of contradiction invent a god who speaks for them, who confirms all their opinions and prejudices – and this is exactly what all religious people do, the liberal as well as the conservative.

See, thats where I disagree. Doesnt always confirm. Thats the tough bit.


And here's a psychobiological explanation of morality.

I don't think that either of those articles covers the whole issue of morality, but I find both of their arguments a whole lot more convincing that the argument that morality comes from god.

Just a thought ed, do you define religion and faith differently?

[edwardmurphy]

Ed,

If you equate God causing the Big Bang, with pulling something out of our butts, then your openness to metaphysics is severely lacking.

You might want to look into The metaphysical proof for God again.

If I recall correctly, that argument goes something like this:

The Universe cannot have come from nothing. The big bang had to have had a cause. That cause was god. "Horsefeathers," an atheist might say. "What caused god?" To which the theist would reply that god has always existed outside of time and space and is therefore not beholden to the laws of cause and effect.

Does that about sum it up?

If so, I don't buy it. Who says that the Big Bang had to have had a cause? If it did, who says that that cause couldn't have been natural? The fact that something is currently beyond our capacity to study doesn't mean that it always will be, much less automatically make it supernatural. Besides all that, the entire metaphysical argument for god is just words. Interesting words, no doubt, but claiming that they "prove" anything is a stretch.

Anyway, you're right, I'm not open to metaphysics as an alternative to science when it comes to explaining the origin of the universe. Either we can explain it using science, or we can't explain it at all.

[RickD]

Ed wrote:


If I recall correctly, that argument goes something like this:

The Universe cannot have come from nothing. The big bang had to have had a cause. That cause was god. "Horsefeathers," an atheist might say. "What caused god?" To which the theist would reply that god has always existed outside of time and space and is therefore not beholden to the laws of cause and effect.

Does that about sum it up?

Not quite.

Ed wrote:
If so, I don't buy it. Who says that the Big Bang had to have had a cause? If it did, who says that that cause couldn't have been natural? The fact that something is currently beyond our capacity to study doesn't mean that it always will be, much less automatically make it supernatural. Besides all that, the entire metaphysical argument for god is just words. Interesting words, no doubt, but claiming that they "prove" anything is a stretch.

Ed,
The Big Bang had to have a cause because the effect of it was the creation of the entire physical universe. It's simple cause and effect.

If as the Big Bang theory suggests, that the entire natural universe came into existence as an effect of the Big Bang, then by simple logic, that cause had to be supernatural.

Ed wrote:
Anyway, you're right, I'm not open to metaphysics as an alternative to science when it comes to explaining the origin of the universe. Either we can explain it using science, or we can't explain it at all.

And there is where your error lies. If everything in the natural universe began to exist as the effect of the Big Bang, then logically, nothing natural existed before the Big Bang. Which means, the cause of the BB, is beyond the scope of science, because science deals strictly with the natural world/universe. So again, logically, that means the cause of the Big Bang lies outside science, or within metaphysics.

[Storyteller]

Ed,

If you equate God causing the Big Bang, with pulling something out of our butts, then your openness to metaphysics is severely lacking.

You might want to look into The metaphysical proof for God again.

If I recall correctly, that argument goes something like this:

The Universe cannot have come from nothing. The big bang had to have had a cause. That cause was god. "Horsefeathers," an atheist might say. "What caused god?" To which the theist would reply that god has always existed outside of time and space and is therefore not beholden to the laws of cause and effect.

Does that about sum it up?

If so, I don't buy it. Who says that the Big Bang had to have had a cause? If it did, who says that that cause couldn't have been natural? The fact that something is currently beyond our capacity to study doesn't mean that it always will be, much less automatically make it supernatural. Besides all that, the entire metaphysical argument for god is just words. Interesting words, no doubt, but claiming that they "prove" anything is a stretch.

Anyway, you're right, I'm not open to metaphysics as an alternative to science when it comes to explaining the origin of the universe. Either we can explain it using science, or we can't explain it at all.

http://www.deepastronomy.com/what-cause ... -bang.html
This was an interesting read.

I disagree with your statement that we can explain it using science or not at all.
Everything that we know, see, feel, even time and space itself started with the Big Bang, everything. And all of that, all those intricate, delicate details that make this thing work were just an accident? See, I can just about get my head around you not believing in my God but to really believe all this arose from nothing, no cause?
Who created God? No one. But that can't be, can it?
So we have a universe that just appeared, we accept that but can't accept that God just is, always was, and always will be.
Weird.

[PaulSacramento]

Science tends to NOT make many absolute statements BUT what it does state is that, in the universe as we know it, all things that come into being have a cause.
Science states this because it is verifiable by observation and by mathematical certainty and be reasoning.

The Big Bang is what we call the event that, based on all we know now, cause the universe to come into being ( expanded).
We do NOT know what caused it or how, we simply postulate that something caused a "singularity" to expand into the universe that we have now, almost 14 billion years later.
We know that it expanded and continues to expand.
Science knows that there was a point that the universe, as we know it, did NOT exist and science postulates that some sort of action/even must have caused the expansion.
It simply does NOT know what that even was.

What science does know is that in THIS UNIVERSE, nothing comes into being without an " outside force acting upon it" in some fashion.
This is one of the LAWS of physics in this universe.

[edwardmurphy]

The Big Bang had to have a cause because the effect of it was the creation of the entire physical universe. It's simple cause and effect.

Is it simple cause and effect? Why? Because we can't imagine otherwise? The universe is vast. Its complexity borders on infinite. We're just hairless apes stuck on one little planet. We're barely a speck on the universal timeline. Can we really expect to be able to explain everything, everywhere, everywhen?

If as the Big Bang theory suggests, that the entire natural universe came into existence as an effect of the Big Bang, then by simple logic, that cause had to be supernatural.

I suppose that's one possibility. Another is that it isn't. It's entirely possible that it's a natural cause that's beyond our current means to investigate, kind of like just about everything was at one point or another.

And there is where your error lies. If everything in the natural universe began to exist as the effect of the Big Bang, then logically, nothing natural existed before the Big Bang. Which means, the cause of the BB, is beyond the scope of science, because science deals strictly with the natural world/universe. So again, logically, that means the cause of the Big Bang lies outside science, or within metaphysics.

But where did you get the idea that nothing natural existed before the Big Bang? The fact is we don't know, and it's completely possible that we can't know. So all we really have is a giant gap in our knowledge, which you insist is where your god operates. I don't buy it. I think that the only correct answer is "I don't know." If you want to add "but here's what I think" then that's fine, but acting like a cosmological argument offers definitive proof about anything is a stretch.

I disagree with your statement that we can explain it using science or not at all.
Everything that we know, see, feel, even time and space itself started with the Big Bang, everything. And all of that, all those intricate, delicate details that make this thing work were just an accident? See, I can just about get my head around you not believing in my God but to really believe all this arose from nothing, no cause? Who created God? No one. But that can't be, can it?

We evolved to look for cause and effect relationships, and that compulsion is so strong that we often find them where none actually exist. We can't help it - that's what our brains are wired to do. The reason that the scientific method is such a big deal is that it allowed us to step back and systematically test whether or not the cause and effect relationships we'd identified were real. It turned out that a whole lot of them weren't, and over the centuries a lot of long-held beliefs about the natural world were disproved and discarded.

The thing is, I don't see why there has to be a cause. Sure, it would be great to live in a simple world where everything happened for a clear and obvious reason, but we don't. From where I'm sitting cosmological arguments like the one above are just a continuation of the age-old tendency to put everything that we don't understand on god's plate, and that's just our monkey brains needing to have an explanation for everything. It just kills us to say we don't know.

So we have a universe that just appeared, we accept that but can't accept that God just is, always was, and always will be.
Weird.

The existence of the Universe is self-evident. How it came to be doesn't really matter unless you're a theist looking to fill a gap or a theoretical physicist looking to justify your salary. If you believe that we're at the center of everything in a Universe created just for us that's fine by me. I don't think the evidence points that way, but I can understand how it would be comforting if I did. Personally, I think that if there's an answer to be had - and there might not be - it's going to come from scientists, not from philosophers or theologians.

[edwardmurphy]

What science does know is that in THIS UNIVERSE, nothing comes into being without an " outside force acting upon it" in some fashion.
This is one of the LAWS of physics in this universe.

The formation of this universe can't have happened within this universe. Furthermore, the law of physics are just human constructs based on our observations of how things work within our universe. Who's to say what conditions existed prior to the formation of the universe...?

Anyway, how is god as the uncaused cause of the universe any more reasonable than the universe as the uncaused cause for itself?

[Byblos]

Anyway, how is god as the uncaused cause of the universe any more reasonable than the universe as the uncaused cause for itself?

Because it violates the law of non-contradiction whereas God does not.