Evidence for God from Science

neo-x wrote:

IceMobster wrote:

neo-x wrote:

IceMobster wrote:

Storyteller wrote:And who says we're the most important thing in the universe?

We are the most important thing in the universe because we are created in the image of God and he created us on the last day (before resting) meaning he wanted to get everything "done and polished before releasing the final product".
Not to mention that we are the only animals with reason, with the ability to think, with a soul different than other species which allows us to do things other can not. Or have you seen a dog having a philosophical discussion with another one?

We are not special because we are created in God's image. We are important because God chose us to be, there is a difference. Our speciality doesn't lie in who we are and how we're created but in the selection of God. Don't you remember:

<a target="_blank" data-purpose="bible-reference" data-version="nasb95" data-reference="Matt 3.9" href="http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Matt%203.9" class="rtBibleRef">Matthew 3:9</a>
And do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

God chose for all other animals to be, there is no difference concerning that point. However, you don't see animals writing books or having a philosophical discussion.
Oh our specialty does lie in who we are. By choosing certain actions we choose to be further away or closer to God. Other animals do not have such a thing. They will follow instinct, whereas a human can be led by instinct, emotion, reason,...

I was once playing guitar and my sister who was doing her M. Phil degree was studying. The door bell rang. She said to my go and see who is there. I told her, you go. She said, well I'm doing study, some really important and intelligent stuff. And I said why do you think your study has more to do with intelligence than playing music?

So we all have our specialities and our self-congratulatory opinions of what we do or have inherent as. But I always wonder why do cockroaches can survive a nuclear blast but we humans can't. God sure gave the cockroach a much better chance of survival and living than his best creation - man?

Humans follow lots of instinct as well. Try poking yourself in the eye with a fork, your eyelid with closedown out of instinct. Or lose balance and at once your hand will dart out to grab something to regain that balance.

Sure the cats don't have philosophical discussions about why numbers are real things or not, but they do speak in their tongue a lot and who knows what's going on there?

Sure cats haven't invented a rocket but they do invent ways to open doors creatively. Elephants mourn their dead and chimps do rain dances. some parrots have emotional range compared to infant humans. Dogs can break smell into chemical parts to identify trails. You try doing that? I bet you can't beat the dog.

As far as creation is concerned all life has value and beauty in itself and is God's handiwork. Do you know that there is a speical bacteria which takes care of the poop done on this planet by everyone. Without that bacteria life would be impossible.

We are animals just look at what we do with every other living thing, including other humans. It only is because of God's choice that we are special. It has nothing to do with our ability to discuss Descartes or Kant.

We are animals?
Nevermnd - I don't think you were being literal.

Nessa wrote: We are animals?
Nevermnd - I don't think you were being literal.

We are animals, lol. We are literally animals. Except, as opposed to all the other animals, we have reason.
However, as neo pointed out, we don't use it that much.

neo-x wrote:I was once playing guitar and my sister who was doing her M. Phil degree was studying. The door bell rang. She said to my go and see who is there. I told her, you go. She said, well I'm doing study, some really important and intelligent stuff. And I said why do you think your study has more to do with intelligence than playing music?

So we all have our specialities and our self-congratulatory opinions of what we do or have inherent as. But I always wonder why do cockroaches can survive a nuclear blast but we humans can't. God sure gave the cockroach a much better chance of survival and living than his best creation - man?

Humans follow lots of instinct as well. Try poking yourself in the eye with a fork, your eyelid with closedown out of instinct. Or lose balance and at once your hand will dart out to grab something to regain that balance.

Sure the cats don't have philosophical discussions about why numbers are real things or not, but they do speak in their tongue a lot and who knows what's going on there?

Sure cats haven't invented a rocket but they do invent ways to open doors creatively. Elephants mourn their dead and chimps do rain dances. some parrots have emotional range compared to infant humans. Dogs can break smell into chemical parts to identify trails. You try doing that? I bet you can't beat the dog.

As far as creation is concerned all life has value and beauty in itself and is God's handiwork. Do you know that there is a speical bacteria which takes care of the poop done on this planet by everyone. Without that bacteria life would be impossible.

We are animals just look at what we do with every other living thing, including other humans. It only is because of God's choice that we are special. It has nothing to do with our ability to discuss Descartes or Kant.

I guess you do have a point there.

Science doesn’t have the answers to the Universe, apparently you do. I think it’s safe to assume your faith goes a little beyond science; mine does not.

My faith in science is that I believe that it WILL eventually find the answers.
That you assumed it meant something else, as usual, peaks volumes.
You really NEED to stop reading things with your preconceived notions.

PaulSacramento wrote:

Science doesn’t have the answers to the Universe, apparently you do. I think it’s safe to assume your faith goes a little beyond science; mine does not.

My faith in science is that I believe that it WILL eventually find the answers.
That you assumed it meant something else, as usual, peaks volumes.
You really NEED to stop reading things with your preconceived notions.

My preconceived notion was that you believed God created the Universe; a belief that is not supported by science. If I've misunderstood your belief about God and the Universe I apologize.

Ken

Kenny wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

Science doesn’t have the answers to the Universe, apparently you do. I think it’s safe to assume your faith goes a little beyond science; mine does not.

My faith in science is that I believe that it WILL eventually find the answers.
That you assumed it meant something else, as usual, peaks volumes.
You really NEED to stop reading things with your preconceived notions.

My preconceived notion was that you believed God created the Universe; a belief that is not supported by science. If I've misunderstood your belief about God and the Universe I apologize.

Ken

Actually, science has never made statement on what it ( science) thinks made the universe.
Only simply that the universe has a beginning.
My belief that God created the universe ( set in motion the event(s) that lead to the universe becoming what it is and continues to sustain it) is not a belief based on science per se since that is, at this point at least, outside the purview of science.
I do believe that science will eventually discover How God did this of course, as it has already uncovered SOME of the processes that He uses.
That is what I mean by having faith in science.

Faith is confidence or trust in a person or thing.

Kenny wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

Science doesn’t have the answers to the Universe, apparently you do. I think it’s safe to assume your faith goes a little beyond science; mine does not.

My faith in science is that I believe that it WILL eventually find the answers.
That you assumed it meant something else, as usual, peaks volumes.
You really NEED to stop reading things with your preconceived notions.

My preconceived notion was that you believed God created the Universe; a belief that is not supported by science. If I've misunderstood your belief about God and the Universe I apologize.

Ken

PaulSacramento wrote: Actually, science has never made statement on what it ( science) thinks made the universe.

That’s because science does not claim the Universe was actually made, they only report on what they have evidence of, and they see no evidence of the Universe being made.

PaulSacramento wrote: Only simply that the universe has a beginning.

Umm….. the Universe AS WE KNOW IT had a beginning. But then, if we define the Universe as “all that exist” then (as I said before) whatever it was that existed prior, was the Universe as well, it just was not as we currently know it.

PaulSacramento wrote: My belief that God created the universe ( set in motion the event(s) that lead to the universe becoming what it is and continues to sustain it) is not a belief based on science per se since that is, at this point at least, outside the purview of science.
I do believe that science will eventually discover How God did this of course, as it has already uncovered SOME of the processes that He uses.
That is what I mean by having faith in science.

That is the point I was trying to make! Your faith gives you answers to what existed prior to the singularity that lead to the BB. Science does not have such answers; that is what I meant when I said your faith goes beyond science; mine does not. I was not my intention to offend you.


Ken

Umm….. the Universe AS WE KNOW IT had a beginning. But then, if we define the Universe as “all that exist” then (as I said before) whatever it was that existed prior, was the Universe as well, it just was not as we currently know it.

The qualifier "as we know it" is a valid one of course BUT are you suggesting that there is a reality BEYOND what we know?
See, it is perfectly acceptable to say that,"based on what we know via science, we know that the universe had a beginning and is expanding" and it is fine to say that, "based on what we know, we do NOT know what caused the universe to begin expanding OR what was there before the expansion".
It is perfectly acceptable to state that, " if the universe is all the exists then what existed prior to the universe expanding was also the universe".
None of that changes what we also know:
Nothing that comes into being, does so without outside influence.
Nothing that exists can NOT have qualities that it doesn't have.
So, the universe exists as we know it and since it can not have "started itself" since NOTHING that comes into being in THIS universe can do that, it means that something ELSE started the process and that something else MUST have been outside the universe and "all the exists".

What I mean by this is that nothing can have qualities that do not pertain to itself and the universe, since it had a beginning and it continues to expand, requires and :outside force" to make it "come into being" as we know it.

It doesn't really matter IF there was some sort of "universe" before it started to expand since even IF that was the case you would still NEED something to cause it to expand and since that something couldn't be "itself", it must be something else.

Now, you may ask, WHY couldn't the "universe" has started itself?
Because that would mean that the universe would present properties and qualities RIGHT NOW that would make it possible for something that comes into being, to come into being BEFORE it existed.
OR, something would have to "act onto itself, by itself, for itself" to cause expansion and THAT would mean that we would see the characteristics of that ability to "act onto itself, by itself, for itself" present in the universe.
And we do not.

That is the point I was trying to make! Your faith gives you answers to what existed prior to the singularity that lead to the BB. Science does not have such answers; that is what I meant when I said your faith goes beyond science; mine does not. I was not my intention to offend you.

No Ken, it isn't faith that leads me there, it is reason.

.

Paul, I disagree
There is so much logic that accompanies our 'faith' but it remains faith.
Even when we get down the nitty gritty of the first cause and the scientific findings that substantially support an intelligent designer...
It's faith
Not blind faith
But still faith
It's not a dirty word.

Our Gospel is built around it
To believe
To place our trust
Which is what ultimately saves..
People come to Christ in many ways., and through many discoveries but at the end of it all
It's faith
Unashamedly and with Proclamation we have faith in Christ

Faith is a beautiful word and an even more beautiful state of being

melanie wrote:Paul, I disagree
There is so much logic that accompanies our 'faith' but it remains faith.
Even when we get down the nitty gritty of the first cause and the scientific findings that substantially support an intelligent designer...
It's faith
Not blind faith
But still faith
It's not a dirty word.

Our Gospel is built around it
To believe
To place our trust
Which is what ultimately saves..
People come to Christ in many ways., and through many discoveries but at the end of it all
It's faith
Unashamedly and with Proclamation we have faith in Christ

Faith is a beautiful word and an even more beautiful state of being

You may not have understood what I wrote.
Long before I had Faith in Christ I believed, by reason, that something had to have caused the big bang.
Whatever it may have been.
It was through my faith in Christ that I was lead to the writings of Aquinas that helped me to understand WHY that "whatever" MUST be God.

Faith had very little to do with my believe that the universes didn't just suddenly, randomly, for no reason, expand by sheer act of itself.

Wish You Could Hear.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwlzD6zqpgY

PaulSacramento wrote:What I mean by this is that nothing can have qualities that do not pertain to itself and the universe, since it had a beginning and it continues to expand, requires and :outside force" to make it "come into being" as we know it.

It doesn't really matter IF there was some sort of "universe" before it started to expand since even IF that was the case you would still NEED something to cause it to expand and since that something couldn't be "itself", it must be something else.

According to science, dark energy is responsible for the accelerated expansion of the Universe. How do you know dark energy isn't responsible for the initial expansion of the Universe (big bang)?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_energy

PaulSacramento wrote:Now, you may ask, WHY couldn't the "universe" has started itself?
Because that would mean that the universe would present properties and qualities RIGHT NOW that would make it possible for something that comes into being, to come into being BEFORE it existed.
OR, something would have to "act onto itself, by itself, for itself" to cause expansion and THAT would mean that we would see the characteristics of that ability to "act onto itself, by itself, for itself" present in the universe.
And we do not.

Are you suggesting the Universe did not exist at all prior to the Big Bang?

Ken

Steven Hawking suggests that the universe came into existence with the Big Bang.
http://www.hawking.org.uk/the-beginning-of-time.html

Atheists cannot go back prior to the singularity but the reason we can is because by reason we know all things have a cause and God is the most logical cause based on who God is and what he can do. On the other hand atheists have absolutely nothing on the other side of the singularity to point to as a cause. Science does not have a cause so atheists can only wait for their answer. Science may not say,but God is definately a cause for the singularity and the expansion of the Universe and dark matter,everything in the Universe. You have nothing before the singularity because everything came into being in the Universe after it,not before it according to peer reviewed science.

If you reject God? You only have speculation that is not real science and does not make as much sense as God so you willingly take the long way around to deny God the most logical cause and use imagination and illogical assumptions,or just have to wait to see if science ever learns of a cause besides God. But atheists have been waiting for atleast 100 or so years and regardless of what science comes up with,it still points to God as the most logical cause.