Evidence for God from Science

Mallz wrote:

Audie wrote: Why yes; an example of self-indulgence such as I was so excoriated for mentioning.

How/why were you excoriated?

Our friend who was talking about how if there is no meaning in life, he'd kill himself.
He didnt like it when I said it was self indulgent, and a couple more people pig- piled.

"Excoriate" is a over statement.

IceMobster wrote:The first thing that popped into my mind after reading this is the question: isn't that selfish?

Of course not. The basic reason we weep and grieve when we lose someone we love is because we love them. The only way to take away the pain of loss is to take away love for the person lost. That would be the truly selfish thing.

Please, y'all stop being so "spiritual" in all this. Grief is a human emotion. Grant the best of intentions in your comments (speaking to those of you who are suggesting that you don't grieve or that grief is inappropriate), look at the message you are sending to others. You take someone who is grieving the loss of spouse or child or friend or whatever, and you are calling them selfish?!?

When I first started my clinical training, I was told that my first responsibility was to do no harm. I wish ministers would take that advice to heart. I can't tell you how many messes I have to clean up after some well intentioned preacher comes in and tells a family not to be selfish or that God must have had a reason to take them or that everything happens for a reason or that God won't give you more than you can handle or whatever other stupid and hurtful cliche you can think of. These poor souls are being tortured by their own spirituality, and their preachers are the ones holding the pitchforks. It's unintentional, of course. More, the preachers (and Christian friends) are trying to be helpful. But they don't know what to say, so rather than just grieving WITH the hurting person (which is what Jesus did at Lazarus' tomb, by the way), they start trying to fix it. They start telling them reasons why they ought not feel that way. And then, on top of grief, the person starts feeling guilty for feeling sad . . . for feeling an emotion God gave them!

I'm not denying that there is peace in the midst of Christian grief. We can rejoice (truly) in knowing that our loved one is in glory, that they are at perfect peace and no longer hurting, in knowing that this is only a temporary see-you-later and not a permanent goodbye. We can look forward to seeing them again and sing "When We All Get to Heaven" with passion. But don't say therefore that grief and sadness are out of place or wrong. Remember that death is an enemy. Christ had to defeat it. When our loved one dies, we feel lonely, and that's the first thing that God said is not good. It's not selfish, then, to be sad in the face of death. It is profoundly human. Once again, Jesus felt sadness and grief. It's just that we can have hope that our grief is not forever, and that is something to thank God for.

So, please, for the love of all that is good, stop with the "there's no reason to be sad" talk. That kind of talk causes real emotional harm to people.

Jac3510 wrote:

IceMobster wrote:The first thing that popped into my mind after reading this is the question: isn't that selfish?

Of course not. The basic reason we weep and grieve when we lose someone we love is because we love them. The only way to take away the pain of loss is to take away love for the person lost. That would be the truly selfish thing.

Please, y'all stop being so "spiritual" in all this. Grief is a human emotion. Grant the best of intentions in your comments (speaking to those of you who are suggesting that you don't grieve or that grief is inappropriate), look at the message you are sending to others. You take someone who is grieving the loss of spouse or child or friend or whatever, and you are calling them selfish?!?

When I first started my clinical training, I was told that my first responsibility was to do no harm. I wish ministers would take that advice to heart. I can't tell you how many messes I have to clean up after some well intentioned preacher comes in and tells a family not to be selfish or that God must have had a reason to take them or that everything happens for a reason or that God won't give you more than you can handle or whatever other stupid and hurtful cliche you can think of. These poor souls are being tortured by their own spirituality, and their preachers are the ones holding the pitchforks. It's unintentional, of course. More, the preachers (and Christian friends) are trying to be helpful. But they don't know what to say, so rather than just grieving WITH the hurting person (which is what Jesus did at Lazarus' tomb, by the way), they start trying to fix it. They start telling them reasons why they ought not feel that way. And then, on top of grief, the person starts feeling guilty for feeling sad . . . for feeling an emotion God gave them!

I'm not denying that there is peace in the midst of Christian grief. We can rejoice (truly) in knowing that our loved one is in glory, that they are at perfect peace and no longer hurting, in knowing that this is only a temporary see-you-later and not a permanent goodbye. We can look forward to seeing them again and sing "When We All Get to Heaven" with passion. But don't say therefore that grief and sadness are out of place or wrong. Remember that death is an enemy. Christ had to defeat it. When our loved one dies, we feel lonely, and that's the first thing that God said is not good. It's not selfish, then, to be sad in the face of death. It is profoundly human. Once again, Jesus felt sadness and grief. It's just that we can have hope that our grief is not forever, and that is something to thank God for.

So, please, for the love of all that is good, stop with the "there's no reason to be sad" talk. That kind of talk causes real emotional harm to people.

Wise words
Seems to me that you're in the right line of work Jac.

Great insights to your experience and training, Jac!

And it makes total sense, that a grieving person experiencing a confusing jumble of emotions surely doesn't need someone attempting to clarify some tidy narrative of them. In grief, I've always felt most comforted by those simply showing genuine concern or love - even if their actual words are very minimal.

So, please, for the love of all that is good, stop with the "there's no reason to be sad" talk

I know what you're saying, Jac. And have spent much time with many people in these situations. Most people handle life events in very similar fashions. Yes, they need to be able to express the emotions they are feeling and be appropriately enabled through them, not cut off from feeling them. And many people wouldn't be ready to hear nor understand such things as 'trust the Lord, He knew this would happen and is a part of the plan' as it would come off as insensitive and could very well help trap a soul. But I do know, and I do see it. I see the connections and effects of people with/on each other and how He moves. There isn't a reason to be sad. I'm sad for others who feel their loss who have no hope. I'm sad for her mother. I'm not sad for her, and I'm not sad for me and there's no reason to grieve. And I don't hide from myself.

There's a difference between reality, how we engage in it and how much can be revealed to understand it (which is progressive). You're talking about helping people through tough times. I'm talking about the reality of life that can almost never be grasped in that moment (not the right time of revelation). I have to disagree with you and it's not a reality for me.

BGoodForGoodSake wrote:http://www.ted.com/talks/matthew_o_reil ... anguage=en

I read that.

The question that pricks my mind to ask is:
Whether upon being told they are going to die, such intuition with the feeling of guilty and higher meaning and purpose (the need to be remembered), is something to be truly met. You know, why do we feel such so deeply. Like water quenched first, and food takes away hunger, Is there true forgiveness to be found for our wrongs? And maybe our desire for things to be eternally remembered is found in One who sees and knows all eternally.

Ecclesiastes 3:11 -

• "He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart; yet no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end."

Philip wrote:Great insights to your experience and training, Jac!

And it makes total sense, that a grieving person experiencing a confusing jumble of emotions surely doesn't need someone attempting to clarify some tidy narrative of them. In grief, I've always felt most comforted by those simply showing genuine concern or love - even if their actual words are very minimal.

Exactly. Give them a hug, a few words of sympathy, and a pot of soup. After that shut up, pay attention, and do your best to be responsive to their needs. It's not about you, and telling them all about your worldview is definitely making it about you.

Knowing people care helps.
As does a sympathetic ear and a hug.

Mallz wrote:Hahahaha, I guess I'm running the race with IceMobster.
My cousin committed suicide a couple months ago. I grew up with her and we were very close. I was not sad. I was happy for her. And a bit jealous she got to Him first (I just know she's going to flaunt having more knowledge/wisdom for a certain amount of 'time' at me when I see her again )
And I'm talking about this cousin: http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... in#p141095

This is going to sound cold, but it's not intended that way.
Evidently, you don't believe committing suicide removes one's from Christ?

Kurieuo wrote:

Mallz wrote:Hahahaha, I guess I'm running the race with IceMobster.
My cousin committed suicide a couple months ago. I grew up with her and we were very close. I was not sad. I was happy for her. And a bit jealous she got to Him first (I just know she's going to flaunt having more knowledge/wisdom for a certain amount of 'time' at me when I see her again )
And I'm talking about this cousin: http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... in#p141095

This is going to sound cold, but it's not intended that way.
Evidently, you don't believe committing suicide removes one's from Christ?

Eternal security would take care of that, wouldn't it?

Nicki wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:

Mallz wrote:Hahahaha, I guess I'm running the race with IceMobster.
My cousin committed suicide a couple months ago. I grew up with her and we were very close. I was not sad. I was happy for her. And a bit jealous she got to Him first (I just know she's going to flaunt having more knowledge/wisdom for a certain amount of 'time' at me when I see her again )
And I'm talking about this cousin: http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... in#p141095

This is going to sound cold, but it's not intended that way.
Evidently, you don't believe committing suicide removes one's from Christ?

Eternal security would take care of that, wouldn't it?

I'm not sure "eternal security" has anything to do with it, while there's merit to such doctrine -- I mean it just seems to me like a dressed up term for what God's grace and forgiveness in Christ actually means. Understand the Gospel and it's kind of like a necessary corollary.

It could possibly be argued, that taking your life is the biggest insult to God and the Holy Spirit. (Matt 12:31-32)

You know, I'm certain Mallz cousin was still saved. I pray she did truly believe in Christ, although she was wrong to kill herself; I can see the allure to such. However, if you've ever decided to take your own life, then you'll understand this question really niggles. It's like the ultimate version of put your money where you mouth is in grace doctrine and faith in Christ. Right?

Kurieuo wrote:

Nicki wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:

Mallz wrote:Hahahaha, I guess I'm running the race with IceMobster.
My cousin committed suicide a couple months ago. I grew up with her and we were very close. I was not sad. I was happy for her. And a bit jealous she got to Him first (I just know she's going to flaunt having more knowledge/wisdom for a certain amount of 'time' at me when I see her again )
And I'm talking about this cousin: http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... in#p141095

This is going to sound cold, but it's not intended that way.
Evidently, you don't believe committing suicide removes one's from Christ?

Eternal security would take care of that, wouldn't it?

I'm not sure "eternal security" has anything to do with it, while there's merit to such doctrine -- I mean it just seems to me like a dressed up term for what God's grace and forgiveness in Christ actually means. Understand the Gospel and it's kind of like a necessary corollary.

It could possibly be argued, that taking your life is the biggest insult to God and the Holy Spirit. (Matt 12:31-32)

You know, I'm certain Mallz cousin was still saved. I pray she did truly believe in Christ, although she was wrong to kill herself; I can see the allure to such. However, if you've ever decided to take your own life, then you'll understand this question really niggles. It's like the ultimate version of put your money where you mouth is in grace doctrine and faith in Christ. Right?

I don't think Matthew 12:31-32 was addressing suicide at all, but I'm sure you know that K, and you're just drawing a parallel. Regardless I don't think the passage sheds light on the issue.

However that's a really great question in regards to a Christian committing suicide, it places grace, or more so absolute conviction in it to the test in the most final of ways. Oh I guess that's what you meant by Matt 12:31-32 reference. Lightbulb moment.

If it was done in a sound state of mind then that would count.
But anyone driven to such extremes is not thinking logically, they're just not.
I have always felt extreme compassion for people who committed suicide but I saw it as a cop out. A violation of God, a selfish act when you really get down to it.
Until it was my best mate.
She was the woman on top of everything, in control and my go to girl in every crisis. Then she had a back injury which led to surgery, which was botched, which led to 5 more surgeries and damaged nerves, steel plates and a lifetime of pain management with narcotic drugs.
I watched as she turned into the strongest person I knew to a crying mess in bed that was so lost in depression she felt helpless and I felt helpless. She has two kids and I pleaded with her to not not go through with it, knowing she had the drugs at her disposal to do the job. I have never seen such helplessness, it was an utter despair.
People who contemplate suicide are at such low points in their lives, that there is no conscious choice to violate God's law, it's not done to spite God, or in spite of God. It's the very end of human resilience. When living life pales so significantly to going home.
They just want peace.

That's horrible Melanie. back injury and botched operation.

I fear that in hospitals, really have zero faith in Australia's.
The midwives with Kiah's birth were actually panicing and went blank.

There was only one who was thinking.
And I was saying, ok, the babies coming, you might want to put gloves on.
LOL. They were still going through the checklist to "work out" how far along she was.

Absolutely clueless. The baby's coming... but they're trying to follow their processes.
Umm... baby is crowning... the one midwife with it, just put her gloves on and Kiah popped out onto the bed.

The time before that though, same hospital, and they were really quite brilliant.
I guess it's like a lucky draw. But it's sad that someone can get so messed up, and then what?
Hate hearing stories like that, just makes you feel horrible all over.
I can only imagine how you felt, and she felt.

Kurieuo wrote:That's horrible Melanie. back injury and botched operation.

I fear that in hospitals, really have zero faith in Australia's.
The midwives with Kiah's birth were actually panicing and went blank.

There was only one who was thinking.
And I was saying, ok, the babies coming, you might want to put gloves on.
LOL. They were still going through the checklist to "work out" how far along she was.

Absolutely clueless. The baby's coming... but they're trying to follow their processes.
Umm... baby is crowning... the one midwife with it, just put her gloves on and Kiah popped out onto the bed.

The time before that though, same hospital, and they were really quite brilliant.
I guess it's like a lucky draw. But it's sad that someone can get so messed up, and then what?
Hate hearing stories like that, just makes you feel horrible all over.
I can only imagine how you felt, and she felt.

She is actually really understanding to what happened. Surgeons were working within her spinal cord and there is a high degree of error. But nevertheless it changed her life. Mistakes were made. Shards of the spinal column ended up impacting on the nervous system.
She's been left with chronic pain and nerve issues.

I realised just how much psychical ailments impact on the mental and spiritual. I told here one time she would never be alone dealing with it, I've been stalking her ever since

This is going to sound cold, but it's not intended that way.
Evidently, you don't believe committing suicide removes one's from Christ?

No, I don't. And it doesn't come off cold. Ask me anything you want; I don't get caught up in emotional tiffies because of words. And nothing is off limits with me to talk about.

Re: eternal security. What do you mean by eternal security? I kinda doubt I believe the same as most in regards to it. I was given enough reason to have the faith to believe she is with Him. She wasn't a Christian most her life. In the week before she died she came to Him with two different people on two different occasions. I talked with who she talked with and am satisfied with what I heard. It was a gift of peace to know. Could I be wrong? Of course, but I don't have any reason to believe I am and will find out soon enough.

You know, I'm certain Mallz cousin was still saved. I pray she did truly believe in Christ, although she was wrong to kill herself; I can see the allure to such. However, if you've ever decided to take your own life, then you'll understand this question really niggles. It's like the ultimate version of put your money where you mouth is in grace doctrine and faith in Christ. Right?

Wrong to kill herself, yes. As it is only destructive and cuts one off from bringing His goodness around them throughout their lives. I don't see taking ones own life as an insult to Him; nor it blaspheming the Holy Spirit to be a reality.

People who contemplate suicide are at such low points in their lives, that there is no conscious choice to violate God's law, it's not done to spite God, or in spite of God. It's the very end of human resilience. When living life pales so significantly to going home.
They just want peace.

Very well said, Mel. From my personal experiences and the experiences of others, an existential crisis is almost always at play.