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Re: Answering an atheist

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:21 pm
by smsavage32
crackpot wrote:The question is dumb and is asked by an equally dumb atheist.
Nevertheless, the correct answer to this dumb question is that the Christian God is sovereign and does what he pleases according to his will.
As one of the "dumb" atheist (thank for the insults) I agree with your point.

"the Christian God is sovereign and does what he pleases according to his will."

I think that if more Christians would actually read their Bibles and realized this, then us "dumb" atheists wouldn't have to ask so many "dumb" questions designed to point out when Christians are believing in something that is obviously a paradox.

AND, then the "smarter than an Atheist" Christian wouldn't be in such a "Dilemma" to answer it.

Re: Answering an atheist

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:40 pm
by B. W.
smsavage32 wrote:
crackpot wrote:The question is dumb and is asked by an equally dumb atheist.
Nevertheless, the correct answer to this dumb question is that the Christian God is sovereign and does what he pleases according to his will.
As one of the "dumb" atheist (thank for the insults) I agree with your point.

"the Christian God is sovereign and does what he pleases according to his will."

I think that if more Christians would actually read their Bibles and realized this, then us "dumb" atheists wouldn't have to ask so many "dumb" questions designed to point out when Christians are believing in something that is obviously a paradox.

AND, then the "smarter than an Atheist" Christian wouldn't be in such a "Dilemma" to answer it.
There once was a kindly man. Decent, always did right, judged fairly, never lied, always kept his promises, like to give with no strings attached, a man true to his word, honest, trustworthy, strong, and wise, never a fault with this man.

One day his neighbors said to another neighbor, "Let's have some fun. The old man can't lie, and is kind, never does wrong so let's make him do wrong and prove he is not all that he says he is."

"Yes, sounds grand," replied the other neighbor, " Let's make him live up to his own standards and character and in doing so trip him up as a hypocrite, take him for everything he's got, make him a laughing stock."

So they went about toying and gaming this man. Manipulating his kindness for their gain. Abusing his good character. Challenging him at every turn in order to prove he was not just, fair, kind, true to his word all the while failing to provoke him to act unjust.

The man extended grace, gave gifts, and reacted with kindness to them both.

Then one day, all the other neighbors in the city saw what was really going on and asked why didn't the kindly man react and finally silence the two provocateurs. They implored the kind man that he would be just in doing so and right away too!

However the kindly man let the evidence of the two provocateurs inner nature manifest with each insult for all to see. Each act continually stacked the deck against them. The two neighbors proved themselves cruel, mean, seeking character assassination, even murdered his prized horses one summer eve.

The talk in the city soon swelled in a crescendo, "Why wouldn't he act? After all he had every right."

The kindly man responded, "The evidence is irrefutable, these two neighbors have continued to rob, steal, and kill despite my sending kind gifts to them. They proved their hate. Now I can react justly with the full force of the law on my side."

So he did...

...never going against his own charter, nature, word, or his own sovereign will.
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Re: Answering an atheist

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 11:00 pm
by Kurieuo
smsavage32 wrote:
Thomaskutty wrote:A friend of mine who is an atheist challenged me with a question like this.

A tiger chasing a deer prays not to skip its prey while deer prays to save his life from the tiger. Whose prayer will be answered if God is just ?. This question put me in a dilemma. Can anybody reasonably give an explanation to this question.
I don't see this as a dilemma. What is more likely, that God will answer an evil prayer, or that people are lying when they say that God answers all prayers?
And what is "evil" to you savage?
Could you imagine if all prayers were answered? :shock:

Re: Answering an atheist

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 1:52 am
by abelcainsbrother
smsavage32 wrote:
People are starving NOT because God does nothing but because WE do nothing.
You are presenting what is know as the classical argument from suffering, the EMOTIONAL problem of pain and suffering.
As an atheist, I'm always amazed at how often Christians side step this question with the "classical argument from suffering" dismissal. y[-(
And you are asking WHy God permits this, indeed you are demanding that God SHOULD do ...
Followed by the "Who the Hell are you to ask such a question" attack. y:-?
... and yet failing to realize ...


Followed by the "You are lacking in mental capacity" insult. 8-}2

Is there any Christian out there that wants to take on the actual problem that is keeping the skeptic a skeptic, or is converting people to Christ just not very important to Christians?
God has been honest in his word about suffering and you'll find it althroughout the bible,but the bible also tells us why and either a person trusts God or they don't but you should not just assume it has gone unanswered and God has not dealt with it.

The most powerful men of God,men God used suffered,seen it and dealt with it even Jesus himself suffered far,far more than any of us ever will in this world but we will too from time to time experience suffering.

The bible makes it clear there will be suffering until Jesus returns and so we should expect it but at the same time God has given us ways to deal with it and to get though the pains of this world.

How long do you think you will live? 70,80,90 maybe? Have you ever thought about eternity? Because if you think the suffering in this world is bad, have you considered hell for eternity?Jesus made salvation for sinners too easy to reject it and take a chance that once you die,you're in hell for eternity and not just 70,80 maybe 90 years of seeing suffering in this world we live in now.
Romans 8:22-23.

Re: Answering an atheist

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 6:00 am
by Audie
abelcainsbrother wrote:In my experience with atheists despite this stuff they claim about quoting the bible,like it is not going to convince them of anything until we prove to them God's word is true? Really we should just quote the bible and preach the gospel regardless of what they claim because no matter how much evidence we provide them showing them evidence and reasons to believe they just ignore it.All of this trying to prove the bible true to them is just a cop-out because they just play the denial game. No matter what evidence you might give them they just deny it.

The reason why they do this without realizing it is because it is they that have absolutely no evidence atheism is true and yet despite this fact it is they that believe atheism is true with no evidence at all and so no amount of evidence or reasons to believe or philosophical reasons,etc will convince them,because if they can accept atheism with no evidence? Then evidence will not be important to them and this is why evidence we Christians have given them will not persuade them.

Therefore we might as well just quote scripture and preach the gospel,I think we would have just as much of a chance of convincing them the bible is true than if we give them evidence. It is time atheists provide proof atheism is true because even false religions have more evidence than atheism does.

Atheists have absolutely nothing to bring to the table when it comes to evidence,they have nothing to hedge their bets with and yet they have willingly given atheism a pass for a lack of evidence while demanding we prove to them the bible is true. Evidence is not important to an atheist like they let on about,it is just an opinion at best they cling to without any kind of evidence that they choose to cling to and they choose to prop up their opinion over Christianity and religion.

Wish You could Hear
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwlzD6zqpgY
If a gappist really wants people to believe the bible the best he could do is
to keep his mouth shut, on both the gappistry and the insulting falsehoods you make up about
people and ideas about which you haven't a clue

Re: Answering an atheist

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 6:07 am
by PaulSacramento
smsavage32 wrote:
People are starving NOT because God does nothing but because WE do nothing.
You are presenting what is know as the classical argument from suffering, the EMOTIONAL problem of pain and suffering.
As an atheist, I'm always amazed at how often Christians side step this question with the "classical argument from suffering" dismissal. y[-(
And you are asking WHy God permits this, indeed you are demanding that God SHOULD do ...
Followed by the "Who the Hell are you to ask such a question" attack. y:-?
... and yet failing to realize ...


Followed by the "You are lacking in mental capacity" insult. 8-}2

Is there any Christian out there that wants to take on the actual problem that is keeping the skeptic a skeptic, or is converting people to Christ just not very important to Christians?

The reality is that you fail the grasp the Christian concept of God and what it means for God to be ALL powerful and ALL loving and you decide to define those traits as, somehow, meaning that God MUST do this or That, that He somehow OWES Us to fix our messes.

I too am skeptical that YOUR God exists.

Saying that you don't; understand the Christian concept of God is not an insult but a statment base don the very clear fact that you don't.

It isn't about a person NOT daring to question God ( the bible is full of people that do, to His "face" even), it is about the question being, well, misinformed about WHO and WHAT God is.

Re: Answering an atheist

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 6:12 am
by Audie
The particular all loving god that christians visualize is of course indistinguishable
from one that does not exist at all.

Re: Answering an atheist

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 6:21 am
by Byblos
Audie wrote:The particular all loving god that christians visualize is of course indistinguishable
from one that does not exist at all.
Nonsense. No, I really mean that, it is utter nonsense to state the Christian God (otherwise known simply as God or being or existence) doesn't exist. Complete nonsense. It is the equivalent of saying existence doesn't exist.

Re: Answering an atheist

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 6:51 am
by PaulSacramento
Audie wrote:The particular all loving god that christians visualize is of course indistinguishable
from one that does not exist at all.
To add to what BW said and to address the "all loving":
I think the hardest things for us to grasp ( and I was very guilty of this too and it was the reason that I was agnostic for so long) is that ALL Loving actually means ALL loving.
See, God can't NOT love because He IS love and because He is love, He loves ALL.
Even those that do evil.
More than that, because God "wants" ( and I put want in quotation for obvious reasons ) us to love Him and each other ( loving God is the only way to reach full human potential) God KNOWS ( of course) that love can NOT be forced or coerced and MUST be free.
In short, people MUST be able to freely choose to LOVE or NOT to love and God can't interfere in that no more than He can make a 4 sided triangle ( it is a logical impossibility for an all loving and all powerful God to disallow free will).
Those that choose to not love will then do hateful and evil things ( hate and evil is the absence of love).
They are "allowed" to those things, even at the expense of others because they CHOOSE to and God does not interfere for the obvious, logical reasons.

No all knowing and all powerful and all loving being can FORCE compliance to love because that go against the very nature of love.

There is pain and suffering in the world because people FREELY CHOOSE to inflict pain and suffering in the world.

Re: Answering an atheist

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 6:53 am
by PaulSacramento
Byblos wrote:
Audie wrote:The particular all loving god that christians visualize is of course indistinguishable
from one that does not exist at all.
Nonsense. No, I really mean that, it is utter nonsense to state the Christian God (otherwise known simply as God or being or existence) doesn't exist. Complete nonsense. It is the equivalent of saying existence doesn't exist.

I really do NOT think that atheist grasp that simple fact in regards to the Christian understanding of God.
That is why they "make up" their own version of God and go about disproving the existence of THAT God.

Re: Answering an atheist

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 7:28 am
by RickD
Audie wrote:The particular all loving god that christians visualize is of course indistinguishable
from one that does not exist at all.
Audie,

How can a really smart lady say such a stupid thing?

Re: Answering an atheist

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 7:30 am
by B. W.
Audie wrote:The particular all loving god that christians visualize is of course indistinguishable
from one that does not exist at all.
There once was a kindly man. Decent, always did right, judged fairly, never lied, always kept his promises, like to give with no strings attached, a man true to his word, honest, trustworthy, strong, and wise, never a fault with this man.

One day his neighbors said to another neighbor, "Let's have some fun. The old man can't lie, and is kind, never does wrong so let's make him do wrong and prove he is not all that he says he is."

"Yes, sounds grand," replied the other neighbor, " Let's make him live up to his own standards and character and in doing so trip him up as a hypocrite, take him for everything he's got, make him a laughing stock."

So they went about toying and gaming this man. Manipulating his kindness for their gain. Abusing his good character. Challenging him at every turn in order to prove he was not just, fair, kind, true to his word all the while failing to provoke him to act unjust.

The man extended grace, gave gifts, and reacted with kindness to them both.

Then one day, all the other neighbors in the city saw what was really going on and asked why didn't the kindly man react and finally silence the two provocateurs. They implored the kind man that he would be just in doing so and right away too!

However the kindly man let the evidence of the two provocateurs inner nature manifest with each insult for all to see. Each act continually stacked the deck against them. The two neighbors proved themselves cruel, mean, seeking character assassination, even murdered his prized horses one summer eve.

The talk in the city soon swelled in a crescendo, "Why wouldn't he act? After all he had every right."

The kindly man responded, "The evidence is irrefutable, these two neighbors have continued to rob, steal, and kill despite my sending kind gifts to them. They proved their hate. Now I can react justly with the full force of the law on my side."

So he did...

...never going against his own charter, nature, word, or his own sovereign will.
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PaulSacramento wrote:..There is pain and suffering in the world because people FREELY CHOOSE to inflict pain and suffering in the world.

Re: Answering an atheist

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 7:33 am
by RickD
B. W.,

Is that your autobiography?
B. W. wrote:No it is not...

Re: Answering an atheist

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:37 am
by B. W.
PaulSacramento wrote:..There is pain and suffering in the world because people FREELY CHOOSE to inflict pain and suffering in the world.
This is done to entice God to act contrary to his own nature.

I find this a paradox; that militant atheist tout diversity, freedom, champion free thinking, yet decry such freedom as a great injustice because the god in their image and likeness does not use force to stop it. y:-?

Many of them, here, on this forum, put Christians on trial in their minds with a guilty verdict already determined as they do with God. They seek to take away religious freedom by playing games with law. Since they have successfully removed God from the public consciousness and the public square by feigning they are being persecuted how is the USA, the West, and Europe faring now?

Militant atheist cannot live up to their own standards of freedom and acceptance and their own rights for all. For to do so demands that they take away certain rights actually produces a logical contradiction in their ideology. Yet, God Almighty lives up to his own standards of character, even to them.

He granted a gift of life to them, to all peoples. He reneges no gift. He acts according to His own absolute standards of character by doing what is right wisely and justly, and fairly. Proving he is able to all powerfully work through all things free thinking beings can conjure up in attempts to pit his standards against each other in hope of tripping him up.

Such provocateurs never seem to get it, that the god they wish for to prove his existence to them is one they would not like as such a being would need deny liberty to them. Neither do they see this either; that it is human beings misusing, misappropriating, manipulating, abusing, exploiting, what God gave them. It is humanity that causes all the woe and sadness in the world.

I have come to the conclusion, that militant atheist have no clue in regards to fairness, justice, love as their actions prove that they do not actually live according to these but rather seek justification to bring to ruin society and all things around them by flights of utopic visions of fantasy.

They often say that only if Christians would read their bibles that they would see the errors of his or her ways. How ignorant and accusatory and judgmental is that? And think, they mock that only Christians are judgmental!

Well, many of us do and have read the bible over and over and over again. We study the original languages, know the bible better than they do as well as the historical facts involved. I find it amazing how militant atheist will shout for justice but deny justice to Christians in the court of public opinion.

They bear false witness, character assassinate with impunity, seek to steel rights away from people, put people on trial in their minds and arguments, betray, mock, demand performance, claim they seek proof of truth when according to them truth is merely relative to some social popular narrative (counter productive is it not?). They seek to kill all notions of faith, that is, accept their faith in humanism's triumph.

They cannot see that for God do act as they demand to prove His existence would require the cessation of their own provocateuring. No, instead, God let's them go on with their antics, trying to reach a closed mind that chooses to be blind to him. Why would God continue to do this?

He understands everyone needs a chance to vent, a chance to turn away from the life course of emptiness one will discover in due time increasing within themselves, a chance to return to him of his or her own accord. In no way does he violate any gift of reason or conscience or free moral agency. He even swears to his own hurt allowing himself to be mocked, ignored, maligned in order to awaken people, justly, that it is they who cause all woe. The evidence stacks up.

He has a better way and offers it freely, and for that, militant atheist provocateurs persuade society to debase into more chaos instead. Just look around, families fractured, divorce rampant, children abused, more rapes promoted, honoring a window of opportunity for sexual predators to enter women's rest rooms under the disguise of transgender civil rights, open hostility, indolence promoted as a virtue, disrespect for those in authority, promote anarchism as a virtue for change, promote division, strife, promote subtle hate, all under the disuse of innocence and noble intentions. The evidence continues to stack up.

The true fruit of militant atheism is they same for all humanity and that is this: it is we who do the evil and then blame God for our own actions, our dysfunctions, and our own lack of virtue. The evidence continues to stack up.

I am thankful that God is slow to anger and grants all people plenty of time to see the error of his or her ways as well as provided the means to be rid of all our dysfunctions and escape all the evidence that we have stacked against ourselves.

Amen!!!

And for this, militant atheist, accuse God of doing things wrong...
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Re: Answering an atheist

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 10:04 am
by PaulSacramento
Well said BW.
I have often asked skeptics what proof that would deem acceptable and I find it interesting the the majority reply in a way the they would find unacceptable to other skeptics: Personal revelation.
BUT of course that IS the only honest answer any septic can give IF they want undeniable proof.