Evidence for God from Science

B. W. wrote:
question:

A - just born again gal, new to he kingdom of God, bible, the church is in a live in relationship with her boyfriend.

So should the new convert be kicked out of the church, brow beaten, ostracized, shunned by the Church justified by 1 Co 5:9-11?

What testimony for Christ does that pose?

Assuming I know only what you just stated, how could she be kicked out of the church?

Not enough info.

B. W. wrote:
question:

A - just born again gal, new to he kingdom of God, bible, the church is in a live in relationship with her boyfriend.

So should the new convert be kicked out of the church, brow beaten, ostracized, shunned by the Church justified by 1 Co 5:9-11?

What testimony for Christ does that pose?

As Rick said, not enough info. Has anyone spoken with her about this? Has she talked to the pastor? Have there been counseling sessions? Is she, in a word, unrepentant or merely undiscipled? If this new believer has been in this situation after counseling for an extended period of time, then the church may have to take that step. Again, all of this is a matter of church discipline. You don't just see a sin, point the finger, and excommunicate. You try anything and everything you can first, and if the person simply remains in a state of willful disobedience, then there's just no place for them, at least during that time, for fellowship with the body. Until then, she remains in full communion with the body in hopes that the communion itself will lead to repentance.

Jac3510 wrote:

B. W. wrote:
question:

A - just born again gal, new to he kingdom of God, bible, the church is in a live in relationship with her boyfriend.

So should the new convert be kicked out of the church, brow beaten, ostracized, shunned by the Church justified by 1 Co 5:9-11?

What testimony for Christ does that pose?

As Rick said, not enough info. Has anyone spoken with her about this? Has she talked to the pastor? Have there been counseling sessions? Is she, in a word, unrepentant or merely undiscipled? If this new believer has been in this situation after counseling for an extended period of time, then the church may have to take that step. Again, all of this is a matter of church discipline. You don't just see a sin, point the finger, and excommunicate. You try anything and everything you can first, and if the person simply remains in a state of willful disobedience, then there's just no place for them, at least during that time, for fellowship with the body. Until then, she remains in full communion with the body in hopes that the communion itself will lead to repentance.

I say give her to the Catholics. It seems nowadays they'll take anyone. Even horrible sinners, the vilest of heathens who has sex outside of wedlock.

Then, when she's tired of working for her salvation, welcome her back. By then she'll be married, and no longer a horrible, wretched sex addict.

that woman is to stop sex with her boyfriend, right?
and if he does not like that, end of relationship,
right?

1over137 wrote:that woman is to stop sex with her boyfriend, right?
and if he does not like that, end of relationship,
right?

No. There's no evidence that she's having sex, first of all.

let's take a scenario in which there is sex.
then what?

1over137 wrote:let's take a scenario in which there is sex.
then what?

I would first suggest that she seek God on the issue. Seek His will.

I guess I'm not as strict as some others with this. I don't see that in all cases, this person should be made to leave the church. There may be deeper issues with her that she needs fellowship for. She could need the help of others that she won't get if she's kicked out.

We need to take each case separately.

We all sin. I'm not sure what the difference is between open sin, and other sin, other than that other sin just isn't out in the open for all to know about. We are all sinners. We all have skeletons in our closets. If I hide my sins from others in the church, does that make me more worthy of fellowship, than the woman who confesses her sins to others? I don't think so. The fact is that we all struggle with something.

I ask because my story is similar
now we are married (civil marriage)
still not baptized
longing for church
not many opportunities to visit as I care about my husband now
but I suffer ... not being with Christians...

1over137 wrote:I ask because my story is similar
now we are married (civil marriage)
still not baptized
longing for church
not many opportunities to visit as I care about my husband now
but I suffer ... not being with Christians...

I know we aren't the same as a physical church. And I know we can be dysfunctional too.

But whatever we are, we are here for you.

I appreciate that Rick

So - there's a gal in church who's just gotten saved and who's in a sexual relationship with her boyfriend. She realizes she should Not be doing the sexual but doesn't want to loose her boyfriend, either. So - she explains to her boyfriend Why she feels that way. and it's pretty much His choice of which is more important -- the sex or his relationship with Her.

There was a situation where the couple was very happy together and then the wife was invited to a Bible study -- she got saved and was convicted that their social drinking wasn't right. They had been successful in business and were part of that social set. So She followed her conscience. She politely refused to do the social drinking. Which meant that she didn't go to the cocktail parties with him. He continued to go without her and started getting to know another woman. After a while he left her / divorced and she ended up with two small children and not much of a house and an old car. She did as much as She could and had help from the church family. After a couple of years or so, she met a guy who's wife had divorced him and They got together. Her two kids decided to go live with their dad cause he and his new wife had much more lenient standards. So the ex-wife and new husband had a family of Their own.

Sometimes a person feels like becoming a Christian can Cause problems that didn't exist before. That's true at times -- but would that person Rather continue in their former life and end up in hell? or follow Jesus Christ .......make needed Holy Spirit led adjustments and be able to spend eternity in heaven.


The man or woman who gets saved and the other doesn't -- and choses to marry and stay with that person as their spouse because they truly love the other person , has an opportunity to live Christianity in front of their spouse. Be the most loving spouse they can and , hopefully, their life will lead their spouse to the Lord. We've seen That happen.

We've Also seen where a woman was advised to leave her alcoholic husband but she felt led to stay With him. One night he murdered her while he was drunk. The pastor went to see him in jail -- when the husband got sober -- he realized what he'd done and felt Horrible. He'd really loved her, but had gotten out of control. He accepted Christ as his Savior -- and his consolation was realizing that he'd have all eternity to be with her in heaven. And, in the meantime, he started Bible studies with the other inmates while he lived out the rest of his life in prison.

crochet1949 wrote:Sometimes a person feels like becoming a Christian can Cause problems that didn't exist before. That's true at times -- but would that person Rather continue in their former life and end up in hell? or follow Jesus Christ .......make needed Holy Spirit led adjustments and be able to spend eternity in heaven.

I don't want to pick, but I'm going to pick anyway. This is why I keep saying this is about church discipline. This is NOT about salvation, and woh to any of us who suggest it is (starting with me!). I don't know how you intended the part I underlined, but we should not use this kind of language. The only adjustment we need to make to spend eternity with Christ is to believe that He is the Christ, the Son of God (John 6:47). If people are living in unrepentant sin, the consequence is not that they will go to hell. It is that there fellowship with God in this life and with His body will be harmed. And ask Hana here how very valuable Christian fellowship is!

This isn't a matter of keeping the rules to stay in the club. It's about living according to God's design so that you dont harm yourself or those around you. Sin, remember, has consequences to those we love the most. Look at the story you told. The guy decided to leave his wife, and what did that do to her and the kids? If he would have "made the adjustments," it's not about him going to heaven . . . it's about having a better relationship with his wife, children, and ultiamtely, having a more effective body of Christ. The body of Christ cannot function effectively where holiness (which is nothing more than living in accordance with God's plan) is not promoted and sought fervantly.

So -- what did I mean by 'make needed Holy Spirit led adjustments........" Okay I'll rephrase -- 'or follow Jesus Christ and be able to spend eternity in heaven and make adjustments in their lives as the Holy Spirit leads them."

There is a place For church discipline -- it's hardly ever practiced these days. It's for believers who are obviously living in ways that Scripture teaches against. They are to be approached privately first by someone who really cares about them and wants to let them know, lovingly, that certain of their actions are questionable to their testimony as a believer. If the person won't listen to one person and continues on... then the person should be approached Again but with another person with them. And Then , if the person Still won't listen and it's a situation that affects the church as a body, then bring it before the church --maybe the Board of Deacons. And then the Board would decide what action to take.
But That doesn't happen very often. Chances are that the offending person will be upset and leave and not come back after being approached a first time. And Then, someone should try to approach the person Again and try talking to them. Because the purpose is Not to run the offender Off -- it's to Try to 'bring them back to a more Godly way of living / a better relationship to God.

I was Trying to convey that the Holy Spirit is the convictor of sin and leads us to make needed changes in our lives. As a believer, the Holy Spirit will let me know that it's better to stop 'whatever' -- if I decide to ignore that -- our lives will be affected and our witness for God made ineffective -- more harm than good. God Has been known to take people into eternity 'early'. God's Word warns us of that happening.

That which you are saying --I agree with. And holy living isn't talked about very much. Generally speaking, people don't like the high standards that God's Word teaches. It's more that 'God understands me and knows that I Try but don't do so well sometimes." And That Is true, but Sometimes we want to 'have fun' and don't think that God's Word allows us to have fun. We do a Lot of rationalizing.

Jac3510 wrote: Of course not. If that were the case, then there would be no such thing as fornication, since having sex would just make you married by default. Further, if that were the biblical view, it wouldn't make any sense for Moses to command a man to marry a woman he had defiled. That would be silly to command you to marry someone you were already married to. And further, this is why fornication is such a terrible thing. You are taking something that should only exist in the context of marriage and ripping it out of that context (with pretty big consequences!). No, you marry first and then you consummate the marriage.

Hmm.. I thought that's why there is such a thing as fornication, to show that to be so personal with someone else, is a responsibility on top of a (hopeful) pleasure, programmed into us by Him. Another way to denature one's self would be to do what that man did Moses told to marry. Do you think the man defiled her because it was selfish gain or because he wasn't married yet? I'd hope his treatment of her as a human would change, but how would it if there was just the 'penalty' of marriage?

And Paul, Paul makes it very clear that he is not saying not to associate with unbelievers who are sinners but not to associate with professing believers who are living in open sin. Moreover, the next letter in which he refers to the pain he caused them is far from an apology. He's saying the tone was necessary and ultimately successful because it produced repentance.

What about closed sin? What about a sin that seems to not go away and He's not taking away but you're always repentant and not giving up?

There's nobody more grace-oriented than me. I, then, implore those interested in God's grace not to pollute it by suggesting that it means that Christ's body need not be holy, that churches can or ought to tolerate sin in the body. The Bible everywhere, both OT and NT, speaks against such an attitude. That is an attitude that destroys churches.

I believe any form of leader has a higher responsibility to show a Christly life. The details? Well, that's getting into an area that's not my playground and don't feel the need to get into.

Shoestring Tie-er
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8uYbe1VGOE