Evidence for God from Science

Ken: And throughout history, that sense of what is right or wrong has always been in a constant state of change, and if the past is any indication of the future, this sense of right and wrong will continue to change. Do you agree? Or do I need to provide examples to make my point.

And, THAT, Kenny, is also precisely what Romans says - people changed the truth of God for lies, and made all kinds of false gods and pagan religious practices, and deviated from their innate morality that their conscience makes them aware of. And because ALL men are created for worship of God, when men remove the rightful focus of worshiping Him, they will substitute all manner of things and pagan practices for that. But the fact remains, there is a basic sense of morality that most of mankind agrees upon. One two year old will smack another one with a plastic bat, and the injured kid will not only react in pain, but also in emotional hurt and anger - as in, "I've been wronged by that brat with the bat!" Moreover, "Little Babe Ruth" will run and hide, AS IF he KNOWS he has done something wrong and has a sense of guilt over. So, yes there are deviations in many areas, but most basic human perceptions of right and wrong are little changed.

So, per Romans, God has ALREADY reached all men, since the beginning, with basic understandings as to His existence, His benevolence of provision, and by instilling within all a basic sense of right and wrong - you might call that one's conscience. But people can, do, and have often rejected all of that - they thus are denying God's existence, rejecting Him and replacing Him as their rightful focus and attention with all manner of things and religion, and they show no gratefulness for those things. So, by these REACTIONS, we know that there is something, or rather SOMEONE, that mankind is reacting to and rejecting. Why all the religion and religious practices? Why all the superstition? Look at all the evil such deviations from innate morality, and the immense suffering and violence that has caused mankind - to everyone who doesn't believe as they do.

Kenny wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:There is the message of "righteouness" ( for lack of a better word), of doing what is right and the Gospel, which is a message of salvation.
Throughout history, we see evidence of the message of "what is right", natural law if you will.
That innate sense of "fair" or sense of doing "good" and while it can be perverted and made subjective, all humans have always had ( barring developmental issues) an innate sense that there is a right and wrong.

And throughout history, that sense of what is right or wrong has always been in a constant state of change, and if the past is any indication of the future, this sense of right and wrong will continue to change. Do you agree? Or do I need to provide examples to make my point.

Ken

Ken, you are confusing, again, what IS right and wrong with there being a right and wrong.
Again, and we talked about this, there can be no subjective ( what is) without objective ( that there is).

Kenny wrote:....This entire thread has never been about what I believe, I'm trying to find out what YOU believe. How do you suppose God got his message to this 14th century West African?

Ken

We all explained it very well, so we answered your question thoroughly.

Romans 1:20 explains it very well

From Jamieson Fausset Brown commentary on Romans 1:20

For the invisible things of him from — or “since”

the creation of the world are clearly seen — the mind brightly beholding what the eye cannot discern.
being understood by the things that are made — Thus, the outward creation is not the parent but the interpreter of our faith in God. That faith has its primary sources within our own breast (Rom 1:19); but it becomes an intelligible and articulate conviction only through what we observe around us (“by the things which are made,” Rom_1:20). And thus are the inner and the outer revelation of God the complement of each other, making up between them one universal and immovable conviction that God is. (With this striking apostolic statement agree the latest conclusions of the most profound speculative students of Theism).

..even his eternal power and Godhead — both that there is an Eternal Power, and that this is not a mere blind force, or pantheistic “spirit of nature,” but the power of a living Godhead.

...so that they are without excuse — all their degeneracy being a voluntary departure from truth thus brightly revealed to the unsophisticated spirit.

Utely's Bible study Commentary on Rom 1:20 This verse mentions three aspects of God.

1. His invisible attributes (His character, cf. Col 1:15; 1Ti 1:17; Heb 11:27)
2. His eternal power (seen in natural creation, cf. Psa 19:1-6)
3. His divine nature (seen in His acts and motives of creation, cf. Genesis 1-2)

▣ "for since the creation of the world" The preposition apo is used in a temporal sense. A similar phrase is found in Mar 10:6; Mar 13:19; 2Pe 3:4. The invisible God is now seen in
1. physical creation (this verse)
2. Scripture (Psalms 19, 119)
3. ultimately in Jesus (cf. John 14:9)

▣ "divine nature" From Greek literature theiotçs could be translated "divine majesty." This is seen supremely in Jesus. He uniquely bears the divine image (cf. 2Co 4:4; Heb 1:3). He is God's full revelation in human form (Col 1:19; Col 2:9). The wonderful truth of the gospel is that fallen mankind, through faith in Christ, will share Christlikeness (cf. Heb 12:10; 1John3:2). The image of God in humanity (cf. Gen 1:26-27) has been restored (theios, cf. 2Pe 1:3-4)!

NASB "have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made"
NKJV "are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made"
NRSV "have been understood and seen through the things he has made"
TEV "have been clearly seen; they are perceived in the things that God has made"
NJB "have been clearly seen by the mind's understanding of created things"

The combination of noeô (cf. Mat 15:17) and kathoraô (both present passive) implies a true perception. God has written two books: (1) nature (cf. Psa 19:1-6) and (2) Scripture (cf. Psa 19:7-14). They are both capable of human understanding and demand a response (cf. Wisdom13:1-9).

▣ "so that they are without excuse" This is literally "no legal defense." This Greek term (a plus apologeomai) is used only here and in Rom 2:1 in the NT. Remember the theological purpose of Rom 1:18 to Rom 3:20 is to show the spiritual lostness of all mankind. Humans are responsible for the knowledge they do have. God holds humans responsible only for that which they know or could know (cf. Rom 4:15; Rom 5:13).

Rom 1:21 "for even though they knew God" Humans are not progressing religiously-they are progressively evil. Since Genesis 3 humanity has been going downhill. The darkness is increasing!

Sermon Bible Commentary on Romans 1:18-32 reads:

The Natural History of Paganism.

I. St. Paul’s first proposition is, that from the first the heathen knew enough of God from His works to render them without excuse for not worshipping Him.

II. Secondly, the Apostle declares that the heathen have culpably repressed and hindered from its just influence the truth which they did know respecting God. He traces polytheistic and idolatrous worship to its root.

(1) Its first origin he finds in a refusal to walk honestly by such light as nature afforded. For this primary step in the very old and very fatal path of religious declension men could excuse themselves under no plea of ignorance.

(2) The next step followed surely. That truth about God’s real nature and properties, which men would not strive fairly to express in their worship, became obscured. Vanity and errors entered into human reasonings on religion. "Men became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened."

(3) The third step downward was practical folly in religion. Nature worship involved symbol worship. Symbol worship rapidly degenerated into sheer idol worship.

III. It is in this deplorable and criminal perversion of the truth, this religious apostasy, that Paul finds a key to the personal and social vices of heathendom. When the human heart shut out the self-manifestation of the true God, refused to know Him, and worshipped base creatures in His room, it cut itself off by its own act from the source of moral light and moral strength.

A bad and false religion must breed a bad and false character. It ought never to be forgotten that heathenism is not simply a misfortune in the world for which the bulk of men are to be pitied but not blamed.

It is a crime—a huge, next to world-wide, age-long crime, with its roots in a deep hatred of God, and bearing a prolific crop of utterly inexcusable and hideous vices. To prove this is the end for which the passage is introduced by St. Paul.

J. Oswald [lesbians], The Gospel according to St. Paul, p. 25.

Again Jeremiah puts it this way:

Jer 17:13 O LORD, the hope of Israel, All who forsake You will be put to shame. Those who turn away on earth will be written down, Because they have forsaken the fountain of living water, even the LORD.
Jer 17:14 Heal me, O LORD, and I will be healed; Save me and I will be saved, For You are my praise.
Jer 17:15 Look, they keep saying to me, "Where is the word of the LORD? Let it come now!" NASB

So the question comes, how have mistreated the light God has given you, Ken?

I had to come to terms with that long ago and saw my real self in a unique manner of dying and being allowed to come back. What I learned strongly verified in the bible in Matthew chapters 27, 28, Mark chapter 15, Luke chapters 22-23, and John chapters 18-19.

I vicariously put Jesus upon that cross as revealed by how I governed my life and did those same things to Him evidenced by my actions and thoughts towards others and God himself. I came to realize that Jesus came to save those not worthy to be saved and proved His Love true by allowing me to choose life over death.

I chose His life in exchange for mine and I found out what it means to be truly Born Again by God's Spirit while sitting in an old bean bag chair inside an un-air-condition duplex house in the Hot Arizona Heat looking up at the ceiling and crying out to God, " I never want to go back to that awful place, I am yours Lord Jesus..."

All I can say is a profound change came over me and it felt to me at the time like a cool breeze entering inside me and all around me sealing me as his own to be changed in this life out of the darkness that enslaved and deceived me think such darkness was freedom. His life has never left me and Jesus desires to freely give the same life to you... don't be like those who did not.

It is that easy, Ken to become his own however and whenever you cry out to Jesus... I am yours Lord Jesus...

Blessings
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Philip wrote:

Ken: And throughout history, that sense of what is right or wrong has always been in a constant state of change, and if the past is any indication of the future, this sense of right and wrong will continue to change. Do you agree? Or do I need to provide examples to make my point.

And, THAT, Kenny, is also precisely what Romans says - people changed the truth of God for lies, and made all kinds of false gods and pagan religious practices, and deviated from their innate morality that their conscience makes them aware of. And because ALL men are created for worship of God, when men remove the rightful focus of worshiping Him, they will substitute all manner of things and pagan practices for that. But the fact remains, there is a basic sense of morality that most of mankind agrees upon. One two year old will smack another one with a plastic bat, and the injured kid will not only react in pain, but also in emotional hurt and anger - as in, "I've been wronged by that brat with the bat!" Moreover, "Little Babe Ruth" will run and hide, AS IF he KNOWS he has done something wrong and has a sense of guilt over. So, yes there are deviations in many areas, but most basic human perceptions of right and wrong are little changed.

I disagree! Just a few decades ago in many societies of the USA, if your skin was the right color, you could hit another person with a bat (as long as his skin was the wrong color) and the victim would know better than to vent anger, and the “Babe Ruth” would not run, hide, or feel he did any guilt, because the society he was raised in said such behavior was okay simply because of who he was and what his victim was.
The basic human perceptions of right and wrong have changed more than you think.


Ken

PaulSacramento wrote:

Kenny wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:There is the message of "righteouness" ( for lack of a better word), of doing what is right and the Gospel, which is a message of salvation.
Throughout history, we see evidence of the message of "what is right", natural law if you will.
That innate sense of "fair" or sense of doing "good" and while it can be perverted and made subjective, all humans have always had ( barring developmental issues) an innate sense that there is a right and wrong.

And throughout history, that sense of what is right or wrong has always been in a constant state of change, and if the past is any indication of the future, this sense of right and wrong will continue to change. Do you agree? Or do I need to provide examples to make my point.

Ken

Ken, you are confusing, again, what IS right and wrong with there being a right and wrong.
Again, and we talked about this, there can be no subjective ( what is) without objective ( that there is).

No, I’m simply pointing out the fact that what is called right or wrong has been in a constant state of change through out history, and will continue into the future.

Ken

Kenny wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

Kenny wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:There is the message of "righteouness" ( for lack of a better word), of doing what is right and the Gospel, which is a message of salvation.
Throughout history, we see evidence of the message of "what is right", natural law if you will.
That innate sense of "fair" or sense of doing "good" and while it can be perverted and made subjective, all humans have always had ( barring developmental issues) an innate sense that there is a right and wrong.

And throughout history, that sense of what is right or wrong has always been in a constant state of change, and if the past is any indication of the future, this sense of right and wrong will continue to change. Do you agree? Or do I need to provide examples to make my point.

Ken

Ken, you are confusing, again, what IS right and wrong with there being a right and wrong.
Again, and we talked about this, there can be no subjective ( what is) without objective ( that there is).

No, I’m simply pointing out the fact that what is called right or wrong has been in a constant state of change through out history, and will continue into the future.

Ken

It seems to me you're saying because people sin and have done evil in our world what is right and wrong has changed.It has never changed and will not change in the future just because man sins and does evil.Despite evil what is right and wrong never changes.

abelcainsbrother wrote:

Kenny wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

Kenny wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:There is the message of "righteouness" ( for lack of a better word), of doing what is right and the Gospel, which is a message of salvation.
Throughout history, we see evidence of the message of "what is right", natural law if you will.
That innate sense of "fair" or sense of doing "good" and while it can be perverted and made subjective, all humans have always had ( barring developmental issues) an innate sense that there is a right and wrong.

And throughout history, that sense of what is right or wrong has always been in a constant state of change, and if the past is any indication of the future, this sense of right and wrong will continue to change. Do you agree? Or do I need to provide examples to make my point.

Ken

Ken, you are confusing, again, what IS right and wrong with there being a right and wrong.
Again, and we talked about this, there can be no subjective ( what is) without objective ( that there is).

No, I’m simply pointing out the fact that what is called right or wrong has been in a constant state of change through out history, and will continue into the future.

Ken

It seems to me you're saying because people sin and have done evil in our world what is right and wrong has changed.It has never changed and will not change in the future just because man sins and does evil.Despite evil what is right and wrong never changes.

Are you kidding me??? Why don't you go back and read what I actually said, and respond to that, instead of this other stuff you talking about.

Ken

Ken -- everything that has been shared has been in response to your comment / question. Everyone has a built-in plumb-line. Why does 'society' get upset with stealing, lying, killing, spreading false rumors about someone, etc. Why is there a controversy about selectivity of marriage partners? Why does it Matter? Isn't it because there is an 'in-born' innate sense of right and wrong? Those who own a car -- why are we upset if someone steals it or vandalizes it? Those who are married -- why would we be upset if our spouse got romantically involved with a neighbor or friend of ours.

What society Tries to do is justify reasons to ignore God's Word // morality / ethics guidelines. Things that God says are an abomination to Him. Why would we want to purposely do things that God Hates. Supposedly society has evolved / developed Beyond our need for God. We have all the intelligence of science / technowledgy that 'man' has developed. So - supposedly we don't Need God.

Somehow -- people who have been So Good way back in history Should be allowed to go to heaven even though God's Word says that Every person has sinned and falls short of God's glory. "Ephesians 2:8-9 says that for by Grace you are saved through faith -- Not Of Works -- so that no one would have a basis for boasting that 'I joined the church -- or I've given so much money to the church -- or I've been baptized -- so I Deserve to get into heaven.'.

The human mind has come up with some horrible ways of acting / treating one another -- and given time -- will no doubt find new ways to break laws --- but God is the Final judge. He knows who has accepted His one and only way to gain heaven. And when That time comes -- there will be No second chance to accept Him.

Right now there is one guest on line who is reading 'this' -- is hearing Maybe for the first time what we've been talking about -- and who knows who That person is sharing This with -- who is accepting or rejecting 'this'. So........

Kenny wrote:...This entire thread has never been about what I believe, I'm trying to find out what YOU believe. How do you suppose God got his message to this 14th century West African?

Ken

We have told you countless times.

However, you desire a concrete answer. Only way for that to happen is to have a time machine. No can do.

Therefore Romans 1:20 answers this... so how would that look like?

The person maybe just participated in attacking another village there acquired a fresh crop of slaves to be sold and he neglected a tinge of conscience that said this was wrong

Maybe he just killed a lion named Cecil...to prove his manhood and somehow avoided realizing how God saved his life and instead sacrificed to the lion gods to say thanks...

Or was out at dawn marveling the wonders of nature and then made idols to worship.

Maybe he saw the stars and heard the rolling thunder but could not make up his mind if there was one or many creators...

Maybe in one of these manners...

Job 33:14 "Indeed God speaks once, Or twice, yet no one notices it.
Job 33:15 "In a dream, a vision of the night, When sound sleep falls on men, While they slumber in their beds,
Job 33:16 Then He opens the ears of men, And seals their instruction,
Job 33:17 That He may turn man aside from his conduct, And keep man from pride;
Job 33:18 He keeps back his soul from the pit, And his life from passing over into Sheol.
Job 33:19 "Man is also chastened with pain on his bed, And with unceasing complaint in his bones;
Job 33:20 So that his life loathes bread, And his soul favorite food.
Job 33:21 "His flesh wastes away from sight, And his bones which were not seen stick out.
Job 33:22 "Then his soul draws near to the pit, And his life to those who bring death.
Job 33:23 "If there is an angel as mediator for him, One out of a thousand, To remind a man what is right for him,
Job 33:24 Then let him be gracious to him, and say, 'Deliver him from going down to the pit, I have found a ransom';
Job 33:25 Let his flesh become fresher than in youth, Let him return to the days of his youthful vigor;
Job 33:26 Then he will pray to God, and He will accept him, That he may see His face with joy, And He may restore His righteousness to man.
Job 33:27 "He will sing to men and say, 'I have sinned and perverted what is right, And it is not proper for me.
Job 33:28 'He has redeemed my soul from going to the pit, And my life shall see the light.'
Job 33:29 "Behold, God does all these oftentimes with men,
Job 33:30 To bring back his soul from the pit, That he may be enlightened with the light of life. NASB

Ken use your intelligence.

God all knowing confronts people in 14 century West Africa in diverse ways to numerous to pin-point. Dreams, illness, life events, sparing from a deadly accident, signs, wonders, sunrise and sunsets. Storms... etc etc, birth of a child, loss of a loved one, etc and etc,

All things in someway point to this, we are not really in complete charge and that points to the one who is, who we neglect to recognize...

However, people invent excuses and create and rationalize these revealings away in many diverse ways and manners.

God offers a choice to all in many ways. Even to those he foreknew will reject him o their own free will. God reveals himself many ways and its on them for rejecting.

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B. W. wrote: Ken use your intelligence.

God all knowing confronts people in 14 century West Africa in diverse ways to numerous to pin-point. Dreams, illness, life events, sparing from a deadly accident, signs, wonders, sunrise and sunsets. Storms... etc etc, birth of a child, loss of a loved one, etc and etc,

All things in someway point to this, we are not really in complete charge and that points to the one who is, who we neglect to recognize...

However, people invent excuses and create and rationalize these revealings away in many diverse ways and manner
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Using the scenario I presented, I don't think he would rationalize these revealing away, he would just attribute them to Amma; the God of his village, the only concept of God he had access to.

Ken

Kenny wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:

Kenny wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

Kenny wrote: And throughout history, that sense of what is right or wrong has always been in a constant state of change, and if the past is any indication of the future, this sense of right and wrong will continue to change. Do you agree? Or do I need to provide examples to make my point.

Ken

Ken, you are confusing, again, what IS right and wrong with there being a right and wrong.
Again, and we talked about this, there can be no subjective ( what is) without objective ( that there is).

No, I’m simply pointing out the fact that what is called right or wrong has been in a constant state of change through out history, and will continue into the future.

Ken

It seems to me you're saying because people sin and have done evil in our world what is right and wrong has changed.It has never changed and will not change in the future just because man sins and does evil.Despite evil what is right and wrong never changes.

Are you kidding me??? Why don't you go back and read what I actually said, and respond to that, instead of this other stuff you talking about.

Ken

It is discouraging trying to talk to someone who takes all, and runs it through a converter,
from where it comes out as something completely different. Then they respond to that,
and you realize they are doing both sides of the convrrsation.

Smart thing, not always observed by me, is to walk away and let them talk to themselves.

Kenny wrote:

B. W. wrote: Ken use your intelligence.

God all knowing confronts people in 14 century West Africa in diverse ways to numerous to pin-point. Dreams, illness, life events, sparing from a deadly accident, signs, wonders, sunrise and sunsets. Storms... etc etc, birth of a child, loss of a loved one, etc and etc,

All things in someway point to this, we are not really in complete charge and that points to the one who is, who we neglect to recognize...

However, people invent excuses and create and rationalize these revealings away in many diverse ways and manner
-

Using the scenario I presented, I don't think he would rationalize these revealing away, he would just attribute them to Amma; the God of his village, the only concept of God he had access to.

Ken

Thus Romans 1:219-23 is true... which answers your question, Kenny, to the tee...

Rom 1:19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
Rom 1:21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. NASB
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Audie wrote:It is discouraging trying to talk to someone who takes all, and runs it through a converter,
from where it comes out as something completely different. Then they respond to that,
and you realize they are doing both sides of the convrrsation.

Smart thing, not always observed by me, is to walk away and let them talk to themselves.

Audie, Ken asked a question, and stated that he wanted to know our stance. We gave him our stance and answered his question thoroughly.

He will not accept our answers, plain and simple no matter what we say or use to prove it.

Only answer he will accept is the one he already has in his mind but that is unknown to us.

How does Romans 1:19-23, Job 33:13-40, John 3:19-21 not answer Ken's question?

Rom 1:19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
Rom 1:21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

Job 33:14 "Indeed God speaks once, Or twice, yet no one notices it.
Job 33:15 "In a dream, a vision of the night, When sound sleep falls on men, While they slumber in their beds,
Job 33:16 Then He opens the ears of men, And seals their instruction,
Job 33:17 That He may turn man aside from his conduct, And keep man from pride;
Job 33:18 He keeps back his soul from the pit, And his life from passing over into Sheol.
Job 33:19 "Man is also chastened with pain on his bed, And with unceasing complaint in his bones;
Job 33:20 So that his life loathes bread, And his soul favorite food.
Job 33:21 "His flesh wastes away from sight, And his bones which were not seen stick out.
Job 33:22 "Then his soul draws near to the pit, And his life to those who bring death.
Job 33:23 "If there is an angel as mediator for him, One out of a thousand, To remind a man what is right for him,
Job 33:24 Then let him be gracious to him, and say, 'Deliver him from going down to the pit, I have found a ransom';
Job 33:25 Let his flesh become fresher than in youth, Let him return to the days of his youthful vigor;
Job 33:26 Then he will pray to God, and He will accept him, That he may see His face with joy, And He may restore His righteousness to man.
Job 33:27 "He will sing to men and say, 'I have sinned and perverted what is right, And it is not proper for me.
Job 33:28 'He has redeemed my soul from going to the pit, And my life shall see the light.'
Job 33:29 "Behold, God does all these oftentimes with men,
Job 33:30 To bring back his soul from the pit, That he may be enlightened with the light of life. NASB

John 3:19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
John 3:20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
John 3:21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God." NASB

Turning too another god or gods, or idols, or atheism, or some philosophic notion can not at all bring one back into a right relationship with God that restores any person back into favor and right relationship with God. Why, because these prove one does not trust God at all, but rather themselves, which is merely hubris kind of pride.

Christians call this the sin nature - or that twist away from God nature that human beings all have and why Jesus came to cure this so our faith, trust, can be reset back to the one and only God there is.

That is why it is by faith in God's act of grace alone is how one returns to God because we can't make ourselves right no matter how hard one tries, humanity need's help.

That help comes to humanity in the form of a simple choice God sets before all people everywhere. How will they all respond is how they respond which reveals what one's faith is set in stone in.

The human condition is such that it wants to create its own ways and deny the choice offered by God's grace by simple faith that He is...

Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. NASB

What I have discovered that as I once despised people who used the bible to back their answers is the same Ken has today.

I am not sure that you have that view, Audie, as you appear more reasonable to reason, which by the way is a compliment.

Nothing has changed: way back when Jesus was put on show trial and had false witnesses pitted against him, the same goes today...which again proves the verses cited from Job, Romans and the book of John are true.
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B. W. wrote:

Kenny wrote:

B. W. wrote: Ken use your intelligence.

God all knowing confronts people in 14 century West Africa in diverse ways to numerous to pin-point. Dreams, illness, life events, sparing from a deadly accident, signs, wonders, sunrise and sunsets. Storms... etc etc, birth of a child, loss of a loved one, etc and etc,

All things in someway point to this, we are not really in complete charge and that points to the one who is, who we neglect to recognize...

However, people invent excuses and create and rationalize these revealings away in many diverse ways and manner
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Using the scenario I presented, I don't think he would rationalize these revealing away, he would just attribute them to Amma; the God of his village, the only concept of God he had access to.

Ken

Thus Romans 1:219-23 is true... which answers your question, Kenny, to the tee...

Rom 1:19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
Rom 1:21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. NASB
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So if I understand you correctly, using the scenario I presented, this 14th century west African would attribute the Sun rising/Sun sets, Storms, the birth of a child, and all the other wonders of life to the God of the bible whom he never heard of rather than Amma; the God of his village; the only deity he has ever known.
If this is your position; thanks for answering my question.

Ken

Kenny wrote:So if I understand you correctly, using the scenario I presented, this 14th century west African would attribute the Sun rising/Sun sets, Storms, the birth of a child, and all the other wonders of life to the God of the bible whom he never heard of rather than Amma; the God of his village; the only deity he has ever known.
If this is your position; thanks for answering my question.

Ken

Thank you for listening and have a great day, Ken!

However, such a person would not in the least attribute these to God the bible reveals but rather instead makes up his own ideas for the reasons mentioned above to Audie...

That is the difference...
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