"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands." (Psalm 19:1)
https://discussions.godandscience.org/
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Wed Oct 26, 2016 6:42 am The Atheistic view of the universe is that it started from a singularity, not from nothing.
No one knows Why the singularity started to expand or where the singularity came from.
True; many believers perceive God as always existing. But it doesn’t have to be God that has always existed, many non believers believe energy has always existed. Such ideas are even supported by the law of “Conservation of Energy”Kurieuo wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:20 pm If something exists, something's always existed. God by definition is said to be that "something" possessing aseity (self-existence). To to ask the question what existed before the something that self-exists is nonsense and shows misunderstanding. And, if one says it is illogical to believe something has always existed in and if itself, they must first deny anything exists.
Many non-believers do believe energy has always existed, but is it nonetheless contingent i.e., does energy self-exist or depend upon something other for its existence? Self-existence is a different quality from eternality. Something can be eternal but not self-exist, whereas what we'd like to know is what/who has always existed and only depends upon itself.Kenny wrote: ↑Tue May 01, 2018 7:42 pmTrue; many believers perceive God as always existing. But it doesn’t have to be God that has always existed, many non believers believe energy has always existed. Such ideas are even supported by the law of “Conservation of Energy”Kurieuo wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:20 pm If something exists, something's always existed. God by definition is said to be that "something" possessing aseity (self-existence). To to ask the question what existed before the something that self-exists is nonsense and shows misunderstanding. And, if one says it is illogical to believe something has always existed in and if itself, they must first deny anything exists.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy
Why does it matter if it is self existent? If A, B, & C always existed, but A’s existence depends on B&C, and B’s existence depends on A&C, and C’s existence depends on A&B, why isn’t that good enough? Why must something be self existing and depending upon nothing else?Kurieuo wrote: ↑Fri May 04, 2018 8:56 pmMany non-believers do believe energy has always existed, but is it nonetheless contingent i.e., does energy self-exist or depend upon something other for its existence? Self-existence is a different quality from eternality. Something can be eternal but not self-exist, whereas what we'd like to know is what/who has always existed and only depends upon itself.Kenny wrote: ↑Tue May 01, 2018 7:42 pmTrue; many believers perceive God as always existing. But it doesn’t have to be God that has always existed, many non believers believe energy has always existed. Such ideas are even supported by the law of “Conservation of Energy”Kurieuo wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:20 pm If something exists, something's always existed. God by definition is said to be that "something" possessing aseity (self-existence). To to ask the question what existed before the something that self-exists is nonsense and shows misunderstanding. And, if one says it is illogical to believe something has always existed in and if itself, they must first deny anything exists.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy
I’m not getting this. If we use the scenario I mentioned earlier with multiple things having always existed, each dependent on the other; why is this impossible?Kurieuo wrote: ↑Sun May 06, 2018 1:27 am Why does it matter (pun)? Same reason it matters if something came later in time. If energy isn't self-existing then there is something more foundational than it, which moves it, gives it form as this energy or that, and hence matter itself. Ergo Materialism is falsified.
What are these multiple things, or "emsemble" perhaps that has always existed?Kenny wrote: ↑Sun May 06, 2018 7:47 pmI’m not getting this. If we use the scenario I mentioned earlier with multiple things having always existed, each dependent on the other; why is this impossible?Kurieuo wrote: ↑Sun May 06, 2018 1:27 am Why does it matter (pun)? Same reason it matters if something came later in time. If energy isn't self-existing then there is something more foundational than it, which moves it, gives it form as this energy or that, and hence matter itself. Ergo Materialism is falsified.
You are asking a lot of questions I don’t have answers to; there is much about the Universe that not even the most brilliant of scientists don’t know about. My point is, the idea that something has always existed makes sense to me.Kurieuo wrote: ↑Mon May 07, 2018 1:10 amWhat are these multiple things, or "emsemble" perhaps that has always existed?Kenny wrote: ↑Sun May 06, 2018 7:47 pmI’m not getting this. If we use the scenario I mentioned earlier with multiple things having always existed, each dependent on the other; why is this impossible?Kurieuo wrote: ↑Sun May 06, 2018 1:27 am Why does it matter (pun)? Same reason it matters if something came later in time. If energy isn't self-existing then there is something more foundational than it, which moves it, gives it form as this energy or that, and hence matter itself. Ergo Materialism is falsified.
You were saying "energy" just previous, like this is foundational to everything else. Well, what are the constituents of energy? When energy moves this way and that, what is doing the moving? Furthermore, everything within this ensemble must always exist, none can not exist and come into existence later. Otherwise the ensemble falls apart (similar logic here applies to Trinitiarian theology and understanding God).