Evidence for God from Science

Audacity wrote:

Storyteller wrote:So what, abortion isn't cruel because it's our decision and not Gods?

*Sigh* For some pregnant people no doubt it is, but whether it is or not doesn't absolve god of the cruelty he inflicts on expectant parents.

Why sigh?
I would rather lose my baby to God than to murder it.
Tell me then, if it's cruel of God, why is it not so for us?
And so far, the only person who thinks God is cruel is you. Death is cruel, sure, but we all die. Difference is, tis God Himself deciding or us. I know who I trust.

Story: And so far, the only person who thinks God is cruel is you. Death is cruel, sure, but we all die. Difference is, tis God Himself deciding or us. I know who I trust.

Again, the very moment ANY mortal steps from this reality into God's loving and peaceful realm, will be the best day one could ever hope for - whether an unborn person, from an illness, from tragedy, or a 100-year-old dying peacefully in his sleep. Such a "cruelty" is the day all Christians have faith in. Such a moment is the antithesis of the very meaning of the word "cruel!"

Only one with a finite, uncertain and hopeless worldview would consider a moment one goes to Heaven as being a cruel thing.

PaulSacramento wrote:

Audacity wrote:

Philip wrote:So, Audacity, WHAT is your point???!!! What has THAT got to do with intentional abortion?

That abortion isn't the only process that's taking potential lives. God seems to be letting fetuses develop for 20-28 weeks before killing them off, yet I don't hear anyone condemning him for it. In his infinite knowledge (omniscience) why isn't he killing the embryo in its first moments of formation? Surely he knows it isn't destined for birth.

.

And here I thought that no one with actual brain cells ever pulls this stupid argument out of their ***.

Guess I was wrong.

You do know the difference between emotional arguments and logical ones, right?
If not, you shouldn't be here.

"Emotional argument"? I'm doubting you know what an emotional argument is, but in any case, show us were my logic fails.

FIVE GIVENS
1) God is omniscient
2) God is omnipotent
3) Deliberately bringing unwarranted disappointment, heartbreak and tears is cruel
4) Many people hope and pray their pregnancy will go full term and end in a happy and healthy birth.
5) Stillbirths are those occurring between the 20th and 27th weeks

EXTRAPOLATIONS
6) From 1. God knows a particular fetus will never reach full term and be born
7) From 2. God can prevent such an event by ending its life at conception.
8 ) From 4. If this does not happen the participating people will be exceptionally disappointed, even to the point of heartbreak and tears.
9) From 5. Stillbirths happen and do bring disappointment, even to the point of heartbreak and tears.
10) From 6. God knows a particular fetus will never be born, but lets it develop until the 20th -27th week anyway.
11) From 7. God chooses not to prevent such an event, thus bringing about 8. people will be exceptionally disappointed, even to the point of heartbreak and tears.
12) From 11. and 3. God is cruel

QUESTION
13) Why does god deliberately bring disappointment, heartbreak and tears to people by letting a "baby" end up as a stillbirth, RATHER than killing the embryo at the outset of pregnancy?

Storyteller wrote:

Audacity wrote:

Storyteller wrote:So what, abortion isn't cruel because it's our decision and not Gods?

*Sigh* For some pregnant people no doubt it is, but whether it is or not doesn't absolve god of the cruelty he inflicts on expectant parents.

Why sigh?

Because it assumes something that's never even been hinted at.

Philip wrote:

Story: And so far, the only person who thinks God is cruel is you. Death is cruel, sure, but we all die. Difference is, tis God Himself deciding or us. I know who I trust.

Again, the very moment ANY mortal steps from this reality into God's loving and peaceful realm, will be the best day one could ever hope for - whether an unborn person, from an illness, from tragedy, or a 100-year-old dying peacefully in his sleep. Such a "cruelty" is the day all Christians have faith in. Such a moment is the antithesis of the very meaning of the word "cruel!"

Only one with a finite, uncertain and hopeless worldview would consider a moment one goes to Heaven as being a cruel thing.

But if you don't have God, death can be seen as cruel and I don't think Audacity believes in God. Actually, that's a point...
How can it be down to God if he doesn't exist? Tis a pointless argument from Audacity.

Audacity, you say God allowing stillbirths is cruel yet you don't believe in God.
You support abortion (?) how do you justify it? If you can justify abortion then you have allow God that justification too.

PaulSacramento wrote:

Audacity wrote:

Storyteller wrote:So what, abortion isn't cruel because it's our decision and not Gods?

*Sigh* For some pregnant people no doubt it is, but whether it is or not doesn't absolve god of the cruelty he inflicts on expectant parents.

Do you believe in God?

I'm an agnostic.

In answer to your question...
Personally, I thank him for my miscarraiges. Life is full of heartbreak. I begged him to save my third baby, a girl, literally on my knees. He knew I wasnt ready, if my babies died at conception, I wouldnt have known them, loved them.
It is not better that they died at conception, Im glad I was pregnant, every time.

Story: It is not better that they died at conception, Im glad I was pregnant, every time.

Because THEY ultimately didn't DIE - only their tiny bodies did. Story WILL see them someday - what a thought, eh? I've got one there, too. I've got a sibling I've never me that is there. Who loved them more that God? Me? My wife? My mom? Dad? NO one!

Audacity wrote:

Storyteller wrote:So what, abortion isn't cruel because it's our decision and not Gods?

*Sigh* For some pregnant people no doubt it is, but whether it is or not doesn't absolve god of the cruelty he inflicts on expectant parents.

Your complaint isn't about wrongness/rightness of abortion, but clearly trying to cause distraction with your anti-God questions. Perhaps you should be looking into various theodicies. Yet, the question of pain and suffering wasn't what the opening post was about. You're just using the topic to try drive a knife into Christian beliefs, once again, playing the same drum beat, and that's quite tiring Audacity.

In any case, God doesn't inflict cruelty, rather there are physical laws that are upheld regardless of our choices. A doctor inflicts cruelty when he suctions a baby out of its womb, a man inflicts cruelty when he hits a pregnant woman in the stomach causing a miscarriage, a woman inflicts cruelty when constantly drinking and taking drugs during her pregnancy. Sometimes, for whatever physical reason, babies do not develop as they should and therefore die in utero. There are many factors that can contribute to such, and I doubt we know them all. Which is why woman are advised to refrain from a lot of things during pregnancy.

I will say however, that you inflict cruelty in going there, I see it like a low blow in order to get your rocks off on taking some snipes at Christians here and God, once again. Knowing very well in previous exchanges you've participated in that some women here have suffered such.

Kurieuo wrote:

Audacity wrote:

Storyteller wrote:So what, abortion isn't cruel because it's our decision and not Gods?

*Sigh* For some pregnant people no doubt it is, but whether it is or not doesn't absolve god of the cruelty he inflicts on expectant parents.

Your complaint isn't about wrongness/rightness of abortion,

Of course my complaint isn't about the wrongness/rightness of abortion. That should be quite obvious, because as I said in my very first post:

"According to the National Institute of Health, each year in the United States
about 25,000 babies, or 68 babies every day, are born still. "

which I followed up in my second post

"That abortion isn't the only process that's taking potential lives. God seems to be letting fetuses develop for 20-28 weeks before killing them off, yet I don't hear anyone condemning him for it. In his infinite knowledge (omniscience) why isn't he killing the embryo in its first moments of formation? Surely he knows it isn't destined for birth."

but clearly trying to cause distraction with your anti-God questions.

Distraction from what? All Philip said in his OP was, "A beautiful lady, right? She almost wasn't! We were all once a fetus, but ALWAYS human!"
She's an attractive woman. Okay! She almost wasn't. Okay! We were all once a fetus, but always human. Okay! What else is there to say? It's like saying "I live on a paved street" Okay, but so what? I just made the thread into something to talk about. Evidently it's something you don't like to talk about, which is fine. Don't feel obligated to do so on my account.

Perhaps you should be looking into various theodicies.

Gotta have a reason, bro.

Yet, the question of pain and suffering wasn't what the opening post was about.

Hey, there wasn't any question at all. Although from a discussion standpoint it might have been helpful to have a question to get things rolling.

You're just using the topic to try drive a knife into Christian beliefs.

Actually, I'm not. In light of the uninspiring nature of the OP I took the opportunity to address the abortion issue by trying to get anti-abortionists to see that abortion has a very real parallel in what god does, and reconsider their attitude toward those participating in abortion. Now, if Christians can't stand what god does and insist on not hearing about it then I only have sympathy for their lack of fortitude, and their fragile faith.

In any case, God doesn't inflict cruelty, rather there are physical laws that are upheld regardless of our choices. A doctor inflicts cruelty when he suctions a baby out of its womb, a man inflicts cruelty when he hits a pregnant woman in the stomach causing a miscarriage, a woman inflicts cruelty when constantly drinking and taking drugs during her pregnancy. Sometimes, for whatever physical reason, babies do not develop as they should and therefore die in utero. There are many factors that can contribute to such, and I doubt we know them all. Which is why woman are advised to refrain from a lot of things during pregnancy.

*Sigh*

I will say however, that you inflict cruelty in going there, I see it like a low blow in order to get your rocks off on taking some snipes at Christians here and God, once again.

Of course you do. Attack the messenger and not the message. How about addressing the point I raised rather than why you think I raised it? Talk to me about my responses without resorting to irrelevancies and going off into side issues. And if you can't then just leave it to others to carry on.

Knowing very well in previous exchanges you've participated in that some women here have suffered such.

Those women who have suffered because of having had an abortion have my unqualified sympathies. AS DO those who have gone through 20 + weeks of a pregnancy filled with joyful expectations only to deliver a stillborn baby.

Audacity,
once you understand the fall of man, free will, you may have more insights into your own questions.

Even before I was a Christian I never blamed God for me losing my babies, these things, as heartbreaking as they are, do happen. They are outside of our control whereas abortion is fully within our control.
Why does God allow stillbirths rather than killing the baby at conception? I don't know, why do people abort babies rather than not get pregnant?
Over here, there was an 11 year old girl raped and abused by a paedophille gang, she fell pregnant, endured months of her peers and adults judging her, calling her a slag and the like. She credits her baby with saving her life, giving her hope, a new life.
As a Christian, I trust God, with my life, and my babies. What gives us as humans the right to end life?

I get where audacity is coming from...
And I will take the principal a step further,
Why is it that Christians argue come hell or high water over abortion and the God given right to life no matter how dire the circumstances but yet have no issue and more over are the greatest political might in regards to the death penalty??
Either God has the right to decide in who dies or lives or He doesn't. By principle we don't get to choose when it suits us.
I am expecting the usual BS deflection but it's intellectually dishonest as far as I'm concerned.
Hypocrisy is unnerving.
What audacity is touching on for him is yet another form hypocrisy. It's a valid point.
Keeping in mind that many women who are faced with abortion do so in the face of medical complications. Not all, or even majority but it happens often.
At my age, in this demographic with embryo screening I personally know of 2 women who were faced with the realisation of their babies having Down syndrome. In fairness I also know women at my age who have had successful pregnancies with healthy gorgeous babies.
In the 2 cases I refer too, one had an abortion and the other miscarried at 14 weeks. As cruel as it sounds the body both human and amongst the animal kingdom will often naturally abort a fetus that is non viable.
We live in a society that when a women presents with abnormal bleeding in pregnancy drugs are given to prevent the body expelling the fetus. Common practice.
As much as mothers would do anything to carry their baby, it flies in the face of the idea of God being the ultimate decision maker.
Medical intervention in what ever means often takes precedence.
To be clear I'm not arguing that abortion is okay more so that when it suits us we make decisions personally and as a society that does not align with the ideal that only God has the right to take life.
I made a choice to abort a child that sadly was growing within my Fallopian tube. It had ruptured and was a life or death situation, I didn't think twice.
The doctors performed an abortion, granted yes it was a life saving scenario as I had internal bleeding but I gave the go ahead.
On the flip side audacity I hold no regrets, nor do I blame or have any negative emotions in regards to the unfairness of life by God's design.
I received no counseling despite the hospitals recommendation or ever needed too.
It just wasn't meant to be.
I'm not afraid to admit that in the face of death, my only option was to abort.
If it was a healthy pregnancy it would be different.
For me.
Choice is a beautiful thing and something we take for granted.
Like you have pointed out audacity so many mothers and fathers are never given that choice and have still borns and ectopic pregnancies as in my case.
A cruel God?
Or just life?
I'm not going to get overly spiritual which is really unlike me but sometimes it happens. Death happens. It is the cycle of life.
The only meaning we can take from it is we die. It may happen in gestation, when we are 5, 15, 45 or 95 but this intended design is fleeting.
Not by error but regardless of belief it's the inevitable outcome.
It's not cruel it's life.
Which brings me to abortion and quite frankly my issues lies with the rights of the mothers. People won't like that but a baby is as secure in life as his/her mother is in gestation. That women is paramount to the survival of her baby. She is vitally important.
Her rights and emotions, desires and fears need to addressed.
She is not an incubator but an often scared, alone and confused individual. Making criminals of women in the most vulnerable of situations is not the answer.
Neither is making abortion illegal, it may address the legality but does nothing to help or protect mother or child.
This is a social issue, it's starts with education and contraception and ends with a social fabric that embraces single mothers and does not ostracize them. They need services and support, readily available.

Who said man is to use the death penalty? GOD!

Genesis 9:6: "“Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image."

God gave the instruction BECAUSE he views human life as something precious, whcih was made "in HIS own image."

Then, concerning the righteousness of the power of the state to use the sword in punishing evil doers, we have Romans 13: 3-4: " 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer."

Above, Paul is saying that those in authority DO dispense justice of the sword AND that authority come from God as HIS "avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer."

To equate abortion with the righteous execution of one who takes what God holds most sacred (human life) is seriously flawed logic.

Read this short articles on the issue, from both an OT, Jesus and NT perspectives:

OT view: http://www.christianheadlines.com/news/ ... 74674.html

NT view (NO different!) http://www.christianheadlines.com/news/ ... 75216.html

Philip please
What is flawed is using the Old Testament to negate the New Testament of Christ. We argue when it's suits us how practices of the Old Testament are NOT permissible under Christ.
Perversion of scripture just isn't cool, as far as I'm concerned.
Neither is religious BS indoctrination.
Christ was clear in His teachings, people can and will perverse as they see fit.
Post a thousand links, it makes NO difference.
Hypocrisy at its finest!!