Did Obama wiretap Trump?

[edwardmurphy]

So what should happen if it turns out that Trump is lying about Obama's birth certificate knowing more about ISIS than the generals the thousands of Muslims in New Jersey cheering on 9/11 Ted Cruz's dad and the Kennedy assassination vaccines causing autism Scalia's "suspicious" death the size of his inauguration crowd the 5 million illegal voters the Obama Administration's wiretap? At what point is enough enough? What will it take for Ryan and McConnell to call the bullpen and get Mike Pence warmed up?

[abelcainsbrother]

So Abe, just for the sake of argument let's assume that you're right (which you're not) and the Birther lie originated with Hillary Clinton. That would make her a cynical, opportunistic, race-baiting scumbag, right? So anyone else who worked to spread that lie for their own advantage would be a cynical, opportunistic, race-baiting scumbag, too, right?

To be honest I never really got into the birther conspiracy however recently newer analysis was done and it blows away the old evidence.This would hold up in a court of law unlike the old birther evidence and so now I'm really believing Obama's birth certificate is a forgery.However I don't think anything is gonna come of it,but it is possible ,it might.But if it is a forgery we should know.If it is not true then yes you'd be right.

[abelcainsbrother]

[quote="edwardmurphy"]So what should happen if it turns out that Trump is lying about Obama's birth certificate knowing more about ISIS than the generals the thousands of Muslims in New Jersey cheering on 9/11 Ted Cruz's dad and the Kennedy assassination vaccines causing autism Scalia's "suspicious" death the size of his inauguration crowd the 5 million illegal voters the Obama Administration's wiretap? At what point is enough enough? What will it take for Ryan and McConnell to call the bullpen and get Mike Pence warmed up?[/quote

Most of that has been debunked and certian ones it depends on who you believe and others will be shown true. It is not Trump's fault Mitch McConnell does not want to investigte vote fraud to expose the vote fraud that we know happens.As a matter of fact you still have election fraud in the Democrat party right now proven by the leaked e-mails of Democrats that Wikileaks revealed and yet you think your vote matters.I don't see how you can ignore these e-mails from Democrats communicating with one another and still choose to be a Democrat.There is massive corruption in the Democrat Party and yet you're nit-picking Trump.

[Kurieuo]

I had already discussed the flaws in the 'forensic analysis' earlier in the thread you linked to...

Short version...
Arpaio could only find two people to support their assertion that it was forged.
Arpaio's assertion is not a concensus opinion among forensic analysts.
9 points of convergence is not unexpected when you have the same document created on the same typewriters within the same time frame
The date stamps were not identical and they were located in different points in the document.

Arpaio didn't try "finding" two people to support, rather sent the documents to two different digital document experts who live on two different continents. According to these experts, the "nine points of forgery" found on Obama's birth certificate, words, letters and numbers, were digitally copied and pasted.

And the fact that there are only two 'experts' in the world who buy into this theory speaks directly to the accuracy of the theory.
If this theory were true, then one would expect a lot more forensic analysts to chime in and corroborate Arpaio's allegations.

We should perhaps let out a whole lot of people from jail, because such is often based upon an expert specialist's forensic analysis. That said, I think you're missing that these were forensic organisations which often involve teams of people.

Since you find these "experts" (you place in inverted commas) dubious, I wonder if you have examined their credentials? Why would they risk their reputation in their field claiming Obama's certificate was a forgery? It doesn't add up. These aren't out to crucify Obama, they're just doing their job.

Still waiting for your own forensic analysts you mention disagreed. I'm open to alternative opinion based upon substance. Knowing what I do about digital images and what-not, the video which provides a copy and paste demonstration, the evidence appears quite damning that the certificate was fabricated.

Why it would be fabricated? Anyone's guess.

Date stamps, what do you mean? When parts of an image are copied and pasted digitally, there is often no date stamp affixed. I'm wondering whether you misunderstand the nature of what is claimed to have happened.

One of the assertions that was made by Arpaio's 'experts' was that the angled date stamps at the bottom of the certificate were part of the content that was allegedly copy/pasted.

The problem with that assertion is that the date stamps on the two documents have different dates and are located in different locations within the box on the documents.

The date stamps are the only content referenced that would not have been typed in.
Points of convergence between typed content doesn't really mean much when you have the same content typed on the same document on the same machines in the same environment in the same timeframe.

Did you watch the video in full?

Dates were stamped, which provides a unique identifying feature to a document. Since evidently, the ink can be more/less, the stamping might lean more on one side then the other, or as focused upon in the analysts report the stamping can happen at different angles.

Edit: In the case of Obama's certificate, and the one found which it was copied from, they match identically when the offset is included. The uniquely identifying marks can't be replicated by the originally claimed Xerox 7655.

Mike Zullo (presenting in video) asked his friend Mark Gillar to take a look, who then saw original Ah'nee certificate was scanned and a little offset by 1.5 degrees. When the offset is fixed, there is a perfect match between Obama's certificate and Ah'nees. After that, it was sent off to Hawaii and Italy to specialist document forensic organisations who concluded the certificate was fabricated.

Being found in a different location, is no issue digitally. If the dates are digitally copied they can be pasted in ANY location into a new document. They can copy and paste individual numbers if they like all in different orders. So I'm not sure I understand what you mean by placement or how such is a problem.

Furthermore, there are other elements such as boxes crossed in ink, which were copied over. Anyone can watch the video of the documentary evidence and analysis from 8 minutes in here: https://youtu.be/yuhF-Ok3djI?t=8m

[edwardmurphy]

Most of that has been debunked and certian ones it depends on who you believe and others will be shown true. It is not Trump's fault Mitch McConnell does not want to investigte vote fraud to expose the vote fraud that we know happens.As a matter of fact you still have election fraud in the Democrat party right now proven by the leaked e-mails of Democrats that Wikileaks revealed and yet you think your vote matters.I don't see how you can ignore these e-mails from Democrats communicating with one another and still choose to be a Democrat.There is massive corruption in the Democrat Party and yet you're nit-picking Trump.

Debunked? Seriously? I mean, you're correct, all of those claims were made by Sideshow Don and they were all debunked, but I'm surprised to hear you say it.

And NIT PICKING??? Seriously? NIT PICKING??? Abe, thanks to you buffoons the man is president! His words now matter more than those of any other American! He can't just blurt out whatever stupid thing pops into his head! He could literally start a financial crisis, or a riot, or even a war! When he lies - which he does both blatantly and constantly - it matters!

Also, you seem to be conflating the Democratic Party elite's decision to support Hillary Clinton with the voter fraud. The two issues aren't connected, and wouldn't be even if the latter were real.

Also, I'm not a member of any political party, including the Democratic Party. Seriously, we have two major political parties, they're the same two that we've had for our entire lives, yet somehow you can't swing a dead cat without hitting some jackass that can't remember their names...

[DBowling]

I had already discussed the flaws in the 'forensic analysis' earlier in the thread you linked to...

Short version...
Arpaio could only find two people to support their assertion that it was forged.
Arpaio's assertion is not a concensus opinion among forensic analysts.
9 points of convergence is not unexpected when you have the same document created on the same typewriters within the same time frame
The date stamps were not identical and they were located in different points in the document.

Arpaio didn't try "finding" two people to support, rather sent the documents to two different digital document experts who live on two different continents. According to these experts, the "nine points of forgery" found on Obama's birth certificate, words, letters and numbers, were digitally copied and pasted.

And the fact that there are only two 'experts' in the world who buy into this theory speaks directly to the accuracy of the theory.
If this theory were true, then one would expect a lot more forensic analysts to chime in and corroborate Arpaio's allegations.

Still waiting for your own forensic analysts you mention disagreed.

And I'm still waiting for corroboration from more than two forensic analysts.

I'm open to alternative opinion based upon substance. Knowing what I do about digital images and what-not, the video which provides a copy and paste demonstration, the evidence appears quite damning that the certificate was fabricated.

For me the conclusion drawn from the evidence in the video is quite flawed.
Since points of congruence within typed content is unremarkable, the non typed content is the key for me here. And the non typed content does not match in either content or location on the document.

Did you watch the video in full?

Back when it was first posted... yes.
I am honestly interested in whether or not there is any real evidence to support the birther claims.

So far, I have seen none... including this video.

[Philip]

What is certainly true is that there were people who had motivations to do this, particularly as Obama gained traction. Human beings are all the same, and those with certain motivations and viewpoints are apt to do all manner of clandestine shenanigans. And people of whatever ideology are so often convinced that their actions are noble and altruistic. So, while it's one thing to question the birth certificate doubters or the analysis, one should never question that this is a distinct possibility. So many of the naysayers in things like this, seem to have the attitude that it's just a conspiracy theory, or that there weren't people so motivated or with the expertise. Same deal with the wiretapping of Trump. All it takes is motivation, ability and opportunity. All three of those existed with Obama's birth certificate and with the Trump bugging. The questions as to whether there is proof of such - that's a reasonable thing to ask. But cynically doubting it to be possible - unreasonable and naive, given the stakes and motivations. For either, I hope it's not true, don't know for certain that it is (although there are some strong reasons for suspicion), but I also wouldn't be the least surprised if they are true. Some seem far to quick to dismiss such things. But three things about saying such things aren't true: That doesn't mean it's not so; doesn't mean it is; and doesn't mean it's impossible.

[abelcainsbrother]

Most of that has been debunked and certian ones it depends on who you believe and others will be shown true. It is not Trump's fault Mitch McConnell does not want to investigte vote fraud to expose the vote fraud that we know happens.As a matter of fact you still have election fraud in the Democrat party right now proven by the leaked e-mails of Democrats that Wikileaks revealed and yet you think your vote matters.I don't see how you can ignore these e-mails from Democrats communicating with one another and still choose to be a Democrat.There is massive corruption in the Democrat Party and yet you're nit-picking Trump.

Debunked? Seriously? I mean, you're correct, all of those claims were made by Sideshow Don and they were all debunked, but I'm surprised to hear you say it.

And NIT PICKING??? Seriously? NIT PICKING??? Abe, thanks to you buffoons the man is president! His words now matter more than those of any other American! He can't just blurt out whatever stupid thing pops into his head! He could literally start a financial crisis, or a riot, or even a war! When he lies - which he does both blatantly and constantly - it matters!

Also, you seem to be conflating the Democratic Party elite's decision to support Hillary Clinton with the voter fraud. The two issues aren't connected, and wouldn't be even if the latter were real.

Also, I'm not a member of any political party, including the Democratic Party. Seriously, we have two major political parties, they're the same two that we've had for our entire lives, yet somehow you can't swing a dead cat without hitting some jackass that can't remember their names...

Trump is not blurting out whatever stupid thing pops in his head.He knows exactly what his agenda is and he is fighting for it and he just does not and will not just sit back and take these unfair lies and slanderous accusations being thrown at him like you are use to and want him to do.He will hit back and he will expose and he will point out things that hurts the ones who attacked him more than they hurt him.He has done this althroughout the election and he is winning. You are under-estimating him even when he is slowly and methodically defeating his opposition no matter what they throw at him. Ya'll have'nt even made a dent in the Trump train and it is sill moving. You see,the jig is up. These lies and slanderous accusations that liberals have always used to take out political foes are no longer believed,they have cried wolf one too many times so that nothing they say against Trump is believed. Even if Trump was as bad as ya'll say? Liberals have no credibility and are not believed. It would take people with alot more credibility to point out how bad Trump is for it to be believed.

[abelcainsbrother]

What is certainly true is that there were people who had motivations to do this, particularly as Obama gained traction. Human beings are all the same, and those with certain motivations and viewpoints are apt to do all manner of clandestine shenanigans. And people of whatever ideology are so often convinced that their actions are noble and altruistic. So, while it's one thing to question the birth certificate doubters or the analysis, one should never question that this is a distinct possibility. So many of the naysayers in things like this, seem to have the attitude that it's just a conspiracy theory, or that there weren't people so motivated or with the expertise. Same deal with the wiretapping of Trump. All it takes is motivation, ability and opportunity. All three of those existed with Obama's birth certificate and with the Trump bugging. The questions as to whether there is proof of such - that's a reasonable thing to ask. But cynically doubting it to be possible - unreasonable and naive, given the stakes and motivations. For either, I hope it's not true, don't know for certain that it is (although there are some strong reasons for suspicion), but I also wouldn't be the least surprised if they are true. Some seem far to quick to dismiss such things. But three things about saying such things aren't true: That doesn't mean it's not so; doesn't mean it is; and doesn't mean it's impossible.

Although he has not presented the evidence Trump told a reporter for Newsmax that he will be vindicated over his wiretapping claim and I believe him. And as far as the Russia hack story there are several liberal MSM outlets now denying it after harping on it for months.This is why nobody believes anything they report and it was lies and slander against Trump and his administration just as has been said.It was lies and slander against Trump and now their credibility goes down even more and Trump is still standing and is about to drop the hammer on his opposition for wiretapping him.

[Kurieuo]

I had already discussed the flaws in the 'forensic analysis' earlier in the thread you linked to...

Short version...
Arpaio could only find two people to support their assertion that it was forged.
Arpaio's assertion is not a concensus opinion among forensic analysts.
9 points of convergence is not unexpected when you have the same document created on the same typewriters within the same time frame
The date stamps were not identical and they were located in different points in the document.

Arpaio didn't try "finding" two people to support, rather sent the documents to two different digital document experts who live on two different continents. According to these experts, the "nine points of forgery" found on Obama's birth certificate, words, letters and numbers, were digitally copied and pasted.

And the fact that there are only two 'experts' in the world who buy into this theory speaks directly to the accuracy of the theory.
If this theory were true, then one would expect a lot more forensic analysts to chime in and corroborate Arpaio's allegations.

Still waiting for your own forensic analysts you mention disagreed.

And I'm still waiting for corroboration from more than two forensic analysts.

I'm open to alternative opinion based upon substance. Knowing what I do about digital images and what-not, the video which provides a copy and paste demonstration, the evidence appears quite damning that the certificate was fabricated.

For me the conclusion drawn from the evidence in the video is quite flawed.
Since points of congruence within typed content is unremarkable, the non typed content is the key for me here. And the non typed content does not match in either content or location on the document.

Did you watch the video in full?

Back when it was first posted... yes.
I am honestly interested in whether or not there is any real evidence to support the birther claims.

So far, I have seen none... including this video.

It is apparent to me you don't understand digital imaging, which allows you to stick your head in the sand if you won't accept even impartial experts opinions in such.

Anyone who has done any digital image manipulation would fully understand, it's not just the ink but also background pixels that create a signature. These mere 9 points of congruency, would actually probably be more like 100 or 1000 depending upon the pixel alignment when each image is placed on top of the original. It's how they would have been able to tell even the box with cross in it and a line above was also copied from another source document.

This really is damning evidence, so I must think you are either just burying your head in the sand or don't understand digital imaging. I'm thinking from your comments that it is perhaps a little of both. And the birth certificate authenticity isn't the birther issue.

[DBowling]

It is apparent to me you don't understand digital imaging, which allows you to stick your head in the sand if you won't accept even impartial experts opinions in such.

It is apparent to me that you don't understand that the documents in question have nothing to do with digital imaging, and none of the evidence presented indicates that digital imaging was involved.

The easiest examples for anyone to understand are the date stamps.
The different content, combined with the angle, combined with the different location in the box, combined with the different spatial relationship with the typed content, combined with the different spatial relationship to the other date stamp demonstrates that it is extremely unlikely that the date stamps were a function of digital copying.

The date stamps are the most obvious demonstration of the flawed analysis of these so called experts.

Which is why I keep coming back the need for corroboration from other forensic analysts before we can take Arpaio's analysts seriously.
If this is a valid analysis then by now there should be more than two of Arpaio's hand picked 'experts' jumping on the forged certificate bandwagon.

This really is damning evidence, so I must think you are either just burying your head in the sand or don't understand digital imaging.

Another option is that I'm not quite as gullible as you appear to be on this topic.

[Kurieuo]

Forgive me if I don't take you seriously any more in such matters.

[DBowling]

Forgive me if I don't take you seriously any more in such matters.

I'll be glad to...
As long as you will do me the same courtesy and forgive me for not taking you seriously either...

[Philip]

To believe it's not true is one thing. To believe it wasn't possible - that's just naive. Plus, DB's insinuation that somehow these analysts colluded to give Sheriff Joe the info he desired - where's the evidence of such? Do you not realize professional integrity and impartiality is a huge deal for such people and their ongoing business reputations?

[DBowling]

To believe it's not true is one thing. To believe it wasn't possible - that's just naive.

I have never said it wasn't possible.
I've repeatedly said that the evidence we have to date doesn't support the premise that Obama's certificate was forged.
Could future evidence change that?
Sure
But the evidence we have to date does not support that premise.

Plus, DB's insinuation that somehow these analysts colluded to give Sheriff Joe the info he desired - where's the evidence of such?

Lack of corroboration from independent sources.

Do you not realize professional integrity and impartiality is a huge deal for such people and their ongoing business reputations?

I have pointed out where the analysis presented in the video is flawed (the most obvious case involves the two date stamps).
I have not said that there is deliberate collusion.

Whatever the case, in order for an accusation of this scope to be taken seriously (ie the birth certificate of a former President of the United states was forged) there needs to be corroboration from independent sources.
And that corroboration simply has not happened... at least not that I am aware of.