Evidence for God from Science

neo wrote:


You mean the terrorists that were trained and funded via CIA and let loose on Russian forces? The blued eyed OBL who had dinners at white house?

You averting your eyes from the central truth that America funded and organized terrorist factions when it suited them and when after the fall of USSR their services were no longer needed they let them go rouge. Saddam and Qadaffi were terrible leaders but they kept vicious people like ISIS in check and in control. Eliminating these leaders left a power vaccum which ISIS filled.

I don't disagree with any of this. And, I have said as much on this board.

I am pointing the finger at West because it seems to have forgotten that it has illegitimate children in the east. The west bred those terrorists here so that is why the east have them mostly. And why shouldn't the people fund these guys? they have reason in lots of cases. You crippled Iraq and destabilised the entire region including Syria and Libya, their economies are dead. Your govt kills more civilians than terrorists via drone strikes. It attacks weddings where out of 200 people there is only one terrorist but the rest are labeled as collateral damage and you seem to agree that that is the suitable option. And if that is so then you should consider that your strikes are producing a new generation of people who see you as a bully and a murderer and it is easy to justify their hatred then when they have a dead body in their home, someone who is collateral damage.

I don't disagree with any of this, except your putting the blame on the west. These terrorists are hell bent on destroying anyone who disagrees with their ideology. Blaming the west is just an excuse to justify their actions. If it wasn't one thing the west did, they'd find something else to justify terrorism.

That hate you see is a result of American foreign policy in most cases. The west is to blame for its part so I am sorry if that hurts your feelings but I am not sure if looking at only one side of the picture helps anyone.

Neo,

First off, your opinion about the west being to blame does not hurt my feelings. And I don't look at only one side of the picture. I've said that I don't always agree with some of the things my government has done. But to say that the hate shown by Muslim terrorists is the result of American foreign policy, ignores the fundamental teachings of Islam, and puts the blame on secular governments. As a Christian, I hope you realize how utterly evil, Islam is. From its founding, to Muhammad, to its teachings. You aren't sticking your head in the sand, are you?

It takes two to tango. You can say that perhaps this is not as bad as I have put it but to deny that the west had nothing to do with it just ignorant.

That would be ignorant, if I did deny that the west had no blame in this. And since I've never even insinuated that, I'm confused as to where you got that.

BTW, I have not talked about radical vs moderate as I don't think it affects my point. My point rests on your foreign policies and your meddling with other countries elections and internal processes.

And it seems you're ignoring how evil Islam really is. Living where you do, I'd think you'd understand that.

RickD wrote:

neo wrote:


You mean the terrorists that were trained and funded via CIA and let loose on Russian forces? The blued eyed OBL who had dinners at white house?

You averting your eyes from the central truth that America funded and organized terrorist factions when it suited them and when after the fall of USSR their services were no longer needed they let them go rouge. Saddam and Qadaffi were terrible leaders but they kept vicious people like ISIS in check and in control. Eliminating these leaders left a power vaccum which ISIS filled.

I don't disagree with any of this. And, I have said as much on this board.

I am pointing the finger at West because it seems to have forgotten that it has illegitimate children in the east. The west bred those terrorists here so that is why the east have them mostly. And why shouldn't the people fund these guys? they have reason in lots of cases. You crippled Iraq and destabilised the entire region including Syria and Libya, their economies are dead. Your govt kills more civilians than terrorists via drone strikes. It attacks weddings where out of 200 people there is only one terrorist but the rest are labeled as collateral damage and you seem to agree that that is the suitable option. And if that is so then you should consider that your strikes are producing a new generation of people who see you as a bully and a murderer and it is easy to justify their hatred then when they have a dead body in their home, someone who is collateral damage.

I don't disagree with any of this, except your putting the blame on the west. These terrorists are hell bent on destroying anyone who disagrees with their ideology. Blaming the west is just an excuse to justify their actions. If it wasn't one thing the west did, they'd find something else to justify terrorism.

That hate you see is a result of American foreign policy in most cases. The west is to blame for its part so I am sorry if that hurts your feelings but I am not sure if looking at only one side of the picture helps anyone.

Neo,

First off, your opinion about the west being to blame does not hurt my feelings. And I don't look at only one side of the picture. I've said that I don't always agree with some of the things my government has done. But to say that the hate shown by Muslim terrorists is the result of American foreign policy, ignores the fundamental teachings of Islam, and puts the blame on secular governments. As a Christian, I hope you realize how utterly evil, Islam is. From its founding, to Muhammad, to its teachings. You aren't sticking your head in the sand, are you?

It takes two to tango. You can say that perhaps this is not as bad as I have put it but to deny that the west had nothing to do with it just ignorant.

That would be ignorant, if I did deny that the west had no blame in this. And since I've never even insinuated that, I'm confused as to where you got that.

BTW, I have not talked about radical vs moderate as I don't think it affects my point. My point rests on your foreign policies and your meddling with other countries elections and internal processes.

And it seems you're ignoring how evil Islam really is. Living where you do, I'd think you'd understand that.

Whether Islam is evil or not has no bearing on my argument. Islam doesn't appeal to me for many reasons, many for the same reasons as yours. But the pressure you guys are facing are a direct result of birthing these terrorists in countries you destablize, and continous meddling in foriegn affairs and rigged elections. It's ironic to see what happens when someone meddles in your elections.

My point is that this isn't a purely religious problem. And to paint it is such is ignorant. It's a geopolitical problem that has tangents in economics, military presence, and religion. So if you say, it's evil, that's fine with me, but does that address the problem? no. Because there are other vital factors which you miss when you say it's evil and that's the problem. Indonesia is Islamic, Bangladesh is, Bahrain is, many other countries and none try to do anything wrong with you. It's the countries you have meddled with who are targeting you. You need to realize this. Isn't that odd?

As I said earlier, look at Iran, a secular country that went through a religious revolution because of American rigging election and installing corrupt leadership. They turned to religion and now are a constant thorn in USA's side.

Neo: Whether Islam is evil or not has no bearing on my argument.

Then STOP!!! Because you need not go much further. If you do not recognize that it is ultimately the evil in hearts and minds where terror springs from - people encouraging the butchering of women, children and young people who have absolutely NOTHING to do with the past sins of Western governments. That's a pure excuse that is pathetic on a level that is beyond ridiculous. Of COURSE, one can try to justify whatever kind of murder and mayhem based upon political actions of whatever governments' pasts. And the thinking that this is logical - instead of encouraging dialogue and requesting their concerns be addressed, they think that gives them good reasons to do what they do???!!! And most such groups have butchered countless fellow MUSLIMS - just not Muslims within THEIR own faction - look at the whole Sunni vs Shiites thing.

To rationalize such thinking would be like me, no fan of Putin and the actions of Russia's government in how they have treated and long plotted against America and the West, plotting to maim Russian civilians in their own marketplaces, and thinking that's a rational and fitting just response. It's also buying into the complete fiction that these are rational people who only want reasonable things, and if we'd just do this or that, play nice, etc., they would stop their horrorshow. Anyone believing that is completely clueless. So they're upset about economic injustices, occupation or whatever, and their response is to KILL people - usually as many innocent civilians as possible. And, BTW, they are also using the teachings in the Quran as justification. Rick is right - this is coming from a source of great evil influence. To not recognize that and try to make it seem rational - that's just sick. Why do you think so many MUSLIMS hate terrorism??? Across Britain - most Muslims are ashamed and angry at these terrorist monsters - THEY sure don't think it's a rational response.

Let's not forget that the Islamist groups have drawn targets upon virtually every major Muslim countries' leadership. The Saudi's would dispatch the Persians of Iran in a moment if they could do so. Same with Iran against them. What's at the heart of all of these justifications by the monsters planning these murderous crimes: Islamic teachings based upon the Quran. Face facts! And ALL of the Islamic republics justify their rule upon their religious beliefs and associations. This is a huge reason why there are no Islamic democracies.

Phil took the words out of my mouth. If you even have to hesitate whether or not you think Islam is evil, that kind of makes this Rube Goldberg Machine behind all these excuses about Islamic behavior moot.

Neo,

Muslim terrorists kill because that's what they do. Blaming the west, is just an excuse they use to justify what their religion teaches.

If the reason behind them attacking the west was really because we destabilized the countries they live in, then why would they attack us? If you're right, and the US and others took out leaders, which allowed these terrorist groups to come to power, they should be thanking us, not killing us!

If you're right, we helped them gain power!

RickD wrote:Muslim terrorists kill because that's what they do.

Come on, Rick, they're not cartoon super villains.

Terrorists, Muslim or otherwise, use violence to achieve their political goals. ISIS seems to want to take as much territory as possible, destabilize what it can't take, punish anybody who interferes, and drive a wedge between Islam and the rest of the world.

Manchester fits the last two goals. They killed British kids to show that they would and could. That was a warning against interfering in the Middle East. That horrific act also served to make it a lot harder for innocent Muslims living in Great Britain. There will be more anti-Muslim sentiment, which will spread the conditions that lead British Muslim kids to self-radicalize and murder their fellow citizens. And thanks to folks like FOX and Breitbart and their foreign doppelgangers that hate, fear, and paranoia will spread far beyond Manchester. It will lead to things like this. And there's the wedge being driven a bit deeper and the distance between Islam and the West growing a bit more.

This isn't rocket science...

edwardmurphy wrote:

RickD wrote:Muslim terrorists kill because that's what they do.

Come on, Rick, they're not cartoon super villains.

Terrorists, Muslim or otherwise, use violence to achieve their political goals. ISIS seems to want to take as much territory as possible, destabilize what it can't take, punish anybody who interferes, and drive a wedge between Islam and the rest of the world.

Manchester fits the last two goals. They killed British kids to show that they would and could. That was a warning against interfering in the Middle East. That horrific act also served to make it a lot harder for innocent Muslims living in Great Britain. There will be more anti-Muslim sentiment, which will spread the conditions that lead British Muslim kids to self-radicalize and murder their fellow citizens. And thanks to folks like FOX and Breitbart and their foreign doppelgangers that hate, fear, and paranoia will spread far beyond Manchester. It will lead to things like this. And there's the wedge being driven a bit deeper and the distance between Islam and the West growing a bit more.

This isn't rocket science...

I see you're unfamiliar with the goal of Islam.

Islam doesn't have a goal because Islam isn't a monolithic entity. It's many different people in many different places with many different beliefs and goals.

It's funny that you're going in this direction, while Abe is misunderstanding Christianity the same way in the next thread down.

Ed is unlikely to see any belief system as inherently evil or dangerous, as he doesn't believe in spiritual forces - good or bad. At least he could look at the horrific fruit produced by those with correlating beliefs across the world.

I've not read any of the Koran so admit to ignorance. One of my daughters friends is a Muslim and was absolutely distraught about the Manchester attacks, livid that her faith was being abused, scared to go to school because she was afraid she would be labelled as evil.

edwardmurphy wrote:Islam doesn't have a goal because Islam isn't a monolithic entity. It's many different people in many different places with many different beliefs and goals.

It's funny that you're going in this direction, while Abe is misunderstanding Christianity the same way in the next thread down.

Well ed,

The Quran would disagree with you.

The Quran, much like the Bible, says a great many things. And Muslims, much like Christians, have been known to pick and choose which things to adhere to and which to ignore based on their own preferences. It really doesn't make a whole lot of difference what the books say.

Philip wrote:Ed is unlikely to see any belief system as inherently evil or dangerous, as he doesn't believe in spiritual forces - good or bad.

Not true, Phil. Any belief system is potentially dangerous. Frankly, I think that the reason that we're not in a massive, all-out war with the Muslim world isn't because Christians are calmer, more rational, or morally superior to Muslims, it's because the governments of the Western powers are all secular and decisions aren't made based on how many scary quotes you can cherry-pick from the Koran in an afternoon.

Philip wrote:At least he could look at the horrific fruit produced by those with correlating beliefs across the world.

You know that I'm aware, Phil. I'm also aware that it's more complicated than some here are willing to accept.

For those wallowing in ignorance, like ed, this link shows the goal of Islam.