Evidence for God from Science

Kenny wrote:

Kurieuo wrote: As a side, quantum experiments have shown an observer is needed to have photons behave like matter (particles), otherwise a wave effect is had. Therefore, it seems that we don't just need energy, but also consciousness of some sort to move (convert) energy into matter. In other words, consciousness acting upon energy appears necessary to actualise its potential form of matter. Whether such consciousness is eternally inherent in the fabric of nature/the universe, or belongs to some super intelligent being like God as Jews/Christians believe, it seems to me science proves materialism/physicalism fails.

Are you sure consciousness is required to move/convert energy into matter? Or is this just speculation on your part because based on what we know it seems to make sense.

Research "observer effect".

patrick wrote:

claysmithr wrote:Yes, this is exactly it. If eternal death is the endgame for all life, then the unborn basically miss nothing compared to the born, besides a small blip of existence. No meaning, no justice, no mercy, no hope, complete insignificance.

I wouldn't go so far as to say it'd be completely insignificant, but I agree that the significance of eternal death is usually grossly understated by nonChristians.

Unbelief itself is a sin, and exposed as a sin in John Piper's book "Battling Unbelief"

This interests me. Could you summarize what you mean by it being exposed as a sin?

I hope I get this right, I'd encourage you to read to book because it's fascinating (and short). Basically, if you believe in God's superior promises and his future grace, you will sin less, because God becomes more appealing than sin.

However, if you don't believe in God, nothing will stop you from sinning. The root of our sin is basically unbelief about God's future grace towards us.

We therefore must find superior pleasure in God then in sin, loving God's greater promises vs sins promises.

So, unbelief is a sin because without superior pleasure in God we will find nothing greater than us to stop us from our sinning.

Mallz wrote: Now, what does Clay have to say? And how far off are my thoughts from his intent?
And now that I have your attention, too, Clay. Why do you consider yourself a coward for living for the church instead of dying for it? I find it's a LOT harder to live and it takes much more courage to live day by day than to die for Him. In other words, It's much harder to die to Him day after day, than it is to die once for Him in faith.

Aww... thanks Mallz. I'd consider myself a coward for the fear of death, which I am not supposed to have as a Christian?

I get your point... I deal with bipolar depression and if I really wanted to die as a martyr... if I did it on purpose that would be cowardly too, although I'd have to have a certain amount of bravery... I think I'm more useful alive then dead and I'll only die as a martyr if God decides to give me that death.

I'm glad we have Kenny here.. other wise the topic would be dead I really wasn't expecting such controversy :p

Kenny wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

Kenny wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:Kenny, if energy can NOT be created and can NOT be destroyed and exists infinitely as YOU state ( and the law of thermodynamics states) then eternity exists for what else is eternity if not infinity and what is infinity if not eternity?

Is this in reference to when I spoke of the "threat or promise of eternity"? If not, where are you getting at here?

You said you don't believe in eternity.

What was the context of which I said this?

Oh, sorry, so you do believe in eternity?
Sorry I misunderstood what you were implying.

Kurieuo wrote:

Kenny wrote:

Kurieuo wrote: As a side, quantum experiments have shown an observer is needed to have photons behave like matter (particles), otherwise a wave effect is had. Therefore, it seems that we don't just need energy, but also consciousness of some sort to move (convert) energy into matter. In other words, consciousness acting upon energy appears necessary to actualise its potential form of matter. Whether such consciousness is eternally inherent in the fabric of nature/the universe, or belongs to some super intelligent being like God as Jews/Christians believe, it seems to me science proves materialism/physicalism fails.

Are you sure consciousness is required to move/convert energy into matter? Or is this just speculation on your part because based on what we know it seems to make sense.

Research "observer effect".

AKA speculation.

Kenny wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:

Kenny wrote:

Kurieuo wrote: As a side, quantum experiments have shown an observer is needed to have photons behave like matter (particles), otherwise a wave effect is had. Therefore, it seems that we don't just need energy, but also consciousness of some sort to move (convert) energy into matter. In other words, consciousness acting upon energy appears necessary to actualise its potential form of matter. Whether such consciousness is eternally inherent in the fabric of nature/the universe, or belongs to some super intelligent being like God as Jews/Christians believe, it seems to me science proves materialism/physicalism fails.

Are you sure consciousness is required to move/convert energy into matter? Or is this just speculation on your part because based on what we know it seems to make sense.

Research "observer effect".

AKA speculation.

About as speculative as any other scientific conclusion.

You remind me of a story about a man convinced he was dead. Nothing anyone could say would convince him otherwise. You're obviously thirsty for something Kenny. There's water all around you, and yet you don't see anything to drink.

Kenny wrote: That eternal does not show God's presence

How can you use the term God to me if you refuse to define it for me for yourself? It doesn't matter if you believe in God. What matters is that we have an honest conversation which the intent is honest discussion of our world views. Which is what I believe your original interest is, right? So let me say this: eternal does show God's presence. And if all that is ever gathered is that eternal something=God (whatever that definition is), then so be it. I don't care as much for the identity of God than the reality of God. And I don't assume you think differently. The reality of God lead me to the Identity of Him (and I acknowledge the opposite for you).

Mallz wrote: God is energy and all that exists appears from Him and we exist in Him and He could displace this energy holding existence together and everything would perish. Forming matter from light, creating from energy. God isn't material, nor is He His creations, yet He is present in subset of it all.

Kenny wrote:Do you believe energy converts to matter, and visa versa?

Yes, and there are many forms (if you could say that..) within energy. I believe the energy that forms reality is grounded but separate from/within what I would consider Divine Being (or Existence as It is; which all sprouts from). You could equate that with whatever 'It' is that brings forth everything.

claysmithr wrote: Aww... thanks Mallz. I'd consider myself a coward for the fear of death, which I am not supposed to have as a Christian?

Having a fear of death is being sane! Knowing no fear of death is being resolute in your beliefs! Other people beyond Christian have that I don't fear death because of my living knowledge of Him and what is to come. Despite my eternal destination. But even if we die, what race have we ran? People look for physical signs to glorify Him, yet it is the sacrifice of the heart that not only is what he wants, but ultimately what he will be able to work with in forming His image (you, me, us) into eternity. We are all a spice of life, ya know?

claysmithr wrote:I get your point... I deal with bipolar depression and if I really wanted to die as a martyr... if I did it on purpose that would be cowardly too, although I'd have to have a certain amount of bravery... I think I'm more useful alive then dead and I'll only die as a martyr if God decides to give me that death.

Yes, very true words. And I can attest to you, I should have died by my own hand and others and haven't. My, and everyones life is His desire and we will all die only in His choosing.

claysmithr wrote:I'm glad we have Kenny here.. other wise the topic would be dead I really wasn't expecting such controversy :p

I have a feeling I come off as a d*ck to Kenny and don't mean to... I think Kenny has a wonderful heart and truly seeks to live honestly. And as you said, He brings life to the forum (which I think speaks volumes on it's own). What controversy? I wasn't really paying attention...

Kenny wrote: That eternal does not show God's presence

Mallz wrote: How can you use the term God to me if you refuse to define it for me for yourself? It doesn't matter if you believe in God. What matters is that we have an honest conversation which the intent is honest discussion of our world views. Which is what I believe your original interest is, right?

Actually when I mentioned God while speaking to you, I was referring to your concept of God; the God of the bible.

Mallz wrote: So let me say this: eternal does show God's presence. And if all that is ever gathered is that eternal something=God (whatever that definition is), then so be it. I don't care as much for the identity of God than the reality of God. And I don't assume you think differently. The reality of God lead me to the Identity of Him (and I acknowledge the opposite for you).

Don’t get me wrong; I do understand your position, as a Christian it makes perfect sense to see eternity and all that exists as evidence of God. But as an atheist..... well let me put it this way.
If I believed in Santa Clause, and I defined Santa as a man who makes toys in the North Pole for little kids, the very existence of toys would be evidence of Santa to me, but it would not be to you.
If you believe in God, and you defined God as someone eternal who created all that exist, the very existence of eternity and all that exist would be evidence of God to you, but it would not be for me.

Mallz wrote: God is energy and all that exists appears from Him and we exist in Him and He could displace this energy holding existence together and everything would perish. Forming matter from light, creating from energy. God isn't material, nor is He His creations, yet He is present in subset of it all.

Kenny wrote:Do you believe energy converts to matter, and visa versa?

Mallz wrote: Yes, and there are many forms (if you could say that..) within energy. I believe the energy that forms reality is grounded but separate from/within what I would consider Divine Being (or Existence as It is; which all sprouts from). You could equate that with whatever 'It' is that brings forth everything.

So you believe in the physical energy detectable and studied by science known to convert to matter, then there is another type of energy undetectable or studied by science that is responsible for all that exists? If this is correct I must ask why label the one not studied by science “energy”? If it isn’t physical or studied by science, why give it the same name of something that is?
However if I have misunderstood you, please explain where I’ve gone wrong.

If you believe in God, and you defined God as someone eternal who created all that exist, the very existence of eternity and all that exist would be evidence of God to you, but it would not be for me.

Just an FYI but do you know of any christian that actually uses that criteria ?

It should be more, at least, like this:
If you believe in God, and you defined God as someone eternal who created all that exist, the very existence of eternity and all that exist AND EVIDENCE THEY WHAT EXISTS CAME INTO BEING would be evidence of God to you, but it would not be for me.

Or even:

If you believe in God, and you defined God as someone eternal who created all that exist, the very existence of eternity and EVIDENCE THAT WHAT EXISTS CAME INTO BEING AND THAT IT IS SUSTAINED NOW would be evidence of God to you, but it would not be for me.

Or even:
If you believe in God, and you defined God as someone eternal who created all that exist, THE VERY EXISTENCE OF ANYTHING THAT IS CAUSED BY SOMETHING TO COME INTO EXISTENCE, would be evidence of A FORCE THAT CAUSED SOMETHINGS TO COME INTO BEING AND CAUSED THEM TO STAY IN EXISTENCE IN THERE HERE AND NOW, would be evidence of God to you, but it would not be for me.

And so forth.
I don't know of any believer that simply believes that just because things exist that means God exists, there is always more to it than that.
The understanding that God IS existence and without God there would be nothing. is many steps AFTER the understanding that God created all that came into being

PaulSacramento wrote:

If you believe in God, and you defined God as someone eternal who created all that exist, the very existence of eternity and all that exist would be evidence of God to you, but it would not be for me.

Just an FYI but do you know of any christian that actually uses that criteria ?

It should be more, at least, like this:
If you believe in God, and you defined God as someone eternal who created all that exist, the very existence of eternity and all that exist AND EVIDENCE THEY WHAT EXISTS CAME INTO BEING would be evidence of God to you, but it would not be for me.

Or even:

If you believe in God, and you defined God as someone eternal who created all that exist, the very existence of eternity and EVIDENCE THAT WHAT EXISTS CAME INTO BEING AND THAT IT IS SUSTAINED NOW would be evidence of God to you, but it would not be for me.

Or even:
If you believe in God, and you defined God as someone eternal who created all that exist, THE VERY EXISTENCE OF ANYTHING THAT IS CAUSED BY SOMETHING TO COME INTO EXISTENCE, would be evidence of A FORCE THAT CAUSED SOMETHINGS TO COME INTO BEING AND CAUSED THEM TO STAY IN EXISTENCE IN THERE HERE AND NOW, would be evidence of God to you, but it would not be for me.

And so forth.
I don't know of any believer that simply believes that just because things exist that means God exists, there is always more to it than that.
The understanding that God IS existence and without God there would be nothing. is many steps AFTER the understanding that God created all that came into being

Fair enough! Next will probably be some kid signing in to chew me out for misrepresenting Santa Clause because I neglected to mention the elves and flying Reindeer. I wasn’t really trying to get into details; I was just trying to make a point in order to get him to see things from my point of view.

Ken

And my point Kenny is that, and this has been mentioned before, YOUR understanding of Christianity and what Christians think/believe, is not very good.

PaulSacramento wrote:And my point Kenny is that, and this has been mentioned before, YOUR understanding of Christianity and what Christians think/believe, is not very good.

Are you under the impression that there is a consistency in what Christians think/believe? Just because you as a Christian may think/believe "X" doesn't mean all or even most other Christians will think/believe it.

Kenny wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:And my point Kenny is that, and this has been mentioned before, YOUR understanding of Christianity and what Christians think/believe, is not very good.

Are you under the impression that there is a consistency in what Christians think/believe? Just because you as a Christian may think/believe "X" doesn't mean all or even most other Christians will think/believe it.

All Christians believe:
God is Eternal
God is Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient, All loving, the creator of all that exists.
That belief in God is rational and reasonable.
The Jesus Christ is Son of God, has the same nature as God, that He died and was resurrected and will come again.
The wicked and those that reject Christ will be judged.

Sounds pretty consistent to me...

PaulSacramento wrote:

Kenny wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:And my point Kenny is that, and this has been mentioned before, YOUR understanding of Christianity and what Christians think/believe, is not very good.

Are you under the impression that there is a consistency in what Christians think/believe? Just because you as a Christian may think/believe "X" doesn't mean all or even most other Christians will think/believe it.

All Christians believe:
God is Eternal
God is Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient, All loving, the creator of all that exists.
That belief in God is rational and reasonable.
The Jesus Christ is Son of God, has the same nature as God, that He died and was resurrected and will come again.
The wicked and those that reject Christ will be judged.

Sounds pretty consistent to me...

I agree! Now considering all the discussions you and I have had over the years; which on this list do you get the impression that I am unaware Christians believe?

Ken