Evidence for God from Science

RickD wrote:

neo-x wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:Abortion results in killing an innocent human life. People mightn't like that fact, feel inconvenienced by that fact, laws might say it's fine for women to go see someone who can kill and remove a 24 week baby in the womb, but given biologically such represents a human life and secondly such has done nothing wrong which morally justifies a death sentence, then such for me fits what I understand murder to be.

I have never considered abortion to be murder and I think it's just going too far with the idea. While I generally don't like the idea of abortion - because it is a waste of potential life - I think there are times when abortion works as a solution.

This coming from a guy who believes that there's no way to justify the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

Neo, that's pretty inconsistent, wouldn't you say?

Not at all. The two seem different issues to me.

Jeremiah 1:5: “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you;"

Isaiah 49:5: "And now the Lord says, he who formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob back to him; and that Israel might be gathered to him— for I am honored in the eyes of the Lord, and my God has become my strength—"
Luke 1:15:"for he will be great before the Lord. And he must not drink wine or strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb."

Psalm 139:13: "For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb."

So, Neo, God's prophets reveal that He views the unborn as persons, and also knitted YOU together in your mother's womb. Neo was once a fetus! As we all were. The adult Neo would be impossible without the unborn Neo - even from the first moment of conception. Kill 2-month old, developing Neo, then you've also killed the Neo we all know and love. Everyone's life includes the portion of their existence before they were born. As it is GOD who gives the gift of life, made in His Image, Who knows us in the womb, Who says He knits us together in our unborn state - do you really think ANYONE has a right to kill what God began? Do you think God thinks that is acceptable? No one reading and believing Scripture should believe such a monstrous thing! And now that modern science can even make pictures of the early stages of a human, we can see that there not just a blob of tissues in there, but a human being.

People in the West, particularly, point to all manner of circumstances why they think it reasonable to abort their children - with adoption available, etc. No, it's not gonna be easy for a lot of women. But when the poorest of women in Calcutta slums adore and care for their children, who would see it as a unthinkable thing to abort their children - though they themselves have very little even to eat - what does that say about the abortion culture? What does it say about the often-promiscuous culture that drives the demand for it?

neo-x wrote:

Storyteller wrote:I hope this thread stays. The discussions on this board about abortion, the rights of a mother to abort their baby (or not) and when human life begins changed my veiws.
I used to believe it was down to the individual, that it should be their choice. After reading and discussing on here i came to see that abortion is murder.
As for when life begins, it begins the second of fertlilization. I lost four babies, one before I even knew i was pregnant and there is no difference to me. Sure, losing, or aborting, a baby at say 4 weeks as opposed to 12 weeks, is different but only because people can kid themselves the baby is merely a collection of cells as if that makes it okay. We are all a collection of cells.

It makes sense to me that the souls of aborted babies go to heaven as I dont think they will have rejected Christ.

Abortion is not murder. Murder implies killing without any justification, cause or valid reasons.

There is no justification, cause or valid reason to kill an unborn child. That right belongs to God, and Him alone.

Dont get me wrong, in some situations it must be heartbreakingly difficult to go through with some pregnancies but that doesnt give us the right to play God.
By aborting a human life are we not actually saying that we dont trust God?

Nessa wrote:abortion works for a solution? You say that like a solution couldnt possibly be evil.

A solution is of course to a problem. Consider china, India # Pakistan. Some of the most popultlated countries in the world. In some places abortion is not a choice - choice like it is in the west. Sometimes it is just necessity.

neo-x wrote:

Nessa wrote:abortion works for a solution? You say that like a solution couldnt possibly be evil.

A solution is of course to a problem. Consider china, India # Pakistan. Some of the most popultlated countries in the world. In some places abortion is not a choice - choice like it is in the west. Sometimes it is just necessity.

That's not necessity. That's government dictate. Stop falling for government propaganda.

Little Hamster: Some other things to consider:

- There is the case of Moses and Elijah showing up on the mountain before the final show. Where were they in the meantime ?

- Peter tells of Judas "going to his own place" (likely to be hell but it is not stated) Acts 1:25

- Jesus says "My Father's house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?" John 14:2

Heaven and hell - definitely yes, but there seems to be a lot more too it. For example Mysticism and some other esoteric religious texts talk of many hells and heavens (7 planes - each one comprised of 7 subplanes - 49 in total and the ones beyond that which no human soul has reached yet). Where you end up depends on law and grace.

Little Hammy, let's please not derail this thread too far. Do a search on G&S about the afterlife, and/or start a new thread on it.

I caution you to not use texts of mysticism to find truth - that's a quick way to being mislead! For such texts, you have no idea as to their source, agenda, nor of whether those writing them (remember, the writers are all ALIVE) could even know such truths. The only trustworthy information about the afterlife is from the God who inspired the Bible writers to write down His inspired thoughts on that topic.

Meanwhile, consider:

2 Corinthians 5:6-8: "6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord— 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight— 8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

The underlined is for ALL Christians ONLY! The Apostle Paul asserts that when a Christian dies, they are immediately with the Lord, in the present Heaven.

Also, read the intro to Randy Alcorn's book on Heaven and the afterlife - lots of good stuff in it: https://www.epm.org/static/uploads/down ... points.pdf

neo-x wrote:

Nessa wrote:abortion works for a solution? You say that like a solution couldnt possibly be evil.

A solution is of course to a problem. Consider china, India # Pakistan. Some of the most popultlated countries in the world. In some places abortion is not a choice - choice like it is in the west. Sometimes it is just necessity.

Ok, perhaps there's a chance I'm missing something. How is murdering innocent humans a solution and a necessity?

RickD wrote:

neo-x wrote:

Nessa wrote:abortion works for a solution? You say that like a solution couldnt possibly be evil.

A solution is of course to a problem. Consider china, India # Pakistan. Some of the most popultlated countries in the world. In some places abortion is not a choice - choice like it is in the west. Sometimes it is just necessity.

Ok, perhaps there's a chance I'm missing something. How is murdering innocent humans a solution and a necessity?

OK but before we go forward It seems I am missing something too. Are you agreeing with me that killing innocent people like nuking Japan was unjustified?
From your wording I wanted to clarify.

Stu wrote:

neo-x wrote:

Nessa wrote:abortion works for a solution? You say that like a solution couldnt possibly be evil.

A solution is of course to a problem. Consider china, India # Pakistan. Some of the most popultlated countries in the world. In some places abortion is not a choice - choice like it is in the west. Sometimes it is just necessity.

That's not necessity. That's government dictate. Stop falling for government propaganda.

Not talking about propaganda and not sure what you are referring to.

Storyteller wrote:

neo-x wrote:

Storyteller wrote:I hope this thread stays. The discussions on this board about abortion, the rights of a mother to abort their baby (or not) and when human life begins changed my veiws.
I used to believe it was down to the individual, that it should be their choice. After reading and discussing on here i came to see that abortion is murder.
As for when life begins, it begins the second of fertlilization. I lost four babies, one before I even knew i was pregnant and there is no difference to me. Sure, losing, or aborting, a baby at say 4 weeks as opposed to 12 weeks, is different but only because people can kid themselves the baby is merely a collection of cells as if that makes it okay. We are all a collection of cells.

It makes sense to me that the souls of aborted babies go to heaven as I dont think they will have rejected Christ.

Abortion is not murder. Murder implies killing without any justification, cause or valid reasons.

There is no justification, cause or valid reason to kill an unborn child. That right belongs to God, and Him alone.

Dont get me wrong, in some situations it must be heartbreakingly difficult to go through with some pregnancies but that doesnt give us the right to play God.
By aborting a human life are we not actually saying that we dont trust God?

No I don't think it is that. Having abortion is not playing God. It is not even close. I think this is hyperbole at best.

neo-x wrote:

RickD wrote:

neo-x wrote:

Nessa wrote:abortion works for a solution? You say that like a solution couldnt possibly be evil.

A solution is of course to a problem. Consider china, India # Pakistan. Some of the most popultlated countries in the world. In some places abortion is not a choice - choice like it is in the west. Sometimes it is just necessity.

Ok, perhaps there's a chance I'm missing something. How is murdering innocent humans a solution and a necessity?

OK but before we go forward It seems I am missing something too. Are you agreeing with me that killing innocent people like nuking Japan was unjustified?
From your wording I wanted to clarify.

That's a really good question that we've discussed before. I've read both sides of that argument, for and against the bombings, and the reasons given to justify what was done.

I personally don't know if I could've dropped the bomb, knowing I was killing civilians including women and children. But I do understand what the consequences would've been if the bombs were not dropped, with the Japanese "never surrender" beliefs.

I guess if I had to choose, between justified and unjustified, with hindsight being 20/20, I'd choose justified. If there was another, better solution, then I'd say that the bombs were not justified. But looking back, there was no better solution.

OK, bombing, Japan, WWII, etc. - for the moment, let's not morph the conversation beyond abortion.

The ONLY consideration about abortion should be, WHAT, exactly, is being terminated. Unless it's just a blob, or mass like a diseased liver or whatever that is being removed, that's a different thing. But if it is a God-given human life we are speaking of - for the Christian - that should be the ONLY consideration, AND a morality no-brainer: We don't have the right to take a life that only God gives. Because all of the subsequent arguments are constructed around the sins of man and society. God says it is evil to unnecessarily take a human life. Period. Construct an argument that proves that an unborn child, at any point since conception, is not an actual human being, and then it would be a different debate. But no one can produce such an argument.

It really boils down to whether we believe what God has said about those in the womb, and how He commands us to view all human life as sacred.

Philip,

I'm trying to get to the reasons and rationale behind Neo's thinking that abortion is a "solution" and "necessary". In light of Neo's belief that Hiroshima was unjustified specifically because the bombing targeted and killed innocent civilians, I think the comparison is valid. And I think there's an inconsistency in Neo's beliefs between the two.

Like I said, I may be missing something, so I'd like to hear his opinion.

neo-x wrote:

Storyteller wrote:

neo-x wrote:

Storyteller wrote:I hope this thread stays. The discussions on this board about abortion, the rights of a mother to abort their baby (or not) and when human life begins changed my veiws.
I used to believe it was down to the individual, that it should be their choice. After reading and discussing on here i came to see that abortion is murder.
As for when life begins, it begins the second of fertlilization. I lost four babies, one before I even knew i was pregnant and there is no difference to me. Sure, losing, or aborting, a baby at say 4 weeks as opposed to 12 weeks, is different but only because people can kid themselves the baby is merely a collection of cells as if that makes it okay. We are all a collection of cells.

It makes sense to me that the souls of aborted babies go to heaven as I dont think they will have rejected Christ.

Abortion is not murder. Murder implies killing without any justification, cause or valid reasons.

There is no justification, cause or valid reason to kill an unborn child. That right belongs to God, and Him alone.

Dont get me wrong, in some situations it must be heartbreakingly difficult to go through with some pregnancies but that doesnt give us the right to play God.
By aborting a human life are we not actually saying that we dont trust God?

No I don't think it is that. Having abortion is not playing God. It is not even close. I think this is hyperbole at best.

It IS playing God. Aborting a baby is taking a life.
The bible justifies killing in certain situations I believe but in the name of righteousness. Ending the life of a baby is down to God, not us.
I used to be pro choice but after reading, debating, and following my heart, i see no reason, ever, to terminate a life in these situations.
I lost four babies and I miss them still but i know, now, that it was gods plan. By interfering, and aborting a baby, we are going against His plan.