Evidence for God from Science

It's so hard talking to Christians who believe we're forgiven and saved by grace through faith in Christ AND [add in some works]. Such Christians might say something like, "we're forgiven and saved when we ask Christ to forgives us our sin, come into our lives, repent of our sins to stop sinning." These Christians are normally the ones concerned about the sin in other Christians. It seems to me that many who judge other Christians and preach these works-based theologies may end up having a scandel of their own revealed. So sad, they're set free in Christ yet feel so trapped by their own sin that they take it out on other Christians they're meant to be correctly teaching.

There are many Christians trapped by a works-based theology. Such feel uncomfortable with just letting Christians naturally grow in righteousness via the work of the Holy Spirit, because they say there might be some who come to Christ and just willy-nilly going about their lives sinning and doing whatever they want. To which I reply, so bloody what, that's between that person and God? You've no doubt got your own logs to deal with. Such Christians may temporarily forget their own sinful desires of their flesh, perhaps take pride in momentarily conquering this or that sin in their life.

"Yes, it is by grace through faith in Christ, BUT you must also repent and stop sinning," they say. Then they go about backloading works into salvation and into the good news Christ brought. This is still a works-based theology AND worst yet, it pulls the rug out of the Gospel post-acceptance, the good news which says it is by Christ and Christ alone we are saved and not of our own doing. No one can boast about their Christianity, or how good of a Christian they are, only of the work God has wrought through us.

Are we a willing vessel that Christ can use, or aren't we? That is the main question for Christians post-accepting Christ. And often, it does take work on our part to change, to master our sinful bodies, to reach out to others and try to love them as Christ loves us, yet it is God who is steering us through life and placing things in our path that really test and refine us. There is zero soteriological merit to such however, that is, it makes no difference to one's standing with God and being saved what one DOES if their faith was truly in Christ.

People who think they can come to Christ by merely following some formula -- e.g., ask Christ for forgiveness, say the sinners prayer, repent (by which many mean to either "turn from their sin" i.e., stop sinning) -- AREN'T saved. Such could be just carrying out a process that has no real significance. Testing to see if they feel changed, like trying on a new set of clothes. The Israelites and many Jews today still try to follow a process, but their prophet Jeremiah warned that one day God would punish those who are only circumcised in the flesh. (Jer 9:25)

What is important isn't the process, isn't our sinful bodies which continue sinning, noone needs to tell a real Christian to also turn from sin. For all who are circumcised deeper down in their hearts will quite naturally wish they were different. Rather what matters is their true desire and change (a "circumcision of the heart" as Scripture describes). Read these passages: Deut 10:16; Deut 30:6; Jer 4:4; Jer 9:25; Acts 7:51; Phil 3:3; Col 2:11.

So then what matters when we come to Christ is that such is a heart-based response. We know inside ourselves we are sinners and really do need Christ, and we desire Him! The other things should follow more naturally, believing in Christ, asking God for forgiveness, such things are just a natural outcome of a circumcised heart (which mind you we also have a lot to thank God for when we come to this point of "circumcision" in our lives). Wanting to change and be more like Christ is also just something more natural for us even if we still struggle with being such.

God promises to be faithful to us in shaping and moulding us -- the Holy Spirit does this to us in life, tests us, refines us. God helps us to circumcise our flesh and bodies in ways neither the Jews or we ourselves could achieve alone. This continues until the day we die when we are truly free from our bodies of sin. That Christian person who is set free at death, never sinned (Bav you listening), but rather it was sin in weakness of flesh that Paul describes doing that which we do not want to do (Romans 7:14-25). When our bodies are shed, so too the weakness of our flesh and sinfulness is shed. We are finally set free and able to be our true selves in Christ. As Paul says (Bav, again you listening), "It is not I who do wrong, but sin that dwells within me." (Romans 7:17) There is no such thing as a Christian sinner who has truly had a circumcision of the heart in Christ, and thus the resulting belief in Christ which follows.

Bavarian: I will admit that if God begins a work, He will complete it.

Then?

But if that were true in the most literals sense, then there would be NO NEED for warnings to believers!

Yes, because believers need to realize that there will be people that come amongst them who aren't authentic believers. And it's also a warning for self-examination of one's own heart and mind, to make sure one has their heart, mind and has sought to commit themselves in sincere faith and desire for salvation and forgiveness. This self examination is very important, because people can certainly fool themselves into believing they are saved, when they are not.

Bavarian: I think I’ve shown plenty of warnings and admonishing the believer to REMAIN. The believer has a part in salvation...and that is to believe...and remain in that belief. God has done all that is needed,

Yes, He ALREADY has done all that has made salvation possible and insures it to the end ("will bring it to completion.") What about God completing one's salvation (a good work - GOD'S good work!) do you not understand?

Bavarian: ... our part is acceptance...and scripture says that that acceptance ( faith ) is dead, worth nothing, apart from the work that NATURALLY results from that faith on a continual basis.

There are good works of those saved (SIGNS / indications that they are saved), and then there is the Work of Salvation - that God begins and completes - you are confusing these. You don't (and can't) maintain, much less complete, GOD'S work of Salvation! But you appear to believe you can and that people do. Again, what level of sin in your life will make you slip? What level must be maintained so as to keep your salvation? Why is it called ETERNAL life? And why does Scripture teach ETERNAL life is entered into on EARTH - and not at some later, post-mortal date?

Kurieuo wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 4:24 pm It's so hard talking to Christians who believe we're forgiven and saved by grace through faith in Christ AND [add in some works].

It isn’t a works-based salvation. If it is, then you have issue with SCRIPTURE since I’ve plainly given the texts to back it up.

It is faith-based...solely on faith. Faith-that-isn’t-dead faith...as scripture makes clear.
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Philip wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 4:32 pmYes, because believers need to realize that there will be people that come amongst them who aren't authentic believers.

Who cares! If we can’t lose our salvation and there’s no need to REMAIN in Christ, then who cares who comes in!! You’re not thinking logically.
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K...I’m not trying to dismiss your post. I’m not in a place to be able to answer it fully. I will tomorrow.
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It's alright, it took me a couple hours and I performed a number of edits since.

Kurieuo wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 4:43 pm It's right, it took me a couple hours and performed a few edits in any case.

I wouldn’t say you’re wrong, I would ( humbly ) say you’re using texts that do not say what you think they say to prove something you’re trying to prove, but the texts say something or are talking about something different or in a different context.

I’m on my iPad and it makes copy/paste and quoting a lot more difficult and time consuming. Using a mouse to select is much faster. Less frustrating.


LOL...you meant “alright”...heh.
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BUT, I am right too.

Oh, and it's a fair point I'm using texts in different contexts, but those texts employ "circumcision" and "heart" terminology in ways that is nonetheless correctly extracted and often in a soteriological context. If I were to provide one passage that has all together a lot of what I just posted on, it'd be Romans 10:5-13 I'd be quoting:

5For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. 6But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7“or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

warren631 wrote: ↑Mon May 14, 2018 7:47 am How do I "call on the name of the Lord" (Romans 10:13) ? What is His name?

Sounds like you need the Romans Road.

Old Time Romans Road. For you.
https://youtu.be/1389PGLRmM0

Kurieuo wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 4:24 pm It's so hard talking to Christians who believe we're forgiven and saved by grace through faith in Christ AND [add in some works]. Such Christians might say something like, "we're forgiven and saved when we ask Christ to forgives us our sin, come into our lives, repent of our sins to stop sinning." These Christians are normally the ones concerned about the sin in other Christians. It seems to me that many who judge other Christians and preach these works-based theologies may end up having a scandel of their own revealed. So sad, they're set free in Christ yet feel so trapped by their own sin that they take it out on other Christians they're meant to be correctly teaching.

I don't promote a Faith+Works gospel anymore than Christ did through the account of the woman caught in adultery. ( John 8:1-11 )

John 8:10,11 NIV wrote:10Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”

11“No one, sir,” she said.

“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”

The KJV translates it as "...go and sin no more." Either way the wording promotes righteous living, an action...an action that very interestingly comes AFTER Christ declares that He does not condemn her!! That is it right there. Christ has declared to her that there is no condemnation from Him on her, and yet He tells her to "...leave your life of sin."

Kurieuo wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 4:24 pm There are many Christians trapped by a works-based theology. Such feel uncomfortable with just letting Christians naturally grow in righteousness via the work of the Holy Spirit, because they say there might be some who come to Christ and just willy-nilly going about their lives sinning and doing whatever they want. To which I reply, so bloody what, that's between that person and God? You've no doubt got your own logs to deal with. Such Christians may temporarily forget their own sinful desires of their flesh, perhaps take pride in momentarily conquering this or that sin in their life.

I grant you that people are trapped in a works-based theology. That doesn't make seeing the Law ( the 10 ) as still law a "works-based theology". Clearly neither does Christ or the Holy Spirit. If the law is powerless to save ( Romans 8:3 ), Christ comes to condemn SIN. The words are clear. Christ doesn't condemn the law...the law is holy, righteous and good ( Romans 7:12 ) , but condemns SIN...and then the kicker... ( Romans 8:4 )

Romans 8:4 and 7 wrote:...in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. [...] The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.

The requirements of the Law are righteous! It doesn't say the requirements of the Law except the Sabbath are righteous! The bible says, ALL the law and prophets is summed up in LOVE. ( Matthew 22:37-40 , Galatians 5:14 , Romans 13:8-10 )

Kurieuo wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 4:24 pm "Yes, it is by grace through faith in Christ, BUT you must also repent and stop sinning," they say. Then they go about backloading works into salvation and into the good news Christ brought. This is still a works-based theology AND worst yet, it pulls the rug out of the Gospel post-acceptance, the good news which says it is by Christ and Christ alone we are saved and not of our own doing. No one can boast about their Christianity, or how good of a Christian they are, only of the work God has wrought through us.

Whoever says that is dumb because while we can repent, we can't stop sinning. But the direction is no less the same direction Christ pointed the woman caught in adultery ( Commandment 7 ) and declared He didn't condemn her so "go and sin no more." You have to admit, adultery is a rather simple commandment to keep in action, maybe not in heart...hence repentance and leaning on God to change us.

Kurieuo wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 4:24 pm Are we a willing vessel that Christ can use, or aren't we? That is the main question for Christians post-accepting Christ. And often, it does take work on our part to change, to master our sinful bodies, to reach out to others and try to love them as Christ loves us, yet it is God who is steering us through life and placing things in our path that really test and refine us. There is zero soteriological merit to such however, that is, it makes no difference to one's standing with God and being saved what one DOES if their faith was truly in Christ.

Agreed. So to actively shove aside God's law because "you are no longer under the law" is to completely misinterpret what it means to be UNDER the law. If the law has righteous requirements, then to be ON TOP of the law is to be righteous and to be UNDER the law is to be found guilty of one sin, therefore guilty of them all. Again, we are redeemed from the CURSE of the law or redeemed from being UNDER the law...same thing. ( Galatians 3:13 )

Kurieuo wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 4:24 pm People who think they can come to Christ by merely following some formula -- e.g., ask Christ for forgiveness, say the sinners prayer, repent (by which many mean to either "turn from their sin" i.e., stop sinning) -- AREN'T saved. Such could be just carrying out a process that has no real significance. Testing to see if they feel changed, like trying on a new set of clothes. The Israelites and many Jews today still try to follow a process, but their prophet Jeremiah warned that one day God would punish those who are only circumcised in the flesh. (Jer 9:25)

Again, we agree. But that process also includes being lead by the Spirit and NOT the flesh...which is hostile to God's law. We just read this in Romans 8:1-11 that the law IS righteous requirements. Again, not that we must attain righteousness through the law, we already know the law is powerless to do this, but rather we live according to the Spirit...who does live by or on top of the law, so to speak, the Spirit is not UNDER the law. The Spirit is not guilty of any of the Law that He would be UNDER the law.

Kurieuo wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 4:24 pm What is important isn't the process, isn't our sinful bodies which continue sinning,

...and how do you know what sin is?

Kurieuo wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 4:24 pm...
noone needs to tell a real Christian to also turn from sin. For all who are circumcised deeper down in their hearts will quite naturally wish they were different. Rather what matters is their true desire and change (a "circumcision of the heart" as Scripture describes). Read these passages: Deut 10:16; Deut 30:6; Jer 4:4; Jer 9:25; Acts 7:51; Phil 3:3; Col 2:11.

I don't have anything against the above except to say that you say one thing from one side of your mouth and then something contrary from the other. You say, "...their true desire to change." Change from what and to what? It is plainly laid out in scripture in the above texts...and those aren't the only ones.

Kurieuo wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 4:24 pm So then what matters when we come to Christ is that such is a heart-based response. We know inside ourselves we are sinners and really do need Christ, and we desire Him!

How do we know we are sinners? What have we done that makes us sinners? Is there some list that exists that shows us what sin is? You're saying all the right words, but you're not having the desire to change. You're willing to change everything, BUT acknowledge God's righteous law.

Kurieuo wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 4:24 pm The other things should follow more naturally, believing in Christ, asking God for forgiveness, such things are just a natural outcome of a circumcised heart (which mind you we also have a lot to thank God for when we come to this point of "circumcision" in our lives). Wanting to change and be more like Christ is also just something more natural for us even if we still struggle with being such.

And wouldn't you say that if the requirements of the law are righteous, then Christ is righteous? So we know what sin is. It is everything in the law that points to, makes us aware of, makes us conscious of sin. ( Romans 3:20 , Romans 7:7 ) The law is spiritual ( Romans 7:14 ), My inner being delights in God's law ( Romans 7:22)

Kurieuo wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 4:24 pm God promises to be faithful to us in shaping and moulding us -- the Holy Spirit does this to us in life, tests us, refines us. God helps us to circumcise our flesh and bodies in ways neither the Jews or we ourselves could achieve alone. This continues until the day we die when we are truly free from our bodies of sin. That Christian person who is set free at death, never sinned (Bav you listening), but rather it was sin in weakness of flesh that Paul describes doing that which we do not want to do (Romans 7:14-25). When our bodies are shed, so too the weakness of our flesh and sinfulness is shed. We are finally set free and able to be our true selves in Christ. As Paul says (Bav, again you listening), "It is not I who do wrong, but sin that dwells within me." (Romans 7:17) There is no such thing as a Christian sinner who has truly had a circumcision of the heart in Christ, and thus the resulting belief in Christ which follows.

You're reading this all completely in the wrong context. It is ME, YOU, Paul that are in the flesh. It IS us that sin. We are sinners. If anyone claims not to be a sinner, they are a liar. ( 1 John 1:10 )

The end of Romans 7 is OH so clear.

Romans 7:25 wrote:Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful natured a slave to the law of sin.

This explains Romans 7 and the 'wretched man' that is a slave to the law of sin, but wants to be a slave to God's law...which is righteousness...it's holy, and good. God delivers us from that wretched person enslaved by the law of sin...which the law makes us conscious, makes us aware of.
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warren631 wrote: ↑Mon May 14, 2018 7:47 am How do I "call on the name of the Lord" (Romans 10:13) ? What is His name?

Call Him God, Father, Lord, Pop, Jesus, Christ, Saviour, YWHW, Redemer, Almighty or whatever. You know Warren, He’s not sitting on His throne thinking “you better get my name right” it’s us that gets very invested in terminology.
He just wants us to call on Him. If you knock the door will be opened.

I have been knocking all my life but the door of understanding seems forever closed for me. Or maybe I can't understand the truth. Or the truth seems too easy and simple. Maybe I should have the mind of a child instead of an engineer?

warren631 wrote: ↑Fri May 18, 2018 7:54 am I have been knocking all my life but the door of understanding seems forever closed for me. Or maybe I can't understand the truth. Or the truth seems too easy and simple. Maybe I should have the mind of a child instead of an engineer?

Actually the mind of engineer is very much suited for acceptance of a logical argument with sound premises and a necessary conclusion. That is, if that's the kind of belief you're looking for, not some caricature version made up by your flavor-of-the-day atheist.

Ohh haha that explains it an engineer . I feel like I have to put a disclaimer out there and it’s not for my benefit but for the board which I respect but my views aren’t mainstream. I think that it is simple. As far questioning the ‘right’ way to believe. Dogma and theology are secondary to adhering to the most valued principal of Jesus’ teaching. Love.
I always feel like I’m pulling out some hallmark card flippancy on the surface but I honestly believe we’ve become lost in some self perceived notion of accuracy that equates to this saying which honestly I detest which is ‘true’ teaching which denotes a ‘true’ Christian. It makes people very self assured because their version is without flaw and therefore very quick to judge.
But they’re all playing the i’m definitely right card, I’ll back it up with xyz of scripture but everyone thinks they’re right and it goes around and around in circles.
It does so because it’s all perception. One mob will go ‘noo this is the only way to truly believe’ and so says the next mob.....
But yet Jesus wasn’t so concerned with how accurate a persons undestanding was hence the Pharisees, they were the religious elite, they knew their stuff they just weren’t good at all the love part. Putting the teachings into practice. In fact those that Jesus praised for their faith were people like the Good Samaritan by way of parable who had their theology wrong but spoke the right language. Love and compassion with a heart to help those in need.
That’s the simple part...take up your cross and follow me. A renegade, in fact a religious renegade who was radical in His love. He brought people to His table who others thought were unworthy.
I think that for many Christian’s their biggest downfall is being too concerned with who’s on the guest list that they forget Jesus was sacrificed for those he was willing to have seated on His.