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Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:20 pm
by Storyteller
It's really hard to explain Kenny. I'm still kinda figuring it out myself. Have you read jacks essay on divine simplicity?
Look at DNA, that itself suggests some form of intelligent design.
Even in our universe there is creation, reactions. Stars are born.
Do you never stand under the stars and just wonder?
How can you be so certain there is no God?
Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:10 pm
by Kenny
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:23 am
Why only “A” first cause? Why not multiple first causes?
We have discussed this before, quite a bit.
You know why there can ONLY be One first cause and that has to do with the attributes that a first cause MUST have, remember?
It must be PURE ACTUALITY or else something can effect cause on it.
It must be Eternal and all present or else it subject to time/space.
Etc, etc.
And there can't be more than one because you would have to be able to distinguish between them, obviously, and that would mean that one of them is lacking something the other has and as such, can't be Pure Actuality.
If I remember correctly, you made a bunch of claims without providing any thing that could be considered “science” to back it up. I disagreed with your claims and explained why I disagree with them. We went back and forth for several pages and we eventually went our separate ways neither of us agreeing with the other, but some interesting and fruitful conversations exchanged.
Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:00 pm
by Kenny
Storyteller wrote: ↑Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:20 pm
It's really hard to explain Kenny. I'm still kinda figuring it out myself. Have you read jacks essay on divine simplicity?
Jack who?
Storyteller wrote: ↑Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:20 pmLook at DNA, that itself suggests some form of intelligent design.
What does a non intelligent design look like?
Storyteller wrote: ↑Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:20 pmEven in our universe there is creation, reactions. Stars are born.
Do you never stand under the stars and just wonder?
Yes. There is so much about the universe I wish I knew. I really wish I had all the answers to the Universe, but I don’t.
Storyteller wrote: ↑Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:20 pmHow can you be so certain there is no God?
As far as the God of the bible, there is too much of it that sounds unrealistic to me.
Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:03 pm
by Kenny
Philip wrote: ↑Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:36 am
Ken simply refuses to learn; doesn't want to know any truth inconvenient to his desired atheistic outlook.
You shouldn't assume that because I haven't accept everything you guys tell me that I haven't learned.
Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural
Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:45 am
by PaulSacramento
Kenny wrote: ↑Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:10 pm
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:23 am
Why only “A” first cause? Why not multiple first causes?
We have discussed this before, quite a bit.
You know why there can ONLY be One first cause and that has to do with the attributes that a first cause MUST have, remember?
It must be PURE ACTUALITY or else something can effect cause on it.
It must be Eternal and all present or else it subject to time/space.
Etc, etc.
And there can't be more than one because you would have to be able to distinguish between them, obviously, and that would mean that one of them is lacking something the other has and as such, can't be Pure Actuality.
If I remember correctly, you made a bunch of claims without providing any thing that could be considered “science” to back it up. I disagreed with your claims and explained why I disagree with them. We went back and forth for several pages and we eventually went our separate ways neither of us agreeing with the other, but some interesting and fruitful conversations exchanged.
Please refute what I posted above.
Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural
Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:35 am
by Storyteller
Kenny wrote: ↑Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:00 pm
Storyteller wrote: ↑Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:20 pm
It's really hard to explain Kenny. I'm still kinda figuring it out myself. Have you read jacks essay on divine simplicity?
Jack who?
Jac's (3501?)
Storyteller wrote: ↑Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:20 pmLook at DNA, that itself suggests some form of intelligent design.
What does a non intelligent design look like?
Idk... not thought about that one. Lemme ponder on that one
Storyteller wrote: ↑Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:20 pmEven in our universe there is creation, reactions. Stars are born.
Do you never stand under the stars and just wonder?
Yes. There is so much about the universe I wish I knew. I really wish I had all the answers to the Universe, but I don’t.
Tell me something you wish you knew
Storyteller wrote: ↑Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:20 pmHow can you be so certain there is no God?
As far as the God of the bible, there is too much of it that sounds unrealistic to me.
Does that mean that God doesnt exist then or just that God exists but not as described in the Bible?
Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural
Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:56 am
by Storyteller
Sorry about the rubbish quoting!
Ken..
You fascinate me.
I know we have chatted in pm about some of this stuff. Can we do it here?
Okay, for now forget "who" God might be, is there, or could there be a "God"
Is there a first cause?
Do we have free will?
See, i have always believed in something
As a kid i adored sunday school, i was captivated by this figure of Christ. The whole God thing didnt compute, i just thought Christ was a really cool guy. I wanted to grow up to be like him, half thinking he was a character not a real, living person.
I cant explain why i believe in God when i cant even really tell you who He is. I just know Him.
Everything happens for a reason.
My relationship with God, with this spirit, this real entity that i dont see, there are no words yet there is a constant conversation, this force, its real.
Sure, there are moments where i question it, when i think is it just delusion, coincidence? Is this it?
I see creation, i see God everywhere. I feel Him ken. In a sunset, when i look at my daughter, sat under a tree by a stream, watching tadpoles....
I suppose im trying to figure out how you cant believe.
Do you want to believe?
Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural
Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:40 pm
by Kenny
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:23 am
You know why there can ONLY be One first cause and that has to do with the attributes that a first cause MUST have, remember?
It must be PURE ACTUALITY or else something can effect cause on it.
And why can’t there be multiple eternal causes causing effect upon each other?
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:23 amIt must be Eternal and all present or else it subject to time/space.
Etc, etc.
Why can’t there be multiple that are eternal and together are all present? And what do you mean subject to time/space?
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:23 amAnd there can't be more than one because you would have to be able to distinguish between them,
What’s wrong with the ability to distinguish them?
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:23 amobviously, and that would mean that one of them is lacking something the other has and as such, can't be Pure Actuality.
And what’s wrong with that?
Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural
Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:58 pm
by RickD
Kenny wrote: ↑Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:40 pm
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:23 am
You know why there can ONLY be One first cause and that has to do with the attributes that a first cause MUST have, remember?
It must be PURE ACTUALITY or else something can effect cause on it.
And why can’t there be multiple eternal causes causing effect upon each other?
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:23 amIt must be Eternal and all present or else it subject to time/space.
Etc, etc.
Why can’t there be multiple that are eternal and together are all present? And what do you mean subject to time/space?
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:23 amAnd there can't be more than one because you would have to be able to distinguish between them,
What’s wrong with the ability to distinguish them?
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:23 amobviously, and that would mean that one of them is lacking something the other has and as such, can't be Pure Actuality.
And what’s wrong with that?
And this folks, is what we call being disingenuous.
Kenny has been told the answers to these questions, multiple times. People are patient explaining this to him, yet he still continues to pretend he doesn't know the answers.
I can't see how anyone can take him seriously anymore.
Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural
Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:00 pm
by Kenny
Storyteller wrote: ↑Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:20 pm
Storyteller wrote: ↑Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:20 pmLook at DNA, that itself suggests some form of intelligent design.
What does a non intelligent design look like?
Idk... not thought about that one. Lemme ponder on that one
Storyteller wrote: ↑Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:20 pmEven in our universe there is creation, reactions. Stars are born.
Do you never stand under the stars and just wonder?
Yes. There is so much about the universe I wish I knew. I really wish I had all the answers to the Universe, but I don’t.
Tell me something you wish you knew[/quote]
*What did Dinosaurs look like,
*What was it like on Planet Earth when it was birthing the moon, and how were things before this happened,
*What was it like here a million years ago, and what will it be like a million years from now
You know the usual stuff.
Storyteller wrote: ↑Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:20 pmHow can you be so certain there is no God?
[/quote] (Ken)As far as the God of the bible, there is too much of it that sounds unrealistic to me.[/quote]
Storyteller wrote: ↑Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:20 pmDoes that mean that God doesnt exist then or just that God exists but not as described in the Bible?
I believe Jesus existed, but was just an ordinary man whom people acclaimed deity status to, but I believe the father, and the Holy Spirit are complete fabrication; do not exist.
Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural
Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:09 pm
by Storyteller
Do you want to believe?
Forget the God of the Bible for now. Thats just details.
Are you really utterly, totally convinced that its absolutely certain there is no God?
What about free will? Morality? Emotions?
Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural
Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:50 pm
by Kenny
Storyteller wrote: ↑Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:56 am
Sorry about the rubbish quoting!
Ken..
You fascinate me.
I know we have chatted in pm about some of this stuff. Can we do it here?
Yes and thank-you.
Storyteller wrote: ↑Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:56 amOkay, for now forget "who" God might be, is there, or could there be a "God"
There is so much about the Universe that I’m not even going to pretend to know about. Could there be a being akin to what you call God? I can’t see how there could be, but just because I can’t see it doesn’t mean it isn’t possible; I’ve been wrong countless times and I’m sure I’ll be wrong many times again. So of course it’s possible, I just am convinced it is not the case.
Storyteller wrote: ↑Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:56 amIs there a first cause?
At least one first cause.
Storyteller wrote: ↑Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:56 amDo we have free will?
Yes
Storyteller wrote: ↑Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:56 amSee, i have always believed in
something
As a kid i adored sunday school, i was captivated by this figure of Christ. The whole God thing didnt compute, i just thought Christ was a really cool guy. I wanted to grow up to be like him, half thinking he was a character not a real, living person.
I cant explain why i believe in God when i cant even really tell you who He is. I just know Him.
Everything happens for a reason.
My relationship with God, with this spirit, this real entity that i dont see, there are no words yet there is a constant conversation, this force, its real.
Sure, there are moments where i question it, when i think is it just delusion, coincidence? Is this it?
I see creation, i see God everywhere. I feel Him ken. In a sunset, when i look at my daughter, sat under a tree by a stream, watching tadpoles....
Thanks for sharing.
Storyteller wrote: ↑Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:56 amI suppose im trying to figure out how you cant believe.
Do you want to believe?
I don’t want to, neither do I not want to believe; I have nothing invested in believing or not.
Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural
Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:55 pm
by Storyteller
Lemme ponder a while ken....
Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural
Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:58 pm
by Kenny
Storyteller wrote: ↑Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:09 pm
Do you want to believe?
Forget the God of the Bible for now. Thats just details.
Are you really utterly, totally convinced that its absolutely certain there is no God?
There is nothing in existence that I call God.
Storyteller wrote: ↑Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:09 pmWhat about free will? Morality? Emotions?
Freewill
Depends on how you define it, but for the most part; yeah.
Morality
I believe morality is the ability to understand the consequences of actions and how they affect me and my neighbor; and passing judgment on those actions. I'm convinced everybody does this.
E
motions
Just feelings and thoughts about what we experience
Re: Many Atheists DO Believe in the Supernatural
Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:04 pm
by RickD
Kenny wrote:
There is nothing in existence that I call God.
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
