Evidence for God from Science

Storyteller wrote: ↑Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:25 am

Nicki wrote: ↑Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:06 am Thanks, Rick and Annette - that's the risk I take posting on an open forum though. Some things have to be taken with a grain of salt. Anyway, things were no better today I'm feeling as if I haven't got very far in life, when I'm getting all upset again over the way someone's treating me at work or something (I worked with a guy 15-20 years ago whom I ended up having a lot of arguments with). It's pretty painful when I hear him talking to others, joking and so on, and when we're up the front to watch a demonstration and I can see him properly, and think of how we used to smile at each other sometimes about things. Of course I bump into him around the kitchen a bit as well. Maybe I have to give him space but it hurts a lot in the meantime.

Of course it hurts. This is a testing time for you but it wouldn't be much of a test if it wasnt hard, would it?
This guy isnt the answer Nicki.

Thanks - you're probably right. I just feel I've been through so much hurt in my life, being a sensitive person - right now I'm wishing I could cut out my heart and replace it with a tougher one. Another thing that happened in my past was, before I had that job I did a different one-year course where one of the other young women ended up not speaking to me (because I was upset that she yelled at me over nothing - my commenting on something in the newspaper) and, while I thought I'd made friends on the course, including a guy I especially liked with the same name as the one on my current course, and we exchanged some details at the end, I never heard from any of them again. So when I met the current guy I thought, OK, it's going to go better this time - I can't believe it's ended up so, so bad already and we still have most of the course to go

It didn't help that it was a rough day at the course yesterday - there was lots to do, I was finding it hard to go fast and I ended up finishing late. Also I haven't been sleeping well - sometimes it takes me a while to work out all the reasons I'm feeling crappy But I'm feeling like a pathetic, awful, useless person in general. I've tried to be pretty kind and helpful on the course - well, I didn't have to try too hard because I liked it and felt I was doing what I should be doing. Some people seemed to appreciate it somewhat, but one person doesn't seem to care about it, which puts me off; it makes me wonder if people are thinking I'm only doing it to be liked (that's definitely part of my motivation), but I want to keep trying to be good to people because it's the right thing to do.

Nicki: "Thanks - you're probably right. I just feel I've been through so much hurt in my life, being a sensitive person - right now I'm wishing I could cut out my heart and replace it with a tougher one."

Doesn't' work. I tried that. Years ago, my ex and I were in bed, we'd fought, his goodnight to me was to spit on me and he said that if he could have urinated on me he would. I remember it was that moment that I thought "that's it, you're not going to hurt me ever again" and I consciously shut him out and hardened my heart to him. Know what happened? I started becoming cold and distant, not just from him but everyone.
"sometimes it takes me a while to work out all the reasons I'm feeling crappy But I'm feeling like a pathetic, awful, useless person in general."
Feelings can be deceptive. Have you told anyone how you feel, sleep problems and low self esteem are often a sign of depression, been there.

Nicki..
Your gentleness, your kindness, your vulnerability... these are all good things. Sure, you'll get hurt, you'll get used, overlooked but when you find the right people to be around, youll flourish.
You need support, you need reminding that you're loved, valued. Appreciated for who you are. Know what? You've already got that. You. It took me nearly 50 years to figure out that it really does start from within.

Nicki, as well, we often set ourselves up by having expectations of people behaving or reacting to us in a certain way - but when the response is, instead, negative and hurtful, well, it hurts us. Feelings are immensely powerful. It's also important to realize that if people don't have your Christian values and sense of right, wrong and how to treat people, then we shouldn't unrealistically expect them to behave other than selfishly. You definitely need weekly fellowship with some mature Christian women.

As for sleep issues, have you ever been tested for sleep apnea? I have it. Do you nod off easily, just sitting on the sofa, constantly tired, even upon waking? But if it's just anxiety keeping you awake - when something is really bothering me and I can't sleep, I'll take a 25 mg. benadryl - and sometimes two (then it's "Goodnight Irene!." It's non-addictive and will put you into a really restful sleep.

Philip wrote: ↑Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:49 am Nicki, as well, we often set ourselves up by having expectations of people behaving or reacting to us in a certain way - but when the response is, instead, negative and hurtful, well, it hurts us. Feelings are immensely powerful. It's also important to realize that if people don't have your Christian values and sense of right, wrong and how to treat people, then we shouldn't unrealistically expect them to behave other than selfishly. You definitely need weekly fellowship with some mature Christian women.

As for sleep issues, have you ever been tested for sleep apnea? I have it. Do you nod off easily, just sitting on the sofa, constantly tired, even upon waking? But if it's just anxiety keeping you awake - when something is really bothering me and I can't sleep, I'll take a 25 mg. benadryl - and sometimes two (then it's "Goodnight Irene!." It's non-addictive and will put you into a really restful sleep.

Yes, you definitely have a point about people's behaviour and so on - a problem of mine though is that I always want to like and get along with everyone I know Speaking of mature women, I'm meeting up tomorrow with an older lady from church that I've been talking to, one of the pastoral care people. Joining a group again would be good though.

My problem with sleep is basically that I stay up late (that's been my habit for quite a while - I blame it on being a busy mother and enjoying the peace and quiet late in the evening while doing something enjoyable) and then when there's something I'm stressed about (nearly always some kind of relationship problem) I usually wake up too early in the morning, after 5 or 6 hours' sleep, and instead of dozing off again I remember my problem and feel anything but sleepy. Sometimes I have trouble getting to sleep at night for a similar reason as well. Even with no problems bothering me I can have trouble getting back to sleep after waking early. What's the active ingredient in Benadryl, by the way? I think around here that's the name of a cough syrup.

I'm feeling a lot better at the moment however, even though things are not going quite the way I'd like. The theory class yesterday was torturous - the guy I have the problem with was talking an awful lot; he's quite knowledgeable about cooking and was answering most of the chef's questions and adding his own bits of information in his usual jovial way, which I was finding both depressing and irritating. In the cooking class he was chatting a lot to his new bench-mates too, but that was not so bad when I could get on with my cooking and talk to the others at my bench. Towards the end I decided to talk to him - one of the others near him had left early and the other was off doing some cleaning or something, so I went over and said, 'I hate not getting along with people - it's crappy.' He said, 'Yes, well,' or something, and I thought wow, he's listening to me. I told him a couple of things that I'd been wanting to and he told me (not in the most pleasant way, but that was OK) some of the specific issues he had with me. He ended up telling me to go away and so on and I'm pretty sure a couple of people near us heard, but to me it was worth it to have some communication and to know what he'd been thinking - not that I was just a horrible or worthless person.

He succeeded in putting me off him more, though - it was as if he wasn't afraid to seem very unpleasant; I felt maybe he was showing his true colours a bit more. I had told myself before that I hadn't really known him for long and he must just not be as nice as I'd thought he might be; that was really impressed on me yesterday though. In other words I could distance myself from him some more and be less concerned about what he thought of me and about the friendship I'd lost. I get far too concerned in general about what other people think of me (more than I'd like anyway) but his unpleasantness, and some things he said about what he wanted, were making it easier to start letting go. I still felt anxious most of today but it was a lot better this evening, somehow. I'm just thanking God and feeling very happy that I'm not so unhappy or stressed - it seems unhealthy to be stressed and anxious a lot, apart from being unpleasant. I think I still have a way to go - I'm not really looking forward to the course next week and being around him again, but hoping it won't be too bad. It makes a difference being able to enjoy some things without the sadness and anxiety interfering. Anyway, thanks for listening to my personal dramas again

Nicki, the active ingredient in Benadryl diphenhydramine HCl (it's an over the counter allergy pill, but many use it to help sleep). If you can, find a generic version, as it will be somewhat cheaper.

NIcki, WHO cares what that fellow - or any fellow - thinks? And did you ever stop to think that he likely knows you are married with kids - which is likely a real redflag or turn-off to him? And if not this fellow, you're present state will make you vulnerable to this next guy who SEEMS to have qualities that you believe your spouse does not. Interesting, in your romantic notions of this guy, not once did you ever speculate whether he was a Christian. But if he is, he would know to RUN from any such situations, just as you should.

You need to pursue what can be done to help heal your marriage. Right now, it looks like you are plotting how you will eventually escape it. Again, a good CHRISTIAN counselor whom is CERTIFIED is what you both could benefit from. A good counselor will hold you BOTH accountable as you work through your issues. And it really doesn't matter who you are married to, you can wander into dark waters that require great effort to overcome. It's not too late to turn things around. And divorced spouses endure a nightmare of keeping up with their kids, custody issues, holiday times, all of that.

Have you ever sincerely sat down with your husband and shared your concerns, or told him what you really need that you're not currently receiving from him?

While i don't disagree with what philip has posted, my experience of counselling (from a Christian counsellor) wasn't helpful. In fact, it made things worse, possibly because my ex wouldn't accept any of the blame.
Since splitting up, despite it being a really bad situation at the time, we get on so much better. Our daughter is happy, my ex and i are civil, bordering on friends, and i honestly believe this is what was meant to be.

Nicki, can you talk to your husband like philip says? My ex and i were both desperately unhappy, in ourselves and our relationship. We tried to make it work, we really did but in the end we were just toxic for each other. At least find out what your husband thinks and feels?

Not all Christian counselors are A) qualified / certified, and B) not all of them are good. And if the spouse is not ALSO a Christian, well, they'll not likely respect their advice. However, a good and qualified Christian counselor will probably be more likely to want to help you work your way back into a healthy marriage - and at least not give you advice contrary to Biblical principles. Plus, individual bad experiences, while anecdotal, aren't particularly useful, as every couple's dynamics are different. One has to ask themself, do they want to pursue what GOD wants, or only what they want, for the future of their marriage. And I'm not saying that no Christian should ever pursue divorce - my brother and my sister are Christians who divorced for sound reasons. But I am saying, for most, it shouldn't be their first desire or pursuit. And unless things are dangerous, irretrievably broken, or there has been ongoing adultery, then there still hope. God can do amazing things using a top-notch Christian mediator alongside TWO spouses who would BOTH like to heal their marriage.

BTW, my SIL is a licensed Christian family counselor. She says that while she operates on Godly principles, she rarely, blatantly, inserts Christian teachings into their conversations - unless it comes up as relevant. One reason for this is, she's licensed by the state, and so she's always walking a fine line - particularly as she has to be careful about getting sued over something which might be construed as "religious advice" that someone asserts to be unprofessional / unethical and might use against her as legal ammo if things go sour between the two parties. She says, typically, one spouse forced the other to go to counseling against their wishes, and that the one that desires the counseling often expects her to "fix" the other one. But she doesn't operate like that. And the worst thing in the world is for a counselor to take sides or favor one spouse over the other.

"One has to ask themself, do they want to pursue what GOD wants, or only what they want, for the future of their marriage"

This is still something i ask myself.
With hindsight, we made so many mistakes and we were together for all the wrong reasons. We were both wounded, deeply wounded creatures. I think instead of healing our wounds we made them worse. We bonded over the fact we felt like misfits and neither of us really thought about or talked about what we wanted from life, what we thought, all the important stuff, it was always where we'd get the next beer or what adventure we'd go on. We were both running away...
I learnt stuff from this, that i could only have learnt from it all happening like it did. Same as my ex. It has, ultimately, made us better people. Our biggest fear was the effect it would have on our daughter, she has handled it brilliantly, she's thriving and is happy.

I know that our marraige ending was right for us and we are all happier but there was, and is, a cost.

I don't regret how my life is now but i ask myself, a lot, what i could have or would have done differently. I'm not sure there would have been a different outcome.

Philip wrote: ↑Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:08 am Nicki, the active ingredient in Benadryl diphenhydramine HCl (it's an over the counter allergy pill, but many use it to help sleep). If you can, find a generic version, as it will be somewhat cheaper.

NIcki, WHO cares what that fellow - or any fellow - thinks? And did you ever stop to think that he likely knows you are married with kids - which is likely a real redflag or turn-off to him? And if not this fellow, you're present state will make you vulnerable to this next guy who SEEMS to have qualities that you believe your spouse does not. Interesting, in your romantic notions of this guy, not once did you ever speculate whether he was a Christian. But if he is, he would know to RUN from any such situations, just as you should.

You need to pursue what can be done to help heal your marriage. Right now, it looks like you are plotting how you will eventually escape it. Again, a good CHRISTIAN counselor whom is CERTIFIED is what you both could benefit from. A good counselor will hold you BOTH accountable as you work through your issues. And it really doesn't matter who you are married to, you can wander into dark waters that require great effort to overcome. It's not too late to turn things around. And divorced spouses endure a nightmare of keeping up with their kids, custody issues, holiday times, all of that.

Have you ever sincerely sat down with your husband and shared your concerns, or told him what you really need that you're not currently receiving from him?

Yes, he definitely knows I'm married with kids, but why would that be a turn-off from being friendly? I think the only thing he really cares about, however, is that he's happy with his partner and doesn't want to get romantically involved with anyone else. He told me the other day he had no feelings, at all (for me, he meant), which put it pretty clearly. I tend to assume people aren't Christians unless otherwise informed, because most people aren't, and some things about him have kept me thinking he's not - like having a partner he's not married to.

I'd like to not care what he thinks but that's just not me; I'm thinking I must be a very relational person when how I get along with others affects me more that anything. As an example, I was talking to one of the other guys on the course (the one I've been the next most friendly with) after our restaurant session last night - he told me everyone saw that discussion the other day, when the guy ended up loudly telling me to go away and so on, which made me groan. I said that it had been a good experience anyway - that I was feeling better at least - then he said something about not being able to give me any help or advice, which gave me the dismaying feeling that he didn't want to talk to me about it. He then said I could talk to him about it anytime anyway, but that sinking feeling stuck with me and I started feeling negative about it all again. Of course the idea of the whole class hearing the end of the other discussion wasn't great either.

I've tried to sit down many times in the past with my husband and talk about my then-current concerns (he would usually be looking at the TV) but that normally resulted in him getting angry at me, often for bringing up the most recent incident again. Most incidents these days involve other people rather than me, but now I try to just say something briefly and then disassociate myself from it and try to forget about it - it's not worth the argument. What do I need from him? To discuss any problems reasonably and caringly, like an adult, first and foremost, but I've been telling him that for 15 years. At least he has improved somewhat but there are still nasty incidents when everything feels out of control. Another thing about him is I think he's borderline for having a learning disability or something, but what can he do about that? It just makes it frustrating when I'd like to be with someone who's roughly an intellectual equal.

I'm really in a bad place at the moment. I'm going to see my counsellor but she's not free at a good time for me for another two weeks. I'm wondering if I need to see the doctor and go on some medication as well. I've never thought I was prone to depression though because when I feel really down it's always tied to circumstances - not getting along with people, usually. I know there's something really wrong with me though, that I get into situations like the one I'm in and that I get so upset about relationship problems, and even thinking someone might not care about me as much as I'd thought. I'm just feeling as if everything is absolutely sh*t. The course I'm doing is tough enough at times without this bad relationship as well; so far the challenges have been mainly a distraction from the personal issue but yesterday I was feeling so low - especially when I got home, however. Theory class was a bit better last week - I talked at least as much as him, answering questions and so on, and then I was having a bit of fun with some of the others in the practical session, but yesterday wasn't so good.

Just to be clear, when I said in my last post he didn't want to get romantically involved with anyone else, I don't either, but he's gone to an extreme - he obviously doesn't care about getting along with me. I try to tell myself he's not really worth worrying about, that although he puts on a charming exterior (still being friendly with everyone else in the class) he seems to be quite hard-hearted, but that's not doing much for my underlying mood - I still feel very low about being rejected.

Nicki,

If I had to make an educated guess, I'd say it's hormonal.

Rick is probably right, that there is a powerful hormonal element to this. I've experienced this with my wife. Often, she'd just wake up anxiety ridden or upset over things I pay no attention to. I will say that eating a healthy diet and getting at least 7 to 8 hours of sleep is hugely important.

We just can't be controlled by our feelings - it's destructive. Also, when someone offends us, we don't always need to address them or try to "make everything alright" - because often, especially with immature people, that simply isn't possible. And if we, in whatever insecurity, respond to another person in ways that reveal our insecurity, they might well begin to view you as a person with issues. And thus their RESPONSE to their awareness of your insecurities will likely feed and grow them. And many simply love to feel superior to or have some measure of power over another person (feeds their ego). You simply cannot hope to always smooth out things with those who anger or hurt you, so as to find healing or closure. Because often, they'll not respond in a positive way that will put you at ease - and perhaps they'll only make you feel worse - which will spiral the whole thing. Don't give other people that kind of power over you! And a big part of successfully doing that is knowing who you are IN CHRIST - as opposed to seeking our self worth in how others respond to us.

When you are feeling insecure, you can either feed it and grow it, OR you can do things that help diminish it, and often to the point that it will eventually subside and disappear. Whenever you are feeling insecure about a person or situation - DO NOT SHOW IT!!! Act confident, even if you don't feel it. Because when you carry yourself as a confident person, that is how people will perceive you - which is also how they will tend to interact and respond to you - as they see you as being a confident person. And when we at least appear confident, and THAT is people's perception of and response to you, then their response will also tend to build and reinforce true confidence in yourself - even when you aren't particularly feeling it.

Don't ever seem needy and insecure to people - because their negative or immature response will often FEED your insecurities. Also, with people who make you feel insecure - minimize your proximity to them. And NEVER give them the sense that how they respond to you matters so much to you that it's impacting your self worth. And you can do this without being cold and unfriendly, but with a more outwardly neutral response to people you see as being problematic for you. With such people, I tend to let them come to me (if they desire to), as opposed to me approaching them. That doesn't mean I appear to avoid them; it just means I have psychologically placed them in neutral territory that I'm mostly uninterested in. Unfortunately, this is how we have to deal with certain people that have the potential to impact us negatively.

Philip wrote: ↑Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:06 am Rick is probably right, that there is a powerful hormonal element to this. I've experienced this with my wife. Often, she'd just wake up anxiety ridden or upset over things I pay no attention to. I will say that eating a healthy diet and getting at least 7 to 8 hours of sleep is hugely important.

We just can't be controlled by our feelings - it's destructive. Also, when someone offends us, we don't always need to address them or try to "make everything alright" - because often, especially with immature people, that simply isn't possible. And if we, in whatever insecurity, respond to another person in ways that reveal our insecurity, they might well begin to view you as a person with issues. And thus their RESPONSE to their awareness of your insecurities will likely feed and grown them. And many simply love to feel superior to or have some measure of power over another person (feeds their ego). You simply cannot hope to always smooth out things with those who anger or hurt you, so as to find healing or closure. Because often, they'll not respond in a positive way that will put you at ease - and perhaps they'll only make you feel worse - which will spiral the whole thing. Don't give other people that kind of power over you! And a big part of successfully doing that is knowing who you are IN CHRIST - as opposed to seeking our self worth in how others respond to us.

When you are feeling insecure, you can either feed it and grow it, OR you can do things that help diminish it, and often to the point that it will eventually subside and disappear. Whenever you are feeling insecure about a person or situation - DO NOT SHOW IT!!! Act confident, even if you don't feel it. Because when you carry yourself as a confident person, that is how people will perceive you - which is also how they will tend to interact and respond to you - as they see you as being a confident person. And when we at least appear confident, and THAT is people's perception of and response to you, then their response will also tend to build and reinforce true confidence in yourself - even when you aren't particularly feeling it.

Don't ever seem needy and insecure to people - because their negative or immature response will often FEED your insecurities. Also, with people who make you feel insecure - minimize your proximity to them. And NEVER give them the sense that how they respond to you matters so much to you that it's impacting your self worth. And you can do this without being cold and unfriendly, but with a more outwardly neutral response to people you see as being problematic for you. With such people, I tend to let them come to me (if they desire to), as opposed to me approaching them. That doesn't mean I appear to avoid them; it just means I have psychologically placed them in neutral territory that I'm mostly uninterested in. Unfortunately, this is how we have to deal with certain people that have the potential to impact us negatively.

Thanks, buddy. Could it be hormonal though when I've basically been like this all the time for as long as I can remember? I know what you mean about acting confident and as if you don't care, but I don't like doing that much, to be honest. Honesty actually has something to do with it - wanting to be straight and wanting the other person to know how I feel even if they could use that against me; at least I'd feel I was the bigger person then. I do feel a certain confidence most of the time in our practical classes because we're usually busy and I have other people to talk to, so I don't have to look at the guy much and his voice doesn't carry to me too loudly It does bother me though that we can both be friendly with everyone else there but not with each other.

Well, theory class was trash yesterday - I moved down the back of the room so I didn't have to hear him so well. He'd been talking away to a couple of guys up the front, mainly about the chef they have for their restaurant session who's a bit of a bully by the sound of it, but he actually said to them, while standing near me, 'You've known me for half a year; you know it takes a lot to make me angry and have to say something.' I felt By the time I moved he was saying he'd better do some work and then didn't talk much more. It was better being down the back with a couple of the girls though.

The practical session was really busy and I ended up feeling a bit better, but wanting to say something to him - I thought I couldn't make things any worse anyway. He was sweeping the floor at the end and I said 'thank you', when he swept under my bench, because I felt like it. Outside as he was leaving I intercepted him and said, 'I really want to make up with you - it's a bit sh*t' (I don't swear much but it I use it to show strong feelings about things sometimes - not swearing *at* people). He kept walking but I said, 'I'm not a bad person.' I can walk faster than him (he's not very tall) so I caught up and just walked alongside him till he turned to go into the men's room and I said, 'bye then.' Well, at least he didn't tell me to go away or anything I felt as if I'd tried at least; reiterated to him that I did want to get along, but implied that I think it would take more than just gradually being more friendly to each other - 'making up'. I think asserting that I wasn't a bad person was implying he was being unreasonable too. Also I felt a bit the bigger person talking reasonably nicely to him while he scurried along and ignored me - he might well have seen it just as me bothering him though, but too bad. So I've felt a bit better overall since then - I haven't been crying a lot anyway, like on Monday night and yesterday morning

Well, at least when he turned to go into the men's room, you didn't open the door and follow in right after him.

He probably loves the fact you're pursuing him, gets a thrill from trying to make you feel more and more awkward. It does sound very socially awkward the situation, don't you think? Nothing wrong with that. Lots of things end up awkward in life, relationships, etc.

I reckon just start ignoring him, stone wall him, maybe even roll your eyes at him when he makes stupid comments. He'll likely end up missing your attention, which he's no doubt gossiped about to others. You've probably given him a big heads-well *ahem*. So since that's not working, best thing you can do, really, is act as if you no longer give a damn...

The above of course is ignoring the fact you do have a partner, and it seems strange as hell you do care in the first place so much about another guy. But then, everyone is different with their feelings and like. If I gave a woman the same attention it sounds like you've giving him, honestly, it'd be because I'm probably wanting something more to happen.

Just start giving him the silent treatment. Reverse psychology type thing. Act as if you no longer care. He's made it into all a game by the sounds of it, at your expense, so there's nothing to be gained continuing to shower him with your attention. Don't you think?

Nicki, being honest does NOT mean we broadcast all of our thoughts to immature people who don't have such values. Don't set yourself up. It's almost as if you don't work things out to where things are relaxed and normal with the guy, that you'll otherwise be miserable and upset. And THAT is YOU giving another human power over you. So, A) Why would you want to do that - particularly knowing the negative results and impact upon yourself, and B) Why would you care so much about some guy who isn't your husband? It's like you want what you don't have, and even if you know it's totally forbidden to you. I can only shudder to think if the fellow's reaction instead had been all googly eyed and flirty! And knowing how wrong pursuit of even "harmless" flirting is, you should be glad that his reaction hasn't sucked you into something disastrous. Really, it's likely a blessing his response has been as it is - perhaps a warning God has allowed you - for both now and future situations.