Evidence for God from Science

UsagiTsukino wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:58 pm what about prehistoric times. Wouldn't there be any murders or is it just to dumb to question certain things?

I hope its not dumb because I question things all the time

The short and easy answer is we just can't know for sure.
But I don't like short easy answers, so here are some of my thoughts.

I'm sure killing occurred prior to Adam and Eve, but I don't think 'murder' existed before Adam and Eve.
Murder is "the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another."
The key word here is "unlawful".

If mankind did not "know good and evil" prior to the time of Adam and Eve, then by definition it would be impossible for pre-Adamic humans to engage in any "unlawful" behavior.
In Romans 5:13 Paul makes an intriguing statement that I keep coming back to when I mull over this particular topic.
"sin is not imputed when there is no law."

my .02

DB, do you think that when Adam and Eve partook of the tree's forbidden fruit, that they realized it would be a sin / that they were in the process of sinning - given that they didn't yet know good from evil? They certainly knew they were disobeying God's command concerning the tree. And willful disobedience of God IS a sin. Of course, their motive was sinful, per what they had been tempted to desire.

Philip wrote: ↑Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:12 pm DB, do you think that when Adam and Eve partook of the tree's forbidden fruit, that they realized it would be a sin / that they were in the process of sinning - given that they didn't yet know good from evil? They certainly knew they were disobeying God's command concerning the tree. And willful disobedience of God IS a sin. Of course, their motive was sinful, per what they had been tempted to desire.

We sin when...
1. We disobey God
2. We know to do good and don't do it, also known as disobeying the law written in our hearts. I believe this second type of sin is directly related to the "knowledge of good and evil"

However, even without knowledge of good and evil, I would say that disobeying God is sin... end of story.
Because when we disobey God we are making ourselves out to be our own god when we place our own will above God's will.

My understanding of Genesis 3 is that Adam and Eve came to "know good and evil" after they had directly disobeyed God and sinned.

Did I answer your question?

DB: We sin when...

2. We know to do good and don't do it, also known as disobeying the law written in our hearts. I believe this second type of sin is directly related to the "knowledge of good and evil"

Yes, Romans 2.

DB: However, even without knowledge of good and evil, I would say that disobeying God is sin... end of story.

Exactly! Adam and Eve KNEW - and BEFORE they had partaken of the fruit - that they were sinning - KNEW they were disobeying God when they did so.

DB: Did I answer your question?

It was more of seeing where you were coming from on this. Because although Adam and Eve didn't previously have knowledge of good and evil, they nonetheless DID know they were disobeying Him - which is obviously sin. Point being, their lack of having prior knowledge of good and evil didn't prevent them from sinning.

Philip wrote: ↑Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:13 pm Because although Adam and Eve didn't previously have knowledge of good and evil, they nonetheless DID know they were disobeying Him - which is obviously sin. Point being, their lack of having prior knowledge of good and evil didn't prevent them from sinning.

Agreed...
Going back to Paul's Romans 5:13 principle.
"sin is not imputed when there is no law."

"law" would include
- God's law or commands
and/or
- the law written in our hearts ("the knowledge of good and evil")

So in the case of Adam and Eve, even though they did not yet have the "knowledge of good and evil" they did have a "law" or command from God. And according to the Genesis 3 narrative it was after they sinned and disobeyed God that "their eyes were opened" to the "knowledge of good and evil".

Interesting discussion fella's. I've read through this and would just like to give my thoughts on this subject. One reason why I'm glad I believe the Gap Theory is because when it comes to issues like this "pre-Adamite" races the Gap theory makes the most sense to me. Now I have researched every creation interpretation that I know about and I believe the Gap Theory answers these types of questions the best and makes the most sense from not only a bible perspective but also a book of nature sense too. You see when we have the correct biblical interpretation both the book of life the bible and the book of nature will line up,and when we don't have the correct interpretation they will be out of sync.

The first thing that I realized is that we have a tendency to think of just one world but if and when we do this it is gonna cause scripture problems however not when we think of two different worlds with a gap between them,then there is no problem with pre-Adamite races. One thing we need to realize is that all of the hominids including neanderthal that existed prior to man are all physically different than man and they are not DNA related either. I mean sure scientists do believe humans and neanderthals bread with each other but there are other biblical answers for thinking this that they don't consider.However not if you hold to the Sethite view as it relates to angels and the sons of God. If you hold to the Sethite view you're left out in the cold dealing with this issue imo.I'll give you a hint - In the bible everytime angels appeared to man they were men or looked like men, they even ate with men, and a third of the angels rebelled against God.

But looking at this from a Gap Theory perspective is really the best way to go imo because there was a former world different than this world that existed prior to this world we now live in and pre-Adamite races lived in that world.I don't know if we can say there was murder in it but there was death in it.That world perished though and all life died until the restoration and God made this world and created man in his image for this world. See I think you realize like me that the Gap Theory answers this best and makes the most sense. We have to get out of this mindset of only one world existing whether we are talking 6000 years or 4.6 billion years because there really is no evidence in the fossil record for just one world because as we go through the fossil record including the hominids we find different kind of life than the life we have in this world.

ACB: ... however not when we think of two different worlds with a gap between them,then there is no problem with pre-Adamite races.

Except for the glaring fact that no prophet, Christ or apostle ever clearly referenced or claimed such - which is a massive problem for the view! One has to read that assumed view into the text. And for such an unbelievable catastrophe, it is inconceivable that such is not clearly / obviously spoken of in Scripture, nor is any reason ever given for an event of such magnitude. So GAPists have to build an entire theological belief that Scripture does not clearly support or explain. But that's just one of it's problems. It's a view built in an attempt to reconcile scientific findings with Scripture, but unlike Day / Age, it has no convincing evidences. And Abe, you have explained your GAP views in minutia, but not one person on this forum has ever considered it possible.

Philip wrote: ↑Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:55 pm

ACB: ... however not when we think of two different worlds with a gap between them,then there is no problem with pre-Adamite races.

Except for the glaring fact that no prophet, Christ or apostle ever clearly referenced or claimed such - which is a massive problem for the view! One has to read that assumed view into the text. And for such an unbelievable catastrophe, it is inconceivable that such is not clearly / obviously spoken of in Scripture, nor is any reason ever given for an event of such magnitude. So GAPists have to build an entire theological belief that Scripture doe not clearly support or explain. But that's just one of it's problems. It's a view built in an attempt to reconcile scientific findings with Scripture, but unlike Day / Age, it has no convincing evidences. And Abe, you have explained your GAP views in minutia, but not one person on this forum has ever considered it possible.

Yeah I know you feel that way but it is by revelation of God's word that we understand it to be true. I mean we believe in the trinity and yet nowhere in the bible is trinity mentioned and it is by revelation of God's word that we know it is true.It is the same for Gappists.As far as building an entire theological belief to reconcile scientific findings is just not so from a historical view.As the scientific finding of the 1700's were realized certian theologians realized the scientific findings confirmed the Gap Theory true and they revived it trying to show how. And the scientific findings still confirm it even today just as they realized way back then. But the Gap Theory had been round long before then.The Gap Theory is not as popular as it once was today and people just don't know about it.It is a hidden Gem.

There is still no evidence in the fossil record for just one world and I stand behind this.Although a case can be made that certian life was in both worlds the vast amount of evidence will reveal two different worlds and not just one. You may choose to believe a certian interpretation but the real evidence is just not there for one world.The evidence will reveal two different worlds if we go through it.

On one side we have young earth creationists cramming everything into Noah's flood eventhough there is different kind of life we find in the fossil record such as trilobites,dinosaurs,sabre teeth cats,wooly mammoths,Mastadon,hominids,etc.In this world we have crabs,lobsters,alligators,crocodiles,lions,tigers,elephants and humans. Two different worlds that they make into one.
Then on the other side we have evolutionists blending evolution imagination into the fossil record which causes them to see only one world but the evidence is just not there for one world.But they are locked into a never ending battle to prove the other one wrong eventhough they both are pushing for just one world and the only difference is time.

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:00 pm There is still no evidence in the fossil record for just one world and I stand behind this.Although a case can be made that certian life was in both worlds the vast amount of evidence will reveal two different worlds and not just one. You may choose to believe a certian interpretation but the real evidence is just not there for one world.The evidence will reveal two different worlds if we go through it.

We've already gone through the evidence in detail... multiple times.
And there is no scientific or Scriptural evidence to support the Gap Theory.
In fact just the opposite is true. The Gap theory is actually directly contradicted by both science and Scripture.

Maybe someone can just post a link to previous discussions in case anyone is interested in the scientific and Scriptural problems with the Gap Theory that are already well documented in the discussion boards here.

Here's just one thread that shows how the gap theory isn't biblical.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=41735

Abel: I mean we believe in the trinity and yet nowhere in the bible is trinity mentioned and it is by revelation of God's word that we know it is true. It is the same for Gappists.

Abel, are you serious???!!! ONLY by revelation??? The Trinity is referenced all over the Bible. And CLEARLY so!

The Trinity referenced across the Old Testament:

Who has ascended into heaven and descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has wrapped the waters in His garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name or His Son's name? Surely you know! (Proverbs 30:4)

Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse, And a branch from his roots will bear fruit. And the Spirit of the LORD will rest on Him, The spirit of wisdom and understanding, The spirit of counsel and strength, The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD. (Isaiah 11:1-2)

"Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations. (Isaiah 42:1)

"Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit." (Isaiah 48:16)

The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me, Because the LORD has anointed Me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent Me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives, And freedom to prisoners; (Isaiah 61:1)

In all their affliction He was afflicted, And the angel of His presence saved them; In His love and in His mercy He redeemed them; And He lifted them and carried them all the days of old. But they rebelled And grieved His Holy Spirit; Therefore, He turned Himself to become their enemy, He fought against them. (Isaiah 63:9-10)

Not only is the plurality of God found in the Old Testament, but the members of the triunity are also defined. Several Old Testament verses tell us that God is our Father:

"Do you thus repay the LORD, O foolish and unwise people? Is not He your Father who has bought you? He has made you and established you. (Deuteronomy 32:6)
"He will cry to Me, 'Thou art my Father, My God, and the rock of my salvation.' (Psalm 89:26)
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6)
For Thou art our Father, though Abraham does not know us, And Israel does not recognize us. Thou, O LORD, art our Father, Our Redeemer from of old is Thy name. (Isaiah 63:16)
But now, O LORD, Thou art our Father, We are the clay, and Thou our potter; And all of us are the work of Thy hand. (Isaiah 64:8)
"Have you not just now called to Me, 'My Father, Thou art the friend of my youth? (Jeremiah 3:4)
"Then I said, 'How I would set you among My sons, And give you a pleasant land, The most beautiful inheritance of the nations!' And I said, 'You shall call Me, My Father, And not turn away from following Me.' (Jeremiah 3:19)


That God is the Son is also found in the Old Testament:

"I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, 'Thou art My Son, Today I have begotten Thee. (Psalm 2:7)
Do homage to the Son, lest He become angry, and you perish in the way, For His wrath may soon be kindled. How blessed are all who take refuge in Him! (Psalm 2:12)
Who has ascended into heaven and descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has wrapped the waters in His garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name or His Son's name? Surely you know! (Proverbs 30:4)
"I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. "And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations, and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed. (Daniel 7:13-14)

God the Holy Spirit across the Old Testament:

Genesis 1:2 1 Samuel 11:6 Psalm 106:33 Ezekiel 3:24
Genesis 6:3 1 Samuel 16:13 Psalm 139:7 Ezekiel 8:3
Exodus 31:3 1 Samuel 16:14 Psalm 143:10 Ezekiel 11:1
Exodus 35:31 1 Samuel 19:20 Isaiah 11:2 Ezekiel 11:5
Numbers 11:17 1 Samuel 19:23 Isaiah 30:1 Ezekiel 11:24
Numbers 11:25 2 Samuel 23:2 Isaiah 32:15 Ezekiel 36:27
Numbers 11:26 1 Kings 18:12 Isaiah 34:16 Ezekiel 37:1
Numbers 11:29 1 Kings 22:24 Isaiah 40:13 Ezekiel 37:14
Numbers 24:2 2 Kings 2:16 Isaiah 42:1 Ezekiel 39:29
Numbers 27:18 1 Chronicles 12:18 Isaiah 44:3 Ezekiel 43:5
Judges 3:10 2 Chronicles 15:1 Isaiah 48:16 Joel 2:28
Judges 6:34 2 Chronicles 18:23 Isaiah 59:21 Joel 2:29
Judges 11:29 2 Chronicles 20:14 Isaiah 61:1 Micah 2:7
Judges 13:25 2 Chronicles 24:20 Isaiah 63:10 Micah 3:8
Judges 14:6 Nehemiah 9:20 Isaiah 63:11 Haggai 2:5
Judges 14:19 Nehemiah 9:30 Isaiah 63:14 Zechariah 4:6
Judges 15:14 Job 33:4 Ezekiel 2:2 Zechariah 7:12
1 Samuel 10:6 Psalm 51:11 Ezekiel 3:12 Zechariah 12:10
1 Samuel 10:10 Psalm 104:30 Ezekiel 3:14 Malachi 2:15

* Above listings compiled by Rich Deem

OK, Abe, now you list the verses that CLEARLY support GAP Theory!

Philip wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:13 am OK, Abe, now you list the verses that clearly support GAP Theory!

Please don't ask him to do this. All the verses he's posted supposedly supporting the Gap theory, have already been refuted.

Rick: Please don't ask him to do this. All the verses he's posted supposedly supporting the Gap theory, have already been refuted.

My point is, the key word - that all of those verses about the Trinity "CLEARLY" reveal - without any supposed revelations or reading it into the texts. NO, Abe, we know the verses you've used. But unless you have some that clearly reveal this, then that's my point - a massive amount of verses obvious in their support of a theological belief, though not actually using a word (Trinity) vs. ones you assert that have no reference whatsoever to GT.