Jesus was the angel Michael!

August · Post by **August** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:54 pm

However, I know how to rebuke each one.

OK, off you go. Please quote the Scripture, original language, as well as the theological and historical sources of your rebukes.

John 10:30; John 10:38; John 12:45; John 14:7-10; John 17:10, John 14:16; John 15:26, Proverbs 30:4; Matthew 11:27, Isaiah 40:28; John 1:3; Col. 1:16, Neh. 9:6; Col. 1:17; Hebrews 1:3, Genesis 17:1; Genesis 32:24-30; Genesis 48:15-16; Judges 6:22-24; Judges 13:21-22; Job 19:25-27; Hosea 12:3-5, Genesis 1:1; Exodus 23:20-21; Numbers 21:6; Psalm 24:10; Psalm 45:6-7; Psalm 102:1-14; Psalm 102:24-27; Psalm 110:1; Isaiah 6:1; Isaiah 7:14; Isaiah 8:13-14; Isaiah 9:6; Isaiah 40:3; Isaiah 40:9-10; Malachi 3:1; Matthew 1:23; Matthew 3:3; Matthew 8:29; Matthew 9:6; Matthew 11:10; Matthew 22:43-45; Matthew 28:17-18; Mark 5:6-7; Luke 4:12; Luke 4:33-34; Luke 8:28; Luke 9:43-44; John 1:1-2; John 5:17-18; John 5:21-23; John 10:30-33; John 12:41; John 12:45; John 20:28; Acts 7:37-39; Acts 20:28; Romans 1:7; Romans 9:5; 1 Cor. 1:3; 1 Cor. 2:8; 1 Cor. 8:6; 1 Cor. 10:9; 1 Cor. 15:47; 2 Cor. 1:2; Galatians 1:1; Galatians 1:3; Ephes. 1:2; Ephes. 6:23-24; Phil. 1:2; Phil. 2:5-11; Col. 1:2; 1 Thes. 1:1; 1 Thes. 3:11; 2 Thes. 1:1-2; 2 Thes. 2:16-17; 1 Tim. 3:16; 2 Tim. 1:2; Titus 2:13; Hebrews 1:8; Hebrews 1:10; 1 Peter 2:8; 1 John 5:20

Felgar · Post by **Felgar** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 7:31 am

Mastermind wrote:
Jesus did have something to gain. He would be fullfilling pride. Basically, Satan said "Jesus is not the Son of God, if He is, He can prove it by jumping off a building. If He is the Son of God, He'll be saved by angels." Jesus would be offering proof to an "unbeliever", which would bring Jesus pride that He disproved a disbeliever. Satan was tempting Jesus using pride.
How does one fulfill pride if he does another's bidding?

It's boasting, plain and simple. The temptation to boast is part of human nature, wouldn't you say?

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 10:14 am

No, that still doesn't sound right to me.

voicingmaster · Post by **voicingmaster** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 2:44 pm

Mastermind wrote:
Jesus did have something to gain. He would be fullfilling pride. Basically, Satan said "Jesus is not the Son of God, if He is, He can prove it by jumping off a building. If He is the Son of God, He'll be saved by angels." Jesus would be offering proof to an "unbeliever", which would bring Jesus pride that He disproved a disbeliever. Satan was tempting Jesus using pride.
How does one fulfill pride if he does another's bidding?

Feldar had it right. It's like boasting. Satan was intimidating Jesus into doing the second temptation.

No, it's not, at least, not according to the Trinity. If the Trinity were true, Jesus's will and the Father's will are one and the same. Thus, if Jesus willed the followers to be fused, it would be stated in the prophesy of the end times that all Christians will be fused together. However, there is no such prophesy.
He wasn't talking to all of his followers, just the apostles. And remember, the trinity may be one God, but they are still separate persons. They don't necessarily need to "fuse".

According to the Trinity, each one is God, meaning they all have the same will. Meaning, if the apostles were to become like that, they would all have the same will, and thus would be different manifestations of the same person.

Speaking of Jesus's will and the Father's will, how could Jesus pray to God, asking God to find another way to save humanity that didn't involve a horrible death, if they were one and the same? Especially since, according to the Trinity, Jesus becomes equal with God upon death. Why would He want to stay subordinate for a few more decades when He could become an equal?
Where does this prayer occur?

Matthew 26:39 and recontinues in Matthew 26:42. That pretty much proves they don't have the same will.

Furthermore, how could God die for our sins, when in the Bible it states that God is immortal?
Jesus never died the way you make it out to be. His body was killed, which means absolutely nothing. Again, we're not a body. We are spirits. So is God. Destruction of the body means nothing.

No, you are a soul, and have a spirit. The human spirit has a strong connection to the soul. Your soul is your earthly body, this is stated in Genesis. Your spirit can't remain concious after the soul is dead (which is stated in the OT, if you don't believe me, I can look it up and give a citation of where it is), otherwise there would be no point in the resurrection in the end times. Destruction of this body means more than you think.

Anyways, the point is is that Jesus died. If He was simply "shedding His body" then where is the sacrifice? Also, according to you, where did He spend those three days between His death and resurrection?

And August, that's a lot of scripture, I don't have time to go through all that now. I'll try to get to that over the weekend.

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:10 pm

Feldar had it right. It's like boasting. Satan was intimidating Jesus into doing the second temptation.

I highly doubt Satan had any authority to "intimidate" Jesus.

According to the Trinity, each one is God, meaning they all have the same will. Meaning, if the apostles were to become like that, they would all have the same will, and thus would be different manifestations of the same person.

No, different person of the same... err, I guess there's no name for it.

Speaking of Jesus's will and the Father's will, how could Jesus pray to God, asking God to find another way to save humanity that didn't involve a horrible death, if they were one and the same? Especially since, according to the Trinity, Jesus becomes equal with God upon death. Why would He want to stay subordinate for a few more decades when He could become an equal?
Where does this prayer occur?

Matthew 26:39 and recontinues in Matthew 26:42. That pretty much proves they don't have the same will.

No, Jesus was demonstrating one of the virtues required of being sinless(and one everybody, including me, seems to lack today): modesty. Jesus had to remain sinless, and the sacrifice becomes far more effective if Jesus does not boast of it.

No, you are a soul, and have a spirit. The human spirit has a strong connection to the soul. Your soul is your earthly body, this is stated in Genesis. Your spirit can't remain concious after the soul is dead (which is stated in the OT, if you don't believe me, I can look it up and give a citation of where it is), otherwise there would be no point in the resurrection in the end times. Destruction of this body means more than you think.

Please get me the verses because this contradicts Jesus's promise to one of the thieves that after they die the thief will join Him in Heaven.

Anyways, the point is is that Jesus died. If He was simply "shedding His body" then where is the sacrifice?

How about I crucify you so you can feel the sacrifice on your own skin?

Also, according to you, where did He spend those three days between His death and resurrection?

I believe He spent it banshing Satan's brains out, but I'm not sure. I'll get back to you on this after I finish reading the gospels(probably after april because I have exams coming).

voicingmaster · Post by **voicingmaster** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:28 pm

Mastermind wrote:
Feldar had it right. It's like boasting. Satan was intimidating Jesus into doing the second temptation.
I highly doubt Satan had any authority to "intimidate" Jesus.

Well, he did fail. The point is, that is what Satan was trying to do. It is human nature, which is what Jesus had, to live up to a boast. Satan knew that was human nature, and thus tried to play on that to make Jesus fall.

Speaking of Jesus's will and the Father's will, how could Jesus pray to God, asking God to find another way to save humanity that didn't involve a horrible death, if they were one and the same? Especially since, according to the Trinity, Jesus becomes equal with God upon death. Why would He want to stay subordinate for a few more decades when He could become an equal?
Where does this prayer occur?

Matthew 26:39 and recontinues in Matthew 26:42. That pretty much proves they don't have the same will.
No, Jesus was demonstrating one of the virtues required of being sinless(and one everybody, including me, seems to lack today): modesty. Jesus had to remain sinless, and the sacrifice becomes far more effective if Jesus does not boast of it.

How on earth does that prove His modesty? He was praying not to die, how is that in anyway modesty?

No, you are a soul, and have a spirit. The human spirit has a strong connection to the soul. Your soul is your earthly body, this is stated in Genesis. Your spirit can't remain concious after the soul is dead (which is stated in the OT, if you don't believe me, I can look it up and give a citation of where it is), otherwise there would be no point in the resurrection in the end times. Destruction of this body means more than you think.
Please get me the verses because this contradicts Jesus's promise to one of the thieves that after they die the thief will join Him in Heaven.

Eccl. 9:5 states that while the living are consious of that they will die, the dead are consious of nothing at all. As for your flesh and bone are your soul Genesis 2:7 states "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

And it doesn't contradict Jesus's promise, b/c the comma is added by English, correct? Greek has no commas, and with a sentence like the promise made to the thief, where one comma is can make all the difference. You also haven't explained why we would even need a resurrection and judgement day if we just went straight to heaven after death.

Also, according to you, where did He spend those three days between His death and resurrection?
I believe He spent it banshing Satan's brains out, but I'm not sure. I'll get back to you on this after I finish reading the gospels(probably after april because I have exams coming).

If Satan was banished, there would be no need for the angel/Jesus(I'm not sure what it says in that passage) to use the key to open up the bottomless pit an throw Satan in. If he were already banished, what's the point? Also, if he were banished, there wouldn' be as much evil in the world as there is right now.

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 5:40 pm

Well, he did fail. The point is, that is what Satan was trying to do. It is human nature, which is what Jesus had, to live up to a boast. Satan knew that was human nature, and thus tried to play on that to make Jesus fall.

Except Jesus never boasted.

How on earth does that prove His modesty? He was praying not to die, how is that in anyway modesty?

No, He wasn't...
Last few times I tried to explain to you the properties of the Trinity it went through one eye and out the other, so I won't bother with that again. Think of it this way: If Jesus did not want to do God's will, then doesn't that make him a sinner? But if He did want to do God's will, is their will not the same?

Eccl. 9:5 states that while the living are consious of that they will die, the dead are consious of nothing at all. As for your flesh and bone are your soul Genesis 2:7 states "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
And it doesn't contradict Jesus's promise, b/c the comma is added by English, correct? Greek has no commas, and with a sentence like the promise made to the thief, where one comma is can make all the difference. You also haven't explained why we would even need a resurrection and judgement day if we just went straight to heaven after death.

It's funny that you should bring up Eccl. because later in that chapter it speaks of Sheol...
In addition, remember Jesus's parable wit Abraham and Isaac? Clearly there is an afterlife.
Judgement day... That is the day of reckoning. The dead are judged, etc. That defines the way one spends eternity. We will be ressurected and given new bodies in a new physical universe. All it means is that we aquire a new body, not that we come back from nothingness.

If Satan was banished, there would be no need for the angel/Jesus(I'm not sure what it says in that passage) to use the key to open up the bottomless pit an throw Satan in. If he were already banished, what's the point? Also, if he were banished, there wouldn' be as much evil in the world as there is right now.

Sorry, I misspelled the word and you took the wrong meaning. I did not mean "banish"(although I'm fairly sure Satan WAS bound for 1000 years or something like that). I meant "Bash Satan's Brains out". As in kick his ***.

voicingmaster · Post by **voicingmaster** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 5:54 pm

Mastermind wrote:
Well, he did fail. The point is, that is what Satan was trying to do. It is human nature, which is what Jesus had, to live up to a boast. Satan knew that was human nature, and thus tried to play on that to make Jesus fall.
Except Jesus never boasted.

I never said He did. I never said that's what Jesus did, I said that's what Satan wanted Him to do.

How on earth does that prove His modesty? He was praying not to die, how is that in anyway modesty?
No, He wasn't...
Last few times I tried to explain to you the properties of the Trinity it went through one eye and out the other, so I won't bother with that again. Think of it this way: If Jesus did not want to do God's will, then doesn't that make him a sinner? But if He did want to do God's will, is their will not the same?

How was He not praying that He wouldn't die? Matther 26:39"...[Jesus prayed] O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me:nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."

He asked if the cup be passed from Him, and this was shortly before the crucifixion. How is He not pleading for His life? As for the claim that it would make Jesus a sinned, notice that Jesus made it clear that He only wanted to be spared if it was God's will. Notice in Matther 26:42 that Jesus accepts that He is to die, and thus prays to God telling Him so.

Eccl. 9:5 states that while the living are consious of that they will die, the dead are consious of nothing at all. As for your flesh and bone are your soul Genesis 2:7 states "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
And it doesn't contradict Jesus's promise, b/c the comma is added by English, correct? Greek has no commas, and with a sentence like the promise made to the thief, where one comma is can make all the difference. You also haven't explained why we would even need a resurrection and judgement day if we just went straight to heaven after death.
It's funny that you should bring up Eccl. because later in that chapter it speaks of Sheol...

Sheol is a place of unconciousness, where the dead sleep until resurrection. That's where we go. I have no objection to Sheol.

In addition, remember Jesus's parable wit Abraham and Isaac? Clearly there is an afterlife.

No, I don't recall that one, can you tell you me the book, chapter, and verse please? You sure it was Abraham and Isaac, and not Lazarus and the rich man?

Judgement day... That is the day of reckoning. The dead are judged, etc. That defines the way one spends eternity. We will be ressurected and given new bodies in a new physical universe. All it means is that we aquire a new body, not that we come back from nothingness.

What's the point of a new body if we are already consious? Also, according to you, all souls are already where they're supposed to be after death. Accoding to you, a Christian goes to heaven, and a non-Christian goes to the other place directly after death.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 6:48 pm

Ok as Mastermind stated your likely not gonna get him/her to change her belief especially since she is Jewish (trust me I would know). However I still encourage it, considering i'm still in a debate with a Talmud student myself.

Jewish people assert it's blasphemy for a man to be considered God. So really you would have to do a hefty theological debate about that before anything else.

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 7:35 pm

voicingmaster wrote: I never said He did. I never said that's what Jesus did, I said that's what Satan wanted Him to do.

This is going around in circles. What is there for Jesus to gain from this? The only way Jesus would have something to gain from this is if He jumps, the angels catch Him above Jerusalem for all to see, and pretty much confirm He is the messiah and ease his future suffering.

How was He not praying that He wouldn't die? Matther 26:39"...[Jesus prayed] O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me:nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."

He asked if the cup be passed from Him, and this was shortly before the crucifixion. How is He not pleading for His life? As for the claim that it would make Jesus a sinned, notice that Jesus made it clear that He only wanted to be spared if it was God's will. Notice in Matther 26:42 that Jesus accepts that He is to die, and thus prays to God telling Him so.

Jesus knew He would die way before that. I don't see a request to be saved from death. God or not, He knew why He had to do it. To even suggest to God that His decision might not have been the best is blasphemy.

Sheol is a place of unconciousness, where the dead sleep until resurrection. That's where we go. I have no objection to Sheol.

I disagree. But let us continue.

No, I don't recall that one, can you tell you me the book, chapter, and verse please? You sure it was Abraham and Isaac, and not Lazarus and the rich man?

Lazarus(I keep getting the dude's name mixed up), abraham and the rich man. So you do remember. What is your explanation?

What's the point of a new body if we are already consious?

We need a new body for the new and improved universe God will change this one into.

Also, according to you, all souls are already where they're supposed to be after death. Accoding to you, a Christian goes to heaven, and a non-Christian goes to the other place directly after death.

That is true. But that does not mean they stay there. They will be given new bodies at the end of times.

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 7:36 pm

vvart wrote:Ok as Mastermind stated your likely not gonna get him/her to change her belief especially since she is Jewish (trust me I would know). However I still encourage it, considering i'm still in a debate with a Talmud student myself.

Jewish people assert it's blasphemy for a man to be considered God. So really you would have to do a hefty theological debate about that before anything else.

I'm Jewish? And here I was thinking I was Christian...

O.o

Prodigal Son · Post by **Prodigal Son** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 10:07 am

i'm just going to let my friend find his own way. everytime we discuss this issue, he get flaming mad!

oh well, thanks for helping.

unless, is there a book or paper which gathers all this evidence together?

Felgar · Post by **Felgar** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 10:23 am

colors wrote:i'm just going to let my friend find his own way. everytime we discuss this issue, he get flaming mad! oh well, thanks for helping.

unless, is there a book or paper which gathers all this evidence together?

Yeah. To me the Revelation passage about Jesus' return pretty much lays to rest any possiblity that Jesus is just an angel. But if he's unwilling to see that, then perhaps it's time to leave it to God.

Prodigal Son · Post by **Prodigal Son** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 10:27 am

sad, but maybe this is his journey. i will pray for him. God always knows what's best.

voicingmaster · Post by **voicingmaster** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 4:24 pm

Mastermind wrote:
voicingmaster wrote: I never said He did. I never said that's what Jesus did, I said that's what Satan wanted Him to do.
This is going around in circles. What is there for Jesus to gain from this? The only way Jesus would have something to gain from this is if He jumps, the angels catch Him above Jerusalem for all to see, and pretty much confirm He is the messiah and ease his future suffering.

It is human nature to live up to a challenge, or a boast, or anything. That's human nature. Jesus had human nature. Satan knew that. Thus, Satan was playing on Jesus's human nature to boast that He was the son of God. Jesus would be gaining pride by proving to a non-believer that He is the Son of God. Granted Jesus didn't do it, but that's irrelevant, the point is what Satan wanted Him to do.

How was He not praying that He wouldn't die? Matther 26:39"...[Jesus prayed] O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me:nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."

He asked if the cup be passed from Him, and this was shortly before the crucifixion. How is He not pleading for His life? As for the claim that it would make Jesus a sinned, notice that Jesus made it clear that He only wanted to be spared if it was God's will. Notice in Matther 26:42 that Jesus accepts that He is to die, and thus prays to God telling Him so.
Jesus knew He would die way before that. I don't see a request to be saved from death. God or not, He knew why He had to do it. To even suggest to God that His decision might not have been the best is blasphemy.

Jesus was always excepting of God's will. He was just asking God to change His will. Notice that in the passages He says "Oh Father, if it be your will...", so He was never stating that God didn't know best.

BTW, you have yet to explain how that verse is possibly reflecting His modesty.

Sheol is a place of unconciousness, where the dead sleep until resurrection. That's where we go. I have no objection to Sheol.
I disagree. But let us continue.

If it's not a place of unconsciousness, then what is it? Also, if we aren't unconscious after death, why would Jesus liken death to sleeping?

No, I don't recall that one, can you tell you me the book, chapter, and verse please? You sure it was Abraham and Isaac, and not Lazarus and the rich man?
Lazarus(I keep getting the dude's name mixed up), abraham and the rich man. So you do remember. What is your explanation?

Yes, I know it. It is a parable, a story. It never happened. Jesus told it to teach a lesson, not to give record of a good man getting rewarded and a bad man getting tortured. The story isn't even that realistic. Why would the rich man ask for a drop of water to soothe his torment? It would take a lot more than single drop of water to ease the suffering of the flames. Also, what kind of paradise would it be if you could look over and see people getting tormented?