Evidence for God from Science

Jesus never denied being worshiped. Heb 1:1-14 Explains His divinity. Even the angels worship him.

For example, Christians were very disobedient under Roman rule. They were supposed to worship pagan gods, and they disobeyed and were slowly burned to death as human torches, crucified, and killed in a number of more imaginative ways. Also, the wars between Catholics and Protestants seem valid because Protestants were defending there ability to worship God the way they wanted, not the way the Catholics wanted them to (probably a too general statement about several wars....).

Curious. I read that most of the "persecution" Christians suffered under the Roman Empire was just a myth. If my memory doesn't fail me, Edward Gibbon wrote than throughout a 300 year period, Christian victims of persecution were somewhat less than two thousand persons.

On the other hand, it's interesting to see how a monstrous masacre between Catholics and Protestants could be defended from the point of view of scripture...

I wasn't asking about this, anyway. I was only considering how Christians refused to cooperate with the Roman Empire's wars before the Edict Of Milan, and how they changed completely once Christianism became the favourite toy of Emperor Constantine. And all of this dramatic change (from pacifists to dogs of war) supposedly based upon the same scriptures...

kateliz wrote:Bravo, vvart!

On war and peace I've come to believe that Christians aren't supposed to be involved in government?

I Disagree!! Matthew was a Tax Collector... David was a King, Joseph was the right hand man to Pharoah, Daniel was the head of Religion, many people were a part of the Government....

My two cents

Don't know about the refusal of Christians to fight in Roman wars....so you could say the Romans forced Christians to fight in ballerina outfits and I couldn't be 100% sure you were wrong....

atheist wrote:

For example, Christians were very disobedient under Roman rule. They were supposed to worship pagan gods, and they disobeyed and were slowly burned to death as human torches, crucified, and killed in a number of more imaginative ways. Also, the wars between Catholics and Protestants seem valid because Protestants were defending there ability to worship God the way they wanted, not the way the Catholics wanted them to (probably a too general statement about several wars....).

Curious. I read that most of the "persecution" Christians suffered under the Roman Empire was just a myth. If my memory doesn't fail me, Edward Gibbon wrote than throughout a 300 year period, Christian victims of persecution were somewhat less than two thousand persons.

On the other hand, it's interesting to see how a monstrous masacre between Catholics and Protestants could be defended from the point of view of scripture...

I wasn't asking about this, anyway. I was only considering how Christians refused to cooperate with the Roman Empire's wars before the Edict Of Milan, and how they changed completely once Christianism became the favourite toy of Emperor Constantine. And all of this dramatic change (from pacifists to dogs of war) supposedly based upon the same scriptures...

The persecution of Christian during Roman time is real. I've not read up on how many were actually killed, but all I know is that a lot of the key people (Apostles, deacons) were martyl. Many others did went into hiding (which is part of the persecution...just like in communist China). That may have reduced the casualty, & have also help spread Christianity due to the dispersion. When Jesus said render unto Rome what belongs to Rome, He was referring to taxation & govt laws, not religious belief. Don't forget also that we're to "Render unto God what is God's"

As for Wars...I'm never for wars of any kind (not even religious) except for defending the innocents. Jesus told us that we're to suffer for our faith. That include dying for it. Jesus & the Apostles were classic examples of the non-violent approach.

One important thing to note is that human err in scripture interpretation. The faults lies not with the scriptures but in man for choosing to lift text out-of context to justify their own aim. This can happen to any religion.

I for one believe that most religious teaching are about good will to man & thus cannot fathom the justification of taking the life of innocent. However, the approach to the true God & life after is a different matter all together & that where different religions differ. There's no way to reconcile them into a one world religion if we're to look at the specific contradiction they have on each other.
Note: Buddhisim have a different version of hell from Muslim, Judaism & Christianity. Only Christianity preaches salvation not through works but faith alone...but it's a faith that'll generate works.

bizzt wrote:

kateliz wrote:On war and peace I've come to believe that Christians aren't supposed to be involved in government?

I Disagree!! Matthew was a Tax Collector... David was a King, Joseph was the right hand man to Pharoah, Daniel was the head of Religion, many people were a part of the Government....

I said "Christians," not Jews. Yes, God told His people to go to war and even fought for them many times, but that was while we were under the Law and allowances were made for us. He allowed getting a divorce back then for just about whatever reason, and many other things, but He has raised the bar of the morality we are to practice because of our Savior's work. Matthew 5:21-42 covers this issue pretty well! Like I said before,

Christians in the government find themselves having to say "yea" or "nay" to war, and according to scripture they are to fight it with prayer, (and preaching and teaching of course.) How can you reconcile these too? I'm not sure. Jesus taught us to act in accordance with peace and not be violent, and Paul teaches us to war with prayer. If Christians weren't in the government, then the problem would be solved; go into your innermost chamber to war against demons.

Being involved in governmental decisions on war means you are trying to deal with the flesh and blood, and that's not the way God told us to deal with it. Why band-aid the bleeding, potentially lethal wound? Go to the doctor who can fix the cause of the symptoms you want to cure. Fight with faith is my opinion. I'm not a pacifist, because in a secular world war is necessary. You can't tell a non-Christian government they can't fight back tyrants because they are supposed to petition God about it instead! The confusion starts when you have a "Christian government" because Christians aren't to war physically, but governments at this time on earth are. God said He put them in place to uphold justice, and that includes using the sword, but Christians aren't to use the sword ourselves. It's a hard thing for me to support , but I have no other choice that I believe is biblical; I don't believe Christians are supposed to be involved in government decisions about war or participate in it.

The persecution of Christian during Roman time is real. I've not read up on how many were actually killed, but all I know is that a lot of the key people (Apostles, deacons) were martyl

Sure, but just a small number of people compared to those who suffered under Christians.

Well, I for one didn't join the Crusades; don't know about you guys... Hey, wait a second, we're off topic here!

kateliz wrote:Being involved in governmental decisions on war means you are trying to deal with the flesh and blood, and that's not the way God told us to deal with it. Why band-aid the bleeding, potentially lethal wound? Go to the doctor who can fix the cause of the symptoms you want to cure. Fight with faith is my opinion. I'm not a pacifist, because in a secular world war is necessary. You can't tell a non-Christian government they can't fight back tyrants because they are supposed to petition God about it instead! The confusion starts when you have a "Christian government" because Christians aren't to war physically, but governments at this time on earth are. God said He put them in place to uphold justice, and that includes using the sword, but Christians aren't to use the sword ourselves. It's a hard thing for me to support , but I have no other choice that I believe is biblical; I don't believe Christians are supposed to be involved in government decisions about war or participate in it.

Wow... Good post Kateliz. I agree with your stance on war and the role of government in our world. But I do disagree that we must remain completely uninvolved in government though (which would be the only way I see to NOT be involved in government decisions about war). Governments are simply a part of the world in which we live, and this is one reason why we are to give unto Ceasar. Plus God does reassure us that governments rise and fall according to His will.

Having said all that though, there's another part of me that cannot justify sitting idly by while atrocities are taking place elsewhere... The West's refusal to intervene in Rwanda is a great example where I have to believe that we disgraced ourselves by doing nothing. Cambodia and even Darfur are further examples.

How can I reconcile those 2 seperate beliefs? I can't... On this issue I remain in contradiction with myself, which is clearly a problem. So I'm obviously very open to new ideas on the topic.

kateliz wrote:I said "Christians," not Jews. Yes, God told His people to go to war and even fought for them many times, but that was while we were under the Law and allowances were made for us. He allowed getting a divorce back then for just about whatever reason, and many other things, but He has raised the bar of the morality we are to practice because of our Savior's work. Matthew 5:21-42 covers this issue pretty well! Like I said before,

What about Corneilius after his Family was saved when he met Peter? Was he not a Soldier. It does not tell us if he quit the Army. What about the Wars in Revelations
Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

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Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

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Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

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Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

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Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful.

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Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

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Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Do we forsake the entire Old Testament? I hope for the Day below Kate TRULY!!! That day however has not come!
Isa 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

I don't think we as a People should look for War but do we allow the weak to be oppressed?

My two cents

Tim

Seedling you need tighter analysis, for example the Pharisees figured out that Jesus was saying he is God.

By the way Paul addresses why Jesus's portrayed himself as a servant of God while being God at the same time.

Also since your not taking scripture seriously, I can see why it might be hard for you to realize the obvious.

atheist wrote:

The persecution of Christian during Roman time is real. I've not read up on how many were actually killed, but all I know is that a lot of the key people (Apostles, deacons) were martyl

Sure, but just a small number of people compared to those who suffered under Christians.

I do not agree with the Crusades....nor any other people who sufferred under Christians for reason that's self-justified.

These errors are of human & not of the bible nor of God.
To sieve out the right religion/faith (including Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism etc), one should look at the original teaching alone....if it make sense. The sinfulness & weakness of men make us a poor representation of the faith.
As what we've always been taught....do not look to man, but to God. Man fails, but God don't.

I don't see a contradiction with a Christian serving in a government.

One must just play his part is steering the government's decision, but still the majority rules & submitting to the majority (in the senate or whatever) is submitting to the govt, even while you're part of it.

This is like one of the previous post where someone refuse to participate in voting.
When we vote, we've in some effect participated in a governmental decision. But ultimately, we still submit to whoever who's being elected.

I think the idea that Christians should stay out of government is suicidal. Plato made the point in the Republic that those who know the best should be in government-so anyone who doesn't worship God and/or denies him should not be left to steer the ship alone (they shouldn't steer in the first place).

And I don't go along with the Crusades either-wars fought for personal power are wrong, because they are selfish-wars fought unselfishly or for self-defense I agree in.

So instead of going on the crusades and keeping the turks at bay, they should've just let them overrun east europe and convert it to islam? Another brilliant post by AttentionKMartShoppers. They're becoming standard.