Evidence for God from Science

puritan lad wrote:Why do they have to lie to do it?

Who said they're lying? I think Van Impe has stated that what he says are his personal opinions.

bizzt wrote:Him Prophesying or saying that certain things are going to happen were wrong however this does not mean his interpretation of Scripture is wrong.

But it does disqualify him from being a "world renowned prophecy expert". He is an expert on nothing except confusion.

As far as his interpretation of scripture goes, it is very sloppy and irresponsible. Here is a list of Jack Van Impe's “Signs of the Times”.

• Horseless carriages or automobiles (Nahum 2:3,4).
• Airplanes (Isaiah 31:5).
• Alignment of a ten nation western confederacy (Daniel 2, 7).
• Invention of the atom bomb (2 Peter 3:10).
• Jerusalem under Jewish control (Luke 21:24).

In short, nothing on this list is mentioned in scripture. Nahum does not not mention "automobiles", and fact that scope of Nahum's prophecy concerned the destruction of Nineveh (See Nahum 1:1, 2:8) by the Babylonians in 612 BC seems to be totally oblivious to Dr. Jack. In Dr. Jack's world, birds become airplanes, marks and numbers become computer chips and Visa Cards, etc.

If you enjoy listening to Dr. Jack, go for it. I find it good for comic relief. If you believe that he has a clue as to what he is talking about, I feel sorry for you.

puritan lad wrote: He is an expert on nothing except confusion.

In short, nothing on this list is mentioned in scripture. .

He's just trying to emphasize that we may very well be into the last days. The Bible does mention the Jews reestablishing a homeland, which happened in 1948.

Correction, all of the passages that refer to the Jews returning to their homeland are in the OT, and were fulfilled after the Babylonian Exile. There is absolutely nothing in the Bible about 1948. Don't forget, Jesus curse the fig tree so that it would NEVER bear fruit again. Modern Israel is totally irrelevant to anything in the Bible (not to mention that 90% of it's inhabitants are European Jews, not ancestors of Abraham, and that they are an anti-Christian nation).

And we are not in the "last days". Christ will not return until He has put "all enemies under His feet". (1 Cor. 15:24-25). That doesn't appear to be happening anytime soon.

In any case. Jack has been proven over and over again to be a false prophet (because he makes false prophecies). I take the Bible's warning on this issue seriously.

2 Peter 2:1
"But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction."

1 John 4:1
"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world."

Needless to say, the modern church has done a very poor job testing the spirits.

puritan lad wrote:Correction, all of the passages that refer to the Jews returning to their homeland are in the OT, and were fulfilled after the Babylonian Exile. There is absolutely nothing in the Bible about 1948.

No: Luke 21:29-31
When Israel blooms again, the Kingdom of God will be near

not to mention that 90% of it's inhabitants are European Jews, not ancestors of Abraham, and

It doesn't matter, because most European and other non-Judean Jews have some Jewish ancestry. Even if you've converted to Judaism, you're still considered a Jew.

that they are an anti-Christian nation.

Not all of Israel is Jewish.

And we are not in the "last days".

That's your opinion. Many ministers and priests feel that we are nearing the Second Coming.

Jeremiah 23:3-6
The Messiah will appear after the Jews return to Israel

Jeremiah 46:28
Enemies of the Jews will cease to be nations

Joel 3:2
Israel would be partitioned by other nations

Micah 4:1
Jerusalem would become the world's most important religious site

Zechariah 8:22
Many people will go to Jerusalem to seek God's favor

Zechariah 12:1-5
Jerusalem would become an international problem

Zechariah 14:12
Zechariah foreshadowed modern warfare

Matthew 24:14
The Gospel will be preached to the entire world

Matthew 24:21-22
Jesus spoke of a day of unequaled destruction and suffering

Needless to say, the modern church has done a very poor job testing the spirits.

If you're so critical of today's churches, why don't you preach the Gospel yourself?

The EU is certainly involved in the end times, and was prophesied in Scripture.

puritan lad wrote:Correction, all of the passages that refer to the Jews returning to their homeland are in the OT, and were fulfilled after the Babylonian Exile.

That's a difficult position to support, especially given the prophecies which speak of the Jews returning by sea. It is extremely difficult to get from Babylon to Israel by means of ocean going vessels.

There is absolutely nothing in the Bible about 1948. Don't forget, Jesus curse the fig tree so that it would NEVER bear fruit again. Modern Israel is totally irrelevant to anything in the Bible (not to mention that 90% of it's inhabitants are European Jews, not ancestors of Abraham, and that they are an anti-Christian nation).

I'd like to see some historical and Scriptural evidence of this please (your argument from the fig tree is not strong, it's simply an assumption about what Christ meant).

And we are not in the "last days". Christ will not return until He has put "all enemies under His feet". (1 Cor. 15:24-25). That doesn't appear to be happening anytime soon.

In any case. Jack has been proven over and over again to be a false prophet (because he makes false prophecies). I take the Bible's warning on this issue seriously.

2 Peter 2:1
"But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction."

1 John 4:1
"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world."

Needless to say, the modern church has done a very poor job testing the spirits.

I am with you on these points.

Fortigurn wrote:The EU is certainly involved in the end times, and was prophesied in Scripture.

What Scriptures?

Fortigurn wrote:That's a difficult position to support, especially given the prophecies which speak of the Jews returning by sea. It is extremely difficult to get from Babylon to Israel by means of ocean going vessels.

The Jews were dispersed throughout the Babylonian Empire, not just to the city of Babylon. Besides, Babylon in the Bible is represented symbolically by the "Wilderness of the Sea" (Isaiah 21:1-10)

Fortigurn wrote:

There is absolutely nothing in the Bible about 1948. Don't forget, Jesus curse the fig tree so that it would NEVER bear fruit again. Modern Israel is totally irrelevant to anything in the Bible (not to mention that 90% of it's inhabitants are European Jews, not ancestors of Abraham, and that they are an anti-Christian nation).

I'd like to see some historical and Scriptural evidence of this please (your argument from the fig tree is not strong, it's simply an assumption about what Christ meant).

I'd like to see some scriptural evidence that 1948 is mentioned in the Bible. That will be easier than trying to prove what is not there.

Mastermind wrote:For how long have people believed the Pope is the antichrist? Did it start with Calvin or was it earlier?

The earliest I've found is Arnulf of Orleans (991), a Roman Catholic Archbiship. I could give you a list of another half dozen Roman Catholics who held this view a long time before the Reformation.

puritan lad wrote:

Fortigurn wrote:The EU is certainly involved in the end times, and was prophesied in Scripture.

What Scriptures?

I would say:

• Daniel 2
• Daniel 7
• Revelation 17

puritan lad wrote:

Fortigurn wrote:That's a difficult position to support, especially given the prophecies which speak of the Jews returning by sea. It is extremely difficult to get from Babylon to Israel by means of ocean going vessels.

The Jews were dispersed throughout the Babylonian Empire, not just to the city of Babylon.

That's trying pretty hard. I would like to see the historical evidence that the Jews were scattered by the Babylonians all the way to Europe. That's a very big ask, given that the Babylonian empire didn't extend that far.

Besides, Babylon in the Bible is represented symbolically by the "Wilderness of the Sea" (Isaiah 21:1-10)

That is a symbol, but the passages which speak of the Jews returning from exile do not speak of them returning in symbolic ships from a symbolic sea.

puritanlad wrote:I'd like to see some scriptural evidence that 1948 is mentioned in the Bible. That will be easier than trying to prove what is not there.

I didn't say the date was mentioned in the Bible. But I certainly believe that the return of the Jews to their land, and the re-establishment of their nation is in the Bible. Is that what you would like me to show you?

But you still have to deal with my argument. This was your assertion:

Don't forget, Jesus curse the fig tree so that it would NEVER bear fruit again. Modern Israel is totally irrelevant to anything in the Bible (not to mention that 90% of it's inhabitants are European Jews, not ancestors of Abraham, and that they are an anti-Christian nation).

I need to see evidence that:

• Christ's cursing of the fig tree carried the meaning you ascribe to it
• Modern Israel is totally irrelevant to anything in the Bible
• European Jews are not ancestors of Abraham

Fortigurn wrote:

puritan lad wrote:

Fortigurn wrote:The EU is certainly involved in the end times, and was prophesied in Scripture.

What Scriptures?

I would say:

• Daniel 2
• Daniel 7
• Revelation 17

Fair enough. Please show individual verses and expound.

Fortigurn wrote:That's trying pretty hard. I would like to see the historical evidence that the Jews were scattered by the Babylonians all the way to Europe. That's a very big ask, given that the Babylonian empire didn't extend that far.

Who said anything about Europe? The Babylonian Empire covered the Mediterranian Sea, Red Sea, Black Sea, Caspian Sea, and other little "seas" such as the "sea" of Galilee.

Fortigurn wrote:I didn't say the date was mentioned in the Bible. But I certainly believe that the return of the Jews to their land, and the re-establishment of their nation is in the Bible. Is that what you would like me to show you?

Yes. Make it post Babylon please (preferably NT).

Fortigurn wrote:I need to see evidence that:

• Christ's cursing of the fig tree carried the meaning you ascribe to it

Just take His Word for it.

Matthew 21:18-19
"Now in the morning, as He returned to the city, He was hungry. And seeing a fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it but leaves, and said to it, “Let no fruit grow on you ever again.” Immediately the fig tree withered away."

Seeing as how he tells His disciples to understand the parable of the fig tree during the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24:32) concerning the Jews of the Apostle's generation (Matthew 24:34), and that historically we know that this fig tree did in fact wither away in 70 AD, the burden of proof would have to lie on you to show that the fig tree has anything to do with modern Israel. No one could come to that conclusion without doing serious damage to the text.

Fortigurn wrote:[*] Modern Israel is totally irrelevant to anything in the Bible

Again, this would have to address the scriptures that you insist do refer to modern day Israel. Therefore, you need to show where modern Israel is relevant to anything in the Bible.

Fortigurn wrote:[*] European Jews are not ancestors of Abraham[/list]

A few probably have some Jewish ancestry. Many either do not, or have no way of knowing. In any case, I'm interested in your definition of a Jew. I know how the Bible describes them.

Romans 2:28-30
"For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God."

Galatians 3:7
"Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham."

This was true in both the OT and the NT.

puritan lad wrote:Who said anything about Europe? The Babylonian Empire covered the Mediterranian Sea, Red Sea, Black Sea, Caspian Sea, and other little "seas" such as the "sea" of Galilee.

But I don't think it made it to the distant western sea port of Tarshish (Isaiah 60:9). Nor to 'Tubal, Javan, and to the distant coastlands that have not heard about me or seen my splendor' (Isaiah 66:9). Nor to 'the isles afar off' (Jeremiah 31:10).

Fortigurn wrote:Yes. Make it post Babylon please (preferably NT).

Ok, I'll work on it.

Just take His Word for it.

Matthew 21:18-19
"Now in the morning, as He returned to the city, He was hungry. And seeing a fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it but leaves, and said to it, “Let no fruit grow on you ever again.” Immediately the fig tree withered away."

There's nothing here which explicates the passage as saying that the Jews would never return to their land. Did I miss something?

Seeing as how he tells His disciples to understand the parable of the fig tree during the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24:32) concerning the Jews of the Apostle's generation (Matthew 24:34), and that historically we know that this fig tree did in fact wither away in 70 AD, the burden of proof would have to lie on you to show that the fig tree has anything to do with modern Israel.

If you have read my other posts, you would know that I deny specifically that the reference to the fig tree in the Olivet prophecy is anything to do with Israel.

Fortigurn wrote:[*] Modern Israel is totally irrelevant to anything in the Bible

Again, this would have to address the scriptures that you insist do refer to modern day Israel. Therefore, you need to show where modern Israel is relevant to anything in the Bible.

So in other words, you have no positive evidence for your case, you are simply reduced to criticising my case.

Fortigurn wrote:[*] European Jews are not ancestors of Abraham[/list]

A few probably have some Jewish ancestry. Many either do not, or have no way of knowing.

It's called DNA.

In any case, I'm interested in your definition of a Jew. I know how the Bible describes them.

Romans 2:28-30
"For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God."

Galatians 3:7
"Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham."

This was true in both the OT and the NT.

The New Testament also defines Jews as being physical descendants of the people of Judah (more broadly, as physical descendants of Abraham).