Evidence for God from Science

You said it pretty well Dan.
Kmart, you stated before we are quite different b/c we have the breath of Life from the Lord... Not other animal received this. That should also justify us going up and animals going down.
I'm not sure if that implies animals cease to exist or what not. Jehovah Witnesses like to say hell = annihlated/cease to exist (that applies to humans). I'm not a big fan of the idea that human souls cease to exist (seems like another Flood but stepping it up a notch) but I'm unsure when it comes to animals.
I heard someone say once, "Knowing the Father heart of God, I wouldn't be surprised if you found your X animal in heaven waiting for you." The lady was so excited to hear this (others told her NO - ALL DOGS GO TO HELL!) that she allowed the guy to bring her a Bible and she gave her life to Christ.

I'm not saying that's what I believe...I just have no clue and asked if that's what it means...

Dan wrote:

AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:What do the directions indicate? Is it that when an animal dies, the spirit dissipates and that's it? And is it that when man dies, the saved souls go up to heaven? WEIRD.

The spirit of man is different from the soul of animals. Animals with soul have characteristics of higher intelligence, however the spirit of man is the part of him that is made in the image of God. That is why men go up to heaven and animals don't, because the spiritual side of man is in God's image.

So this means when we die and go to heaven - we wont be reunited with our dearly loved companion animals? I miss my deceased dog and cat..

Anonymiss wrote:...So this means when we die and go to heaven - we wont be reunited with our dearly loved companion animals? I miss my deceased dog and cat..

Rev 19:1, "Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war."

Be of good cheer - Jesus will come riding on a horse!

Therefore - there are animals in Heaven!
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That's great to hear! I love my furkids as much as my human family!

Though I wonder what the Bible means by the spirits/souls of humans ascending to heaven and those of the animals "going down"?

"The spirit of man goes upward, to be judged, and is then fixed in an unchangeable state of happiness or misery. It is as certain that the spirit of the beast goes downward to the earth; it perishes at death." ~Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

Looking at Ecc. 3:21 again makes it clear to me that God's Word clearly states that animals go back to the earth from which they came. The white horse coming out of heaven isn't literal, but figurative. I love my pets dearly as well, but we must keep them in the place that God put them- as part of the earth. They were intended as our companions here on earth, but they couldn't be the help-meet man needs. Woman, in marriage, was the capable help-meet, but in heaven there will be no marriage. If we don't need marriage in heaven, we certainly don't need beast companions. And frankly, we shouldn't love beasts as much as humans. God doesn't say to love beasts as we love ourselves, but He does say to love our neighbors, our human neighbors, as we love ourselves. We are to place humans above beasts at all times. I'm an animal lover too, but I respect God's order in Creation more than I love my parakeet! Sometimes people take this too far and it gets me mad for God's sake.

As for my seeing my deceased dog supposedly in paradise with an "angel", I must say that it didn't have God's presence in it, and thus must not have been from God. God's presence in visions or dreams or even in circumstances or situations can be easily detected, (I've enough experience with those things to say so confidently,) but this one, I've always known, did not have His presence. Demons know I've always loved animals, and this "vision" happened just before they started trying to confuse me and draw me towards a spirituality not of God, (this included horoscopes, tarot cards an ouija boards). It was also around the time they entered a dream of mine I'll never forget that made me doubt my salvation when I awoke. I think I'm finally ready to conclude that this "vision" of my deceased dog in paradise was a deception from demons.

Incidentally, in a demonic encounter I had after all that nonsense from them, in which I did exorcise those/that demon(s) permanently, they appeared to me as that three-headed dog that in mythology guards Hades, Cerberus (though only defined by the three-heads). I was up at midnight, (in sixth grade,) rearranging my bedroom with the door cracked so my cat could come and go, when I saw in my spirit, (a visual not seen with my eyes but my spirit,) this three-headed dog trying to get through the crack in the door, gnarling and real angry. I knew instinctively that it was my choice to open the door and let them in or not. Because of a recent conversation that informed me these experiences I had been having were demonic, and in which I was told to send them packing by using Christ's name in faith, I knew what I should do and was ready, and sent them packing using His name. All of those demonic experiences stopped, and my sister, who also experienced them from the same demon(s), could tell, though she didn't know I had done that. She thought it was because a few months later a wall that was built by a molester in the area from which these experiences were based was torn down. No, it wasn't the wall, but Christ's name that dispersed them/it. Anyway, the demons used an animal figure that time as well, though when I saw my deceased dog it was visually, with my eyes, and the paw was a physical thing, as I remember it.

I think the demons tried to get me first by playing innocent, starting with showing me my old dog that they knew I was attached to, and when that didn't work they kept stepping it up till they finally gave up playing innocent and revealed themselves as evil, also as a dog, but as an evil one that wanted to attack me. You know, I never put two and two together before and saw the beginning and end of those experiences relating to dogs. There were other things in the middle non-animal, including a young girl's voice that ultimately mocked me, and I think those distracted me from that fact. It is interesting, isn't it?

Here are a few things to consider when reading the bible — homiletic exegesis. It is easy use one passage of bible to back a personal presupposition. It is good to look at the context to discover what the writer of the text is expressing.

This goes for Ecc 3:21, “Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth?”

This passage by itself at first appears to say that the spirit of man goes one direction and the spirit of the beast goes in another. However, what is the writer of Ecc expressing? The context brings this out quite clearly.

Please note:

Ecc 3:17-18, “I said in my heart, God will judge the righteous and the wicked, for there is a time for every matter and for every work. 18 I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they themselves are but beasts."

Here the preacher conveys that God will judge the righteous and the wicked. The Hebrew word translated wicked is - râshâ‛ - which simply defined as one guilty of crime, hostile to God, guilty of sin against God or man. The type of wickedness is expressed in verse 16 as people perverting /twisting justice and righteousness to suit themselves.

Then is verse 18 the author states that God is testing, or manifesting to people that they are but beast — animal like who corrupt justice and righteousness to satisfy their own base nature. In other words, they are beast like.

This is a direct link to understanding Ecc 3:21, “Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth?”

After one dies, then comes judgment. Of this judgment (verse 17) two types of people are brought forth to judgment by God: the righteous and the wicked. The wicked have been defined as being beast like; hence, if one is judged as a beast their spirit goes down into the earth (Deu 32:22). If judged righteous, they'll go upward and reside with the Lord.

Ecc 3:21 has nothing to do with telling people there will not animals in heaven for this or that reason but rather that God will bring people into harsh judgment for being found (uncovered), manifested to be likened to a beast.

Now look at the verse I left out:

Ecc 3:19-20, "For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. 20 All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.”

I left this out for a reason as I wanted to point out the direct link in contextual flow. Verses 19 and 20 tell the reader this — we all will die someday. Our mortal body will turn to dust. However, note verse 21 again:

“Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth?”

The spirit of a person lives on after one dies (note verse 11 and 14) but the body does not. Where does one want to spend eternity? Up with God or below with those found beast like?

Then Ecc 3:22 ends with a portent pointing to Jesus Christ as it is He who bring us to see what will be after we die.

Ecc 3:22, “So I saw that there is nothing better than that a man should rejoice in his work, for that is his lot. Who can bring him to see what will be after him?”

Context has nothing to do with animals being in heaven or not but everything to do with where one will spend eternity.

We may very well see our beloved pets in heaven; however, the poor turtles I gave a hot bath when iI was a little tike may not enjoy seeing me! The house smelled for days!

Since the bible mentions the Lord riding a horse we can assume that there are animals in heaven.

hmmm... but do all dogs go to heaven
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Bible quotes from the ESV

lol Oops. I'm not one for delving into exegesis without looking at the context, (because that's stupid, of course,) but you caught me! I apologize for contributing to this discussion in basically willful ignorance.

I am glad that it brought about B.W.'s study, however, (thank you for that, B.W.,) and I'm also glad that my ignorant analysis led to my seeing this very old "vision" I had for what I'm sure it must have been. I always wondered, not only what the heck that vision was for, but why in the world would, if the vision were accurate, my old dog want to leave heaven so desperately to come back to me??? She had this intensely sad and full of desperation yearning in her eyes, but it just doesn't make sense. I mean, she, (a gentle pitbull named Ribeye,) may have loved me as I loved her, but no love could be strong enough to cause you to want to leave heaven and God's presence for earth and the presence of a loved human!

lol But I suppose no one here is even taking my account seriously. Oh well. *shrugs shoulders*

I do find it ironic, however, that B.W. would, after going into a detailed analysis of those verses, just tack on a, to my eyes, simplistic view of the verse in which Jesus is stated to ride a horse. "Since the bible mentions the Lord riding a horse we can assume that there are animals in heaven." Didn't you just prove that the Bible can't be taken at such face-value from reading one verse? Or is it simply that you view Revelations as entirely literal? I take it symbolically for the most part.

And here's some things to wonder about if animals really did go to heaven:
~Do all animals that ever existed, even for just their births, get to go?
~If the above is not true, then which ones are qualified?
~What are the qualifications based on? Human love for the animal?
~How is the love to be judged? If I see a roaming cat and feel fondness for it and a desire to take it in if it happened to be un-owned, does that count the same as taking it in and caring for it the rest of my life with an ever growing fondness?
~If all animals a human ever felt fondness for are the qualified ones, then what about those people who love all animals, period, even if they never happened to see the animal?
~And if any human fondness is the qualification, because of the people stated just above, wouldn't all animals or critters ever born be qualified? What if someone highly respects the mosquito?? Aren't mosquitos, and for that matter the leg-less snake, the result of a world cursed by sin?? Did Eden have mosquitos, who live off the blood of others, when all animals and critters before the Fall were lived entirely off vegetation? Did the mosquitos suck on fruit???
~And if all animals ever birthed go to heaven...

No, I won't continue. Frankly, it's absolutely absurd. God never said that animals go to heaven- simply that Christ rode on a symbolic white horse, (and don't forget the forse horsemen of the apocalypse, which one would be absurd to think aren't be figurative in my mind). And anyway, let's get back to the purpose of God creating animals. In heaven, as I stated in my previous post, we won't have the same need for them as Adam did in Eden. We'll be in God's presence among all believers throughout history. And really, I don't want mosquitos in heaven! If they were meant to suck on fruit, then fine, let them be in the millennial kingdom, where God keeps the earth as it was meant to be, where we're all vegetarians and man has use for animal companions and marriage. But no, I don't want lizards and snakes and spiders in heaven, with me forever. There's a purpose and a place for everything as God makes clear, and animals and critters were meant for the current earth, not the new heavens and earth.

Incidentally, I know a woman who loves and highly respects spiders. She might want them to be in heaven with her, (if she were to make it there, that is.) Look, just because you love your dog doesn't give you reason to say that God wants him in heaven with you. We won't need marriage, and we won't need beasts.

There are a number of different schools of thought on this issue. Actually nowhere does scripture explicitly state that animals do not have souls. There are verses in the Bible that state that the whole creation is destined to be redeemed through the work of Christ Romans 8:21 but its not really clear on what it means. There's really nothing in the Bible that would preclude the possibility of animals continued existence but most of this is sheer speculation....

Earth is to be redeemed, yes, but how and when? I think it makes sense that it's to be in the millennial kingdom. After all, God said that all will be restored to the conditions of Eden, which was before the Fall which made Creation what it currently is. Christ will come after the earth gets ravaged by the Tribulation and restore it all, redeeming it all. Then after the 1,000 years and the following releasing of Satan and all that, He'll burn up earth permanently, and will then create the new heavens and earth, which is our heaven, our permanent home with God, (paradise is the current "holding pen", as I call it, and the real heaven comes later). This new heaven and earth will be quite new, (as He calls it new and the old will be destroyed,) and quite different. Though there will be a river of life and trees of life and a sea of glass, and cities, which all sound familiar described that way, (what will they actually be like is a good question,) all will be new and entirely different. If the beasts of the current earth were made to be lonely Adam's companions and for him to rule over and care for, though were not entirely adequate and so the role of a wife was made, but in the new earth marriage will not be needed and so not exist and we'll have new tasks to do, and if the new earth is to be as different as man not needing a wife is, and he obviously will not need beast companions if he doesn't need a wife, then why would we think that God would bring the same beasts to this new and different heaven where we won't need them? And if He would, why wouldn't He mention a resurrection of our beloved yet deceased pets to comfort us with? Because it's just not going to happen, even if we want it to. However, we may want it to now, but one split second in the presence of God will dispel all sadness and grief and mourning and missing and will satisfy us completely. When we get to heaven we'll be happy to know that God let us have our pets for a time on earth, but had a better plan for our eternal home with Him planned out. You don't need a dog when you have God.

Perhaps when in heaven we'll be given the option to visit deceased companion animals (speculating they do have souls or spirits) in the realm they are sent to. The idea of never seeing them ever again seems saddening - especially blind/handicapped people with assistance dogs.

Howver, isn't there a verse that says carnivorous beasts like lions will eat hay like an ox?

Life is sacred. Sex is sacred. Neither can be violated.

Gman wrote:There are a number of different schools of thought on this issue. Actually nowhere does scripture explicitly state that animals do not have souls. There are verses in the Bible that state that the whole creation is destined to be redeemed through the work of Christ Romans 8:21 but its not really clear on what it means. There's really nothing in the Bible that would preclude the possibility of animals continued existence but most of this is sheer speculation....

This is true, there are a number of different schools of thought on this issue and this matter is not explained in scripture.

There will a new heavens and earth so I would assume there would be animals on it as animals were all designed to help take care of things on earth in living ways. So why not on the new.

As for beloved pets being in Heaven - why not? and in a glorified state at that! This seems reasonable. After all, it is God who grants us a mansion in heaven and promises us good thngs as well. So why not have your beloved Lab meet you when you arrive or your favorite a cat jump in your lap as you try out a heavenly chair? Who knows?

Why do people dislike animals so as to exclude them from Heaven? maybe that is a topic we should explore

Maybe we should explore the possiblity of furniture being in heaven or not!
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Anonymiss wrote:Perhaps when in heaven we'll be given the option to visit deceased companion animals (speculating they do have souls or spirits) in the realm they are sent to. The idea of never seeing them ever again seems saddening - especially blind/handicapped people with assistance dogs.

Howver, isn't there a verse that says carnivorous beasts like lions will eat hay like an ox?

Some threads in the past that you might be interested to read over:

Biblical difference between Soul and Spirit?
Do animals go to heaven?
Animals Going To Heaven & Hell