Evidence for God from Science

Kateliz,

You are a real piece of work.

CountryBoy wrote:
God gets to us God shows us Himself , God Loves us and we love Him back, enough to WANT to give our money, and our time and ourselves . That's the whole big enormous miraclous thing. We have a free will, yet we choose to do His will over ours.

Kateiliz wrote:
But that doesn't work for those who don't love God!!!

Well, that's just common sense (something you have a dire lack of). He loves us all, those that respond to His love, do His will out of a love back (we are the ones that GET IT), those that don't respond to His love, well, He is smart/powerful enough to cause them (through circumstances or implanted thoughts or whatever) to do things He wants them to do, in order for the things to happen that He wants to happen, that will move His Kindom in the direction He wants. The one thing He won't force them to do (for lack of a better term), is to Love Him, because that's the one thing He wants us to choose to do on our own. It's so easy...where are you falling off?

Kateliz wrote:
I think you guys don't understand how God can do things this way, and because of that only see this other option of how God could work. God can do this and retain His nature. The Righteous Judge and Merciful One can at any time, retaining His nature, (even expressing it,) give mercy to some and not to others.

The real God, does beg and plead for our very souls, I mean, let's face it, He died for us! It's not that we don't see how He could do things your way, it's just that that's not the way He does it. Sure He has mercy on who He wants to have mercy...that's all of us. For the death of Jesus to not have been for my brother, who's unsaved, but it was for me, is an abomination. That God you serve, who created people just to make them suffer for eternity, sounds more like satan. My God created and gave all people the opportunity to serve Him for eternity in heaven.

I'm signing off of this thread Kateliz. Have at it.

kateliz wrote:Sorry you guys, but you totally got me wrong! Felgar, that article may very well state your beliefs, but it doesn't touch my own, (from what I've read so far.) And so it cannot be used to counter my beliefs.

Sure it can be used. Read it, understand it, and decide if it's biblical - which I think it is.

Allright I lied, I have one more comment.

God is filling heaven with those who choose Him. He gives us every chance in the world to choose Him, and if we do, we spend eternity with Him in heaven.

He really doesn't wish to spend eternity with the folks that do not choose Him, because...well, they chose not to spend eternity with Him.

I chose Him, so I'll be there, now exactly what this means for all of the hyper calvinists who didn't choose Him, I really couldn't say.

Good luck

I read the rest of that article just after sending in my last post. I get what he's saying all right, but I don't agree with it. I am glad he's not a full Arminianist, or whatever you call them, but he still misses it quite often. I actually found him to be quite illogical on a number of things, although I'm glad he was logical on others. And he didn't touch on the reasons I personally believe in determinism, so I don't feel I have to respond to his points.

I was struck with his interpretation on a few verses I, when having glanced over them before, (possibly even as long ago as a few years for some,) would have gotten predestination or determinism or whichever it was. I see that on closer inspection they do in fact refer instead to the Christian's life. That part I agree on. It doesn't shake my stance, however, because I don't base it on those particular verses, like he might claim I would.

CountryBoy, if you read this, I don't care to respond to your posts right now. I don't think you understand at all what I've meant, and I'm a little offended at your apparent anger. And yes, you will be spending eternity with me! And if Daddy sees you stomping on my foot while we're up there... I'm telling!!!

i don't think he chose every moment. i can't believe that he would do something like that. i think he chooses the conditions that he will place us all in: who we will know; places and events we will be part of. then, within these events/places and in interactions with certain people, there are an infinite number of choices, possibilities, reactions and he knows them all. he knows what we will choose to do under any circumstance at any moment, anywhere.

No anger here Kateliz, and I probably don't understand what you mean. But it's what God's love is about that you don't understand.

God is Love. He predestined NO ONE for hell. Simple concept. If you don't understand it, just memorize it...it'll come to light one of these days.

Prodigal Son wrote:i think he chooses the conditions that he will place us all in: who we will know; places and events we will be part of. then, within these events/places and in interactions with certain people, there are an infinite number of choices, possibilities, reactions and he knows them all. he knows what we will choose to do under any circumstance at any moment, anywhere.

Here's the funny thing, you absolutely cannot have Him arranging your personal influences and circumstances if He's not going to manipulate other people's free-wills! It's impossible! Say that someone recommends a book to you, and that book influences you greatly. Now, you're saying that God would have arranged for you to have that whole experience. How could He have if the whole situation only exists because of individuals' free-wills? He has to be a hands-off God if He can't mess with people's free-wills. If you say that He directly affects what people do based off of what He knows they would do, you still have to have Him mess with free-will! The world and all of the things in it that influence you are too many and much too complex for it to be otherwise. I am a material determinist who believes God's arranged everything ahead of time to cause exactly what He ultimately wants to happen to happen. You might then accuse me with saying I believe God directly wants sin to occur then, but I'd respond with no, but He wants His intended results and so allows it to happen by temporarily removing His sovereign block on that evil.

CountryBoy wrote:it's what God's love is about that you don't understand.

That claim is purposturous! If you grasped what I'm saying you'd see that my view, which is not the view of predestination you have, allows God to keep all of the glorious love you and I know He has. Please do not think that I don't understand that! Trust me on this- I understand His infinite love the same way you do.

Kateliz,

Let's see....God creates billions of people, just so He can send them to hell. He does not even give the the posibilty of heaven. They can pray to Him 24-hrs a day and ask Him for salvation...no dice.

No thanks girl, you keep that god, he's not mine, I'll not serve him.

You have a really skewed idea of love

circumstances and influence are independent of free-will. he could have said, "okay, you're going to meet kateliz one day." when we would meet and what we would say to each other would be up to our decisions/other's decisions and events/chance. he knew when and where and what but didn't interfere.

But how would we meet? Because I out of my free-will which is untainted by God decide to take a trip to the exact same place that you out of your untainted free-will also decide to. God would not have arranged that, chance would. Chance would determine every influence you encounter, unless God directly controls nature and so only influences us through that.

kateliz wrote:But how would we meet? Because I out of my free-will which is untainted by God decide to take a trip to the exact same place that you out of your untainted free-will also decide to. God would not have arranged that, chance would. Chance would determine every influence you encounter, unless God directly controls nature and so only influences us through that.

As a believer, God will direct you to that meeting Kateliz. Even unbelievers can be directed by God. But God does this is such a way that everyone can make the choice whether or not to believe. An individual's salvation is not predestined, but much of his life may be.

kateliz,

i can't explain it. but i think it makes more sense than us being robots; than us not having a choice.

Felgar wrote:But God does this is such a way that everyone can make the choice whether or not to believe. An individual's salvation is not predestined, but much of his life may be.

Whether or not to believe what? For salvation? But how does this have anything to do with us having untainted free-will? Or do you advocate free-will in salvation but not for the rest as you've made it sound? I thought we were talking about free-will as generally viewed: humans having wills that are free because they are untainted by influences.

But you cannot have a free will if it's subject to the influences of the things around you, (and in you.) That is where material determinism reveals itself. If you say your will is above those influences, you still cannot avoid the fact that the particular influences you encounter, (and those you don't,) do in fact shape your thoughts and feelings. That's just common sense, as I've been accused of not using for my own thoughts on this issue.

Prodigal Son wrote:i can't explain it. but i think it makes more sense than us being robots; than us not having a choice.

Am I correct in assuming that you don't want to believe in determinsim, (at least in part,) because you think it'd be unfair? I'm guessing that with you, as well as many others here, you mainly prefer free-will over determinism because you can't imagine not having free-will.

It makes sense because don't we constantly experience it? and doesn't God being Love itself require it? and don't we need to love God of our own choosing and not His? and how would it be love if it was His choice? and how would it be fair if we didn't have it? and why would God want those who are to love Him to just be puppets that He controls?

That used to be my reasoning as well. Not to mention all that the Bible says about turning to God and believing on Him and going to the whole world to witness to people. I thoroughly understand all of that. What I'm saying is that there's so much more to it than that, and the truth about it all is so much more glorious! Although, don't want to go into it right now. But man, is it beautiful! And in absolutely no way does it diminish any of God's characteristics, even His love!

kateliz wrote:

Felgar wrote:But God does this is such a way that everyone can make the choice whether or not to believe. An individual's salvation is not predestined, but much of his life may be.

Whether or not to believe what? For salvation? But how does this have anything to do with us having untainted free-will? Or do you advocate free-will in salvation but not for the rest as you've made it sound? I thought we were talking about free-will as generally viewed: humans having wills that are free because they are untainted by influences.

What I'm saying is that every single person will, at some point in his/her life, have the chance to make a free choice whether or not to believe in Jesus. And for those who have never heard about Jesus, they will have a free choice to whether or not to accept the truth that God has written on their heart.

Does that mean God cannot influence our daily lives? Not at all. Does that mean that God cannot force some decisions? Certainly not. In fact, once we commit our lives to God, He should actually be controlling most aspects of our life, through the Holy Spirit. But God having control over lives does NOT mean that He forces some people to reject Him. God is capable of control aspects of a person's life without taking their fundamental right to chose whether or not they will love Him.

i can't believe it because that would mean there is no purpose to anything. it would mean i never had a choice in anything and i never will. just knowing that screws it all up. i can't believe it because that would mean that God has caused all the evil i've seen. i'm attracted to him for hope and purpose and meaning and possibility and love. if i believed what you say, i would not find the God i'm seeking.

but, most importantly, i can't believe it because it really doesn't make any sense. sorry, sweets.