Evidence for God from Science

Here's a couple of articles regarding the Shroud of Turin by Gary Habermas that support it's authenticity. I don't believe the shroud is genuine because I can't understand why God would allow such an image to exist. Look at the bronze serpent that was eventually destroyed because it became an object of worship, the Shroud of Turin is no different. It's a mystery for sure and one that could have demonic inspiration, especially if you look at it from an ecumenical perspective.

"Even this very brief look at several aspects of the shroud of Turin reveals that it has much significance for Biblical studies. Scientific inquiry reveals that there is little chance that it is a fake. In particular, experiments show that there is no foreign substance that could account for the image." http://www.garyhabermas.com/articles/J_ ... icance.htm

"The Shroud of Turin adds new, empirical and repeatable evidence for the resurrection, as the best explanation for such data as the strange disappearance, the absence of decomposition, the lack of unwrapping and the quasi-photographic image caused by a probable scorch from the dead body of Jesus." http://www.garyhabermas.com/articles/J_ ... singer.htm

tetelesti wrote:Here's a couple of articles regarding the Shroud of Turin by Gary Habermas that support it's authenticity. I don't believe the shroud is genuine because I can't understand why God would allow such an image to exist. Look at the bronze serpent that was eventually destroyed because it became an object of worship, the Shroud of Turin is no different. It's a mystery for sure and one that could have demonic inspiration, especially if you look at it from an ecumenical perspective.

"Even this very brief look at several aspects of the shroud of Turin reveals that it has much significance for Biblical studies. Scientific inquiry reveals that there is little chance that it is a fake. In particular, experiments show that there is no foreign substance that could account for the image." http://www.garyhabermas.com/articles/J_ ... icance.htm

"The Shroud of Turin adds new, empirical and repeatable evidence for the resurrection, as the best explanation for such data as the strange disappearance, the absence of decomposition, the lack of unwrapping and the quasi-photographic image caused by a probable scorch from the dead body of Jesus."

http://www.garyhabermas.com/articles/J_ ... singer.htm

Telelesti, there is a difference between images and statues and graven images.
Why would God leave the shroud behind for us? Definately not for us to worship it and most Christians know this.
Images and statues are not to be worshipped but to remind us of the supernatural . This is what God intended them for, as God himself commanded the building and placement of images in Solomon's temple.

Exodus 25:18-22; 26:1,31 - for example, God commands the making of the image of a golden cherubim. This heavenly image, of course, is not worshiped by the Israelites. Instead, the image disposes their minds to the supernatural and draws them to God.

The cherubim are the second highest order of Angels in Gods kingdom.

Ask yourself why Jesus allowed Thomas to place his hand in Jesus's side to allow him to believe (though he did get a loving admonishment from The Lord ).

It is in perfect Character with our lord who loves us so much to leave something like the shroud as another piece of tangible evidence for this day and age.

bippy123 wrote:Telelesti, there is a difference between images and statues and graven images.
Why would God leave the shroud behind for us? Definately not for us to worship it and most Christians know this.
Images and statues are not to be worshipped but to remind us of the supernatural . This is what God intended them for, as God himself commanded the building and placement of images in Solomon's temple.

Exodus 25:18-22; 26:1,31 - for example, God commands the making of the image of a golden cherubim. This heavenly image, of course, is not worshiped by the Israelites. Instead, the image disposes their minds to the supernatural and draws them to God.

The cherubim are the second highest order of Angels in Gods kingdom.

Ask yourself why Jesus allowed Thomas to place his hand in Jesus's side to allow him to believe (though he did get a loving admonishment from The Lord ).

It is in perfect Character with our lord who loves us so much to leave something like the shroud as another piece of tangible evidence for this day and age.

It's not most Christian that I'm necessarily thinking about, it's christendom and all it's false gospels. The Lord left us His word, which states "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness." What could we possibly have to gain from the Shroud of Turin? It's not mentioned in scripture and is unnecessary for salvation. I'd rather put my faith in the sure word of prophecy than an old piece of cloth. Remember that anti-christ translated means "in place of Christ", so he comes in the character and likeness of Christ. And what does anti-christ require? that they worship the image of the beast.

"A Vatican researcher has uncovered evidence that the order, which was brutally suppressed in 1305 by King Philip IV of France and Pope Clement V, guarded and venerated the Shroud."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... hroud.html

"This is the second commandment given to us by Yahweh, so why would the Messiah, Yahshua, always given to His father’s will, leave behind an image of Himself for us to worship? (Below, veneration of the Shroud)" http://thetalkingpot.wordpress.com/2013 ... -of-turin/

tetelesti wrote:

bippy123 wrote:Telelesti, there is a difference between images and statues and graven images.
Why would God leave the shroud behind for us? Definately not for us to worship it and most Christians know this.
Images and statues are not to be worshipped but to remind us of the supernatural . This is what God intended them for, as God himself commanded the building and placement of images in Solomon's temple.

Exodus 25:18-22; 26:1,31 - for example, God commands the making of the image of a golden cherubim. This heavenly image, of course, is not worshiped by the Israelites. Instead, the image disposes their minds to the supernatural and draws them to God.

The cherubim are the second highest order of Angels in Gods kingdom.

Ask yourself why Jesus allowed Thomas to place his hand in Jesus's side to allow him to believe (though he did get a loving admonishment from The Lord ).

It is in perfect Character with our lord who loves us so much to leave something like the shroud as another piece of tangible evidence for this day and age.

It's not most Christian that I'm necessarily thinking about, it's christendom and all it's false gospels. The Lord left us His word, which states "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness." What could we possibly have to gain from the Shroud of Turin? It's not mentioned in scripture and is unnecessary for salvation. I'd rather put my faith in the sure word of prophecy than an old piece of cloth. Remember that anti-christ translated means "in place of Christ", so he comes in the character and likeness of Christ. And what does anti-christ require? that they worship the image of the beast.

"A Vatican researcher has uncovered evidence that the order, which was brutally suppressed in 1305 by King Philip IV of France and Pope Clement V, guarded and venerated the Shroud."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... hroud.html

"This is the second commandment given to us by Yahweh, so why would the Messiah, Yahshua, always given to His father’s will, leave behind an image of Himself for us to worship? (Below, veneration of the Shroud)" http://thetalkingpot.wordpress.com/2013 ... -of-turin/

Look, this is a discussion of the shroud of turin, not a discussion of sola scriptura. I'm sure u can discuss that in the theology or bible and scripture section. I'm gonna stick mainly with the shroud here.

bippy123 wrote: Look, this is a discussion of the shroud of turin, not a discussion of sola scriptura. I'm sure u can discuss that in the theology or bible and scripture section. I'm gonna stick mainly with the shroud here.

I wasn't speaking of sola scriptura, but since you mentioned it....given just the bible how could you become anything other than a bible believing Christian?

Regardless, the point I was making is in regards to the shroud, and the possibility of it's misuse for idol worship. So if Jesus did leave His image on the shroud, then what would be the point? So we could draw division amongst ourselves? I don't care about the shroud and that's my point, we have God's word which is sufficient.

Jesus = Fully God & Fully Man
Bible = Fully Written by God & Fully Written by Man
Sola Scriptura

Another good article on the shroud by Stephen jones detailing the forensic evidence.

http://theshroudofturin.blogspot.com/20 ... ounds.html

So if Jesus did leave His image on the shroud, then what would be the point?

How about as an extraordinary demonstration of His miraculous power and ability, and a sign that Jesus was God Himself, miraculously Resurrected in a way with without explanation - even true in a day of exceptional scientific scrutiny and analysis - a most powerful witness to God's power and credibility by Jesus' claims to be God.

I don't care about the shroud and that's my point, we have God's word which is sufficient.

But that's not what JESUS said: "So Jesus said to him, “Unless you see signs and wonders you will not believe.” (John 4:48) Some people need much more than to be just told to "believe!" In fact, much of the thrust of this forum is predicated upon that truth.

Think of all the times in Scripture where God gave witness of His miraculous power, working through His prophets and apostles who claimed to represent Him:

"Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know." (Acts 2:22)

(Before approaching the elders of Israel to tell them God had appeared to him in the Burning Bush) "Moses answered, “What if they do not believe me or listen to me and say, ‘The Lord did not appear to you’?” (note that the Lord didn't say that merely relating what God had said would be sufficient) Then the Lord said to him, “What is that in your hand?” “A staff,” he replied. The Lord said, “Throw it on the ground.” "Moses threw it on the ground and it became a snake, and he ran from it. Then the Lord said to him, “Reach out your hand and take it by the tail.” So Moses reached out and took hold of the snake and it turned back into a staff in his hand. “This,” said the Lord, “is so that they may believe that the Lord, the God of their fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has appeared to you.”

"So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace BY enabling them to do miraculous signs and wonders." (Acts 14:3)

"Therefore I glory in Christ Jesus in my service to God. I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the Gentiles to obey God by what I have said and done— by the power of signs and miracles, through the power of the Spirit." (Romans 15:17-18)

"The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with utmost patience, with signs and wonders and mighty works." (2 Corinthians 12:12)

"This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it (HOW?) by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will. " (Hebrews 2:3-4)

God does not call people to a BLIND faith, as He abundantly gives plentiful evidences of His power, love and mercy (see Romans 1), but many choose to suppress or ignore these. But it's not as if He has "left Himself without witness."

Philip, it has humbled many a researcher and brought many people on the initial path towards God. I wonder where former unbelievers like Mark Antonacci and August Accetta would be without their initial curiousity about the shroud?
They would probably both still be agnostics today.
Yet none of them ever worshipped the shroud. They just understood what the shroud attested to.
The greatest event in human history.

Bippy, many people here owe you thanks for alerting us to evidences about the Shroud that popular media never publishes or broadcasts. As only casually aware of its evidence, and before reading some of your posts, I was very skeptical - as I know how the church long had closets full of "pieces of the cross" and other relics. But there are extraordinary evidences and scientific observations about the Shroud that are unparalleled by any artifact I've ever read about. The 3-D dimensionality of the image, its negative, the fact that the blood contact points remain unbroken - these are all astounding. And yet, for centuries, the Church just "happened" to have this artifact and they considered it to be from Jesus - WAY before anyone knew these other amazing and inexplicable things.

Philip wrote:Bippy, many people here owe you thanks for alerting us to evidences about the Shroud that popular media never publishes or broadcasts. As only casually aware of its evidence, and before reading some of your posts, I was very skeptical - as I know how the church long had closets full of "pieces of the cross" and other relics. But there are extraordinary evidences and scientific observations about the Shroud that are unparalleled by any artifact I've ever read about. The 3-D dimensionality of the image, its negative, the fact that the blood contact points remain unbroken - these are all astounding. And yet, for centuries, the Church just "happened" to have this artifact and they considered it to be from Jesus - WAY before anyone knew these other amazing and inexplicable things.

Thanks Philip, its an amazing relic, but we have all participated on this forum and dug up some good info.I never heard of the shroud myself before 2009. Its ironic that it was brought to my attention by a bunch of loud atheists who thought that a scientist debunked it back then.
The shroud isnt 100% proof but I dont think God will ever give us 100% proof as there would then be no need for faith.
It is another potential piece in the Christian appologists arsenal to use and its a tangible object that can be seen and studied.

Just imagine what would have happened to the apostle Thomas when he wanted to put his hand in Jesus's side if Jesus said no to him? Jesus out of his mercy and love allowed Thomas to touch and handle him, but then also admonished him lightly and lovingly. As you said Philip the bible is filled with miracles to help the believers along their walk in this world.

Philip wrote:

So if Jesus did leave His image on the shroud, then what would be the point?

How about as an extraordinary demonstration of His miraculous power and ability, and a sign that Jesus was God Himself, miraculously Resurrected in a way with without explanation - even true in a day of exceptional scientific scrutiny and analysis - a most powerful witness to God's power and credibility by Jesus' claims to be God.

It's interesting that the bible gives no physical description of Jesus, only that he was comely in appearance. The bible makes no reference to the shroud. Jesus or rather the living Word is inscribe in paper not a piece of cloth. The true Logos.

I don't care about the shroud and that's my point, we have God's word which is sufficient.

But that's not what JESUS said: "So Jesus said to him, “Unless you see signs and wonders you will not believe.” (John 4:48) Some people need much more than to be just told to "believe!" In fact, much of the thrust of this forum is predicated upon that truth.

Your interpretation of John 4:48 is backwards. You need to finish the thought by advancing a couple passages.

In it's full context:

"So Jesus said to him, "Unless you people see signs and wonders, you simply will not believe. The royal official said to Him, "Sir, come down before my child dies." Jesus said to him, "Go; your son lives." The man believed the word that Jesus spoke to him and started off."

The man didn't believe because of sign and wonders, he believed because of the word Jesus spoke, the living Word of God. The majority of believers have never seen signs or wonders yet believe. Don't you think it strange that Jesus was admonishing them for needing signs and wonders?

Jesus said an evil generation seeks what? Signs and wonders. The words of Jesus ring true "Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."
Be blessed Philip.

God does not call people to a BLIND faith, as He abundantly gives plentiful evidences of His power, love and mercy (see Romans 1), but many choose to suppress or ignore these. But it's not as if He has "left Himself without witness."

Indeed He doesn't leave us with a blind faith, He left us with the more sure Word of prophecy.

Tetelesti, what you've written in no way refutes that God provides evidences for belief - as that is clear across Scripture. And is it not GOD Who supplied signs and wonders? What are the signs of an Apostle or Prophet? Truly, those who do not see the Scriptural value in apologetics and evidences GOD has provided - and that it is explained WHY He provided - do not know Scripture!

The man didn't believe because of sign and wonders, he believed because of the word Jesus spoke, the living Word of God. The majority of believers have never seen signs or wonders yet believe.

In the first place, the the Greek wording for "you" - used twice in the sentence ("“Unless you see signs and wonders you will not believe.”) is plural. And Scripture called it the healing of the official's son "a sign" ( "This was now the second sign that Jesus did when he had come from Judea to Galilee.).

Again:"how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard, 4 while GOD also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will." People are different. Unlike the Samaritans ("because of his words many more became believers"), the people of Galilee required signs and wonders. Those wanting signs and wonders, THAT HAD ALREADY BEEN GIVEN ABUNDANT EVIDENCE OF THE MIRACULOUS (from Jesus) BUT YET STILL REFUSED TO BELIEVE, only calling for more such signs/wonders - is what Jesus is rebuking as evil. Those desiring evidence that truly want to know the truth are not who this rebuke is aimed at.

Shroud not referenced by the Gospel? "Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb. He saw the linen cloths lying there, and the face cloth, which had been on Jesus' head, not lying with the linen cloths but folded up in a place by itself." (John 20:6-7 ESV)

Yea Philip and the head cloth is now in Spain and is called the sudarium of oveido.

There are over 125 points of congruence between the shroud and sudarium .
In a court of law it takes at least 25 points of congruence to make a match.
It's obvious to forensics experts that both cloths covered the same body at very close time intervals


http://theshroudofturin.blogspot.com/20 ... blood.html



In addition to "a notable similarity between both linens in the back part of the head, which match essentially in size, position, and genesis, which means that both contain vital blood" there is another place where "the blood stains on the back of both linens correspond" perfectly and that is "found on the two right and left lower corners on the Oviedo cloth" (it was folded twice):

"Bloodstains. The bloodstains have geometrically compatible sizes and have very similar positions on both linens. The stains are of human blood of the group AB. ... The stains produced from vital blood, those produced by the puncture wounds at the back of the neck, are the same on both linens. Remember that the linen of Oviedo was fastened to the head in the back with sharply pointed objects, perhaps thorns. The cloth fell on the left shoulder and upper part of the back of the person, and wrapped the left part of the face. This entire area that was touched by the cloth was completely bloody before blood flowed from the nose and mouth after death had occurred. There is a notable similarity between both linens in the back part of the head, which match essentially in size, position, and genesis, which means that both contain vital blood, or blood which flowed before the death of the victim. In addition, the blood stains on the back of both linens correspond, found on the two right and left lower corners on the Oviedo cloth." (Bennett, , 2001, p.85. Emphasis original)

found that "The frontal stains on the sudarium show seventy points of coincidence with the Shroud, and the rear side shows fifty" (my emphasis) :

"Dr Alan Whanger has studied the points of coincidence and relationship between the Shroud and hundreds of Byzantine paintings and representations of Christ, even using coins, from the sixth and seventh centuries. This was done using a system called Polarised Image Overlay Technique. His conclusion was that many of these icons and paintings were inspired by the image on the Shroud, which means that the Shroud must have been in existence in the sixth and seventh centuries. This coincides with Ian Wilson's theory that the Shroud was `rediscovered' in Edessa just before this. Dr Whanger applied the same image overlay technique to the sudarium, comparing it to the image and blood stains on the Shroud. Even he was surprised at the results. The frontal stains on the sudarium show seventy points of coincidence with the Shroud, and the rear side shows fifty. The only possible conclusion, according to this highly respected scientist, is that the sudarium covered the same face as the Turin Shroud. If this is so, and taking into account that it is impossible to deny that the sudarium has been in Oviedo since 1075, it casts a great shadow of doubt over the results of the Shroud's carbon dating." (Guscin, 1998, p.32).
4) "Exactly as in the case of the Shroud, whoever bled onto the Oviedo cloth was of the same comparatively rare AB blood group." While:

Philip wrote:Tetelesti, what you've written in no way refutes that God provides evidences for belief

I never stated that signs and wonders weren’t from God, I merely pointed out the fact that I don’t believe the Shroud is a sign. Why? Again because it can and did become an object of idolatry. If you reference the links I provided earlier you’d see a prominent figure bowing before the shroud. It's well documented that it did become an object of worship. Idols are a subject that scripture clearly forbids.

”And is it not GOD Who supplied signs and wonders? What are the signs of an Apostle or Prophet?”

Signs are a confirmation of God’s message. It gave authority to those who brought forth God’s word, the ultimate validation of their message. So were are the Apostles and Prophets these days? Nowhere…because the message has already been given. Obviously it will be given in the later days with the two messengers and the angel who circles the earth.

"Truly, those who do not see the Scriptural value in apologetics and evidences GOD has provided - and that it is explained WHY He provided - do not know Scripture!"

Hey are you zinging me here….

”In the first place, the the Greek wording for "you" - used twice in the sentence ("“Unless you see signs and wonders you will not believe.”) is plural. And Scripture called it the healing of the official's son "a sign" ( "This was now the second sign that Jesus did when he had come from Judea to Galilee.).”

Again your interpreting this incorrectly, so lets go back a few verses this time and see what’s really being stated:

John 4:39-48 “From that city many of the Samaritans believed in Him because of the word of the woman who testified, "He told me all the things that I have done." So when the Samaritans came to Jesus, they were asking Him to stay with them; and He stayed there two days. Many more believed because of His word; and they were saying to the woman, "It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world."…. So when He came to Galilee, the Galileans received Him, having seen all the things that He did in Jerusalem at the feast; for they themselves also went to the feast….When he heard that Jesus had come out of Judea into Galilee, he went to Him and was imploring Him to come down and heal his son; for he was at the point of death. So Jesus said to him, "Unless you people see signs and wonders, you simply will not believe."

It’s apparent that Jesus was validating His message through signs and wonders, yet He was still admonishing the people because they were resistant to His testimony, so much so that scripture shows how the Samaritans believed Him simply through Jesus’ testimony. Do you understand the significance of this?

The man, whose son Jesus did heal, believed not through signs or wonders but from what? Jesus' testimony...

"Jesus said to him, "Go; your son lives." The man believed the word that Jesus spoke to him and started off."

So how do you explain this? Your telling me the man needed signs and wonders to believe... yet Jesus never gave him a sign. It's clear from scripture that he believed solely on the words of Jesus.

You originally referenced a single passage of John 4:48 to support your claim, but you took it out of context. Remember a text separated from its co-text is a pretext. Mormons and JW’s love to do this sort of thing, supporting claims out of a single passage. I’d rather have the full counsel of God, which is our shield against false teaching.

"Shroud not referenced by the Gospel? "Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb. He saw the linen cloths lying there, and the face cloth, which had been on Jesus' head, not lying with the linen cloths but folded up in a place by itself.”

This isn’t a support from scripture. Maybe if the bible stated something along the lines of “and the cloth had imprinted His image” or maybe “and on the linen was left a mark”. Your imposing your own presupposition, making something out of nothing.

You didn’t really address any of the points I made prior concerning the scriptural references I provided. I won’t reiterate them here, but if you wish to convince me of your position, then please give me an exegetical examination as to their correct interpretation.

Be blessed Philip...

Your telling me the man needed signs and wonders to believe... yet Jesus never gave him a sign. It's clear from scripture that he believed solely on the words of Jesus.

I never said that the official needed signs and wonders - but clearly some DID need more than mere words (Jesus confirmed that) - and they were provided such as well. And the man in question was not the only person being addressed (thus the plural "you."). And certainly many today need more than just to be told to "believe!" That is all I am saying. Evidence is important for many to believe - and you've got a whole forum of guys here that will attest to that. But no matter the power of the evidence, our faith must still be placed in JESUS. Just because some wrongly worship things connected with our faith, does not diminish the One who is the Author of it, nor the persuasive power of the evidence He provides.