Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

[abelcainsbrother]

We are sheep and Jesus is our shepherd and sheep do alot of dumb things but the Shepherd still takes care of them,protecting them,making sure if they wonder off he can find them,etc.Nobody is perfect or good and we must remember this but Jesus himself takes up our slack,it is Amazing Grace,and unmerited favor that we have from him.Those who expect perfection in Christians need to examine themselves because I assure you somewhere in their life they are failing,Satan gets us with different things according to who we are and even Apostle Paul himself had a thorn in the flesh,as a matter of fact God will and can deliver a person from anything but often will leave something in our lives that we struggle with and it is to keep us humble and not allow us to get self righteous,yet people still will overlook their faults they think are no big deal and judge somebody else,When we should really all be together and praying for one another and growing in the Lord together and trying to help restore somebody who has fallen instead of just judging them and thinking you are better than them in your walk with God.This is not directly directed at anybody it is just something that I think needs to be remembered and brought up.

[crochet1949]

Yes, you're right.

[LittleHamster]

Sorry folks, I've got the day off so....

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Today's Question: Spot the difference in these 2 examples

Example 1 - under 'the law'
Man "A" walks down the street and accidentally bumps into man "B". An altercation arises and man "A", in a fit of rage, stabs man "B" in the head. Police arrive and arrest man "A".

Example 2 - saved by Grace
Man "A" walks down the street and accidentally bumps into man "B". An altercation arises and man "A", in a fit of rage, stabs man "B" in the head. Police arrive and arrest man "A".



Difference ?
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Answer:

In example 1, Man "A" gets charged with attempted murder and subsequently sentenced to life without parole.

In example 2, police realize Man "B" is wanted terrorist responsible for the death of thousands and on his way to kill thousands more. Man "A" (who is under grace) is hailed a hero ! for what he has done, given the keys to the city, 10 medal's of honor, 2 million dollars reward and eventually becomes leader of the country. Man "A" falls to the ground and says "Thank you lord, I screwed up and you looked after me. Have mercy, I am a sinner"

Man "A" was Justified by criminal law, was Justified by family, was Justified by friends, was Justified by everyone in his country but most importantly ....he is Justified before God.

[crochet1949]

Without the added information -- they are Both guilty and deserve the same justice.

Every person who accepts Christ as Savior is justified before God. But that fact does Not negate punishment for sinful acts. It's just that those acts will NOT send us to hell. The 'saved' person will answer for his/ her actions whether they be great or horrendous. Under Normal life situations -- a born-again believer probably Won't be committing horrendous acts, though. And That person Does have the Holy Spirit to guide / direct in Every area of their lives.

[Kurieuo]

Today's Question: Spot the difference in these 2 examples

Example 1 - under 'the law'
Man "A" walks down the street and accidentally bumps into man "B". An altercation arises and man "A", in a fit of rage, stabs man "B" in the head. Police arrive and arrest man "A".

Example 2 - saved by Grace
Man "A" walks down the street and accidentally bumps into man "B". An altercation arises and man "A", in a fit of rage, stabs man "B" in the head. Police arrive and arrest man "A".



Difference ?

In example 1, Man "A" gets charged with attempted murder and subsequently sentenced to life without parole.

In example 2, police realize Man "B" is wanted terrorist responsible for the death of thousands and on his way to kill thousands more. Man "A" (who is under grace) is hailed a hero ! for what he has done, given the keys to the city, 10 medal's of honor, 2 million dollars reward and eventually becomes leader of the country. Man "A" falls to the ground and says "Thank you lord, I screwed up and you looked after me. Have mercy, I am a sinner"

Man "A" was Justified by criminal law, was Justified by family, was Justified by friends, was Justified by everyone in his country but most importantly ....he is Justified before God.

If they're meant to be examples of Law and Grace in Christianity, they're actually quite terrible.
Where'd they come from?

[LittleHamster]

If they're meant to be examples of Law and Grace in Christianity, they're actually quite terrible.
Where'd they come from?

Made them up ! I couldn't think of anything better at the time. I was was trying to make a point though...somewhere in there.


Edit:

one of the points was that no matter how bad a situation you might find yourself in, Grace can turn it into a triumphant victory

the other point in the example was that man "A" in ex. 2 was justified by Grace so Sin is no longer counted against him in the eyes of God. Grace also helped him be justified in the eyes of humanity - a double bonus ! (although he still will, in most cases, reap what he sows while on earth)

so there you have it, two identical situations, two apparently identical men with identical actions and identical thoughts and two totally differenet outcomes --- with one of them eternal saved by Grace, the other not so fortunate.


Stay tuned for the next episode of "Who Wants to be a Salvationaire" !

[crochet1949]

LittleHamster

Are you by chance familiar with Bill Gothard seminars from Years ago? Your scenario sounds like something I'd read from his material all those years ago. Back then -- in his material -- he'd pose a scenario and then a person would give Their way of resolving it -- and then he'd give the Rest of the story and how different the conclusion would end up. That's at least from My memory from all those years ago. My parent's had been a fan of his Way back when. Just wondering.

[LittleHamster]

LittleHamster

Are you by chance familiar with Bill Gothard seminars from Years ago? Your scenario sounds like something I'd read from his material all those years ago. Back then -- in his material -- he'd pose a scenario and then a person would give Their way of resolving it -- and then he'd give the Rest of the story and how different the conclusion would end up. That's at least from My memory from all those years ago. My parent's had been a fan of his Way back when. Just wondering.

I've heard the name before but I'm not familiar with him (although I just did a quick read up). I can roughly see where he's coming from. This reminds me of a (totally unrelated) preacher I occasionally listen to. For newcomers, he would always bring up the line (and scream out):

"So you've been going to that other church for 20 years and haven't received the holy spirit....what's wrong with ya !"

And everyone in the congregation would scream out.....Hallelujah !

[crochet1949]

I wouldn't be going back to that church.

[LittleHamster]

I wouldn't be going back to that church.

LoL, Thanks. I reckon its just a case of basic Charismatic-Preaching-and-Mind-Control 101.

I notice a lot of people/preachers tend to do it (without meaning to) on a subconscious level. I may have even done on this forum !

[crochet1949]

I'm definitely Not a Charismatic-Preaching person.

I grew up in a big , Bible-teaching church. There were times when there was definitely the Holy Spirit at work in the auditorium. But it was in a serious , hush-hush respectfulness -- people were accepting Christ and coming forward for counseling. A wonderful church service.

And I've Also been in a church where the pastor was trying to 'produce' emotional responses from the congregation. And people Were going forward in fairly emotional states of mind. I'd been sitting in the back of the church and an older couple sitting a few rows ahead -- the man started mumbling out loud. Had never heard that in a church previously. Never went back there.

The two situations were very different.

The term 'mind control' -- the only time I've heard that phrase is on another Forum -- those who didn't like any form of Biblical training of children would use that phrase to describe what they felt Christian parents were trying to do with their children. The term 'brain-washing' was also used. I had countered back that parents Normally teach their children that which important to them -- passing along a morals / ethics foundation based on Biblical principals. It's neither brain-washing Nor mind control.

Just sharing -- not meant in a derogatory way.

[abelcainsbrother]

I think that this has already been touched upon in this thread but like it or not,not everybody that claims they are a Christian has been born again and these are the people who willingly live in sin and in a non-Christian way all while claiming to believe in Jesus and they may can even quote scripture and these are the people that fall away and renounce their faith. There are others though in the church even sometimes they don't fall away and they stay and act their whole life like a Christian.

Just because a person prays the sinners prayer does not mean they have been born again either although praying the sinners prayer is how we are saved and born again. This is the problem in the church,we just assume everybody that prayed the sinners prayer got born again and maybe most of them did,but not all. Only God knows who truly has been born again but it is very important that it be taught about knowing you have been born again.

Salvation is not just putting on an act,going to church,singing in the choir,teaching sunday school,etc and anybody can put on an act and act like a born again Christian and we would never know,except God would. It needs to be taught that we are changed on the inside when we are born again,we do not change ourselves and just go through the motions of being a Christian,no,we are changed to serve God in a way that we know we did not change ourself and if you have not experienced this? You are not saved and have not been born again and you need to seek Jesus and find out why.

Salvation is a miracle and the bible tells us it is one of the greatest miracles God does. I mean to take a sinner and turn them into an on fire for Jesus Christian because of being born again is a miracle. They could've been in a gang,on drugs,alcoholic,etc and yet are totally changed and even delivered because they were truly born again. Of course it just might be a person we would consider a good person also who might already seem like Christian because they are just a good person,but a person knows it when they have truly been born again and they will never forget it,no matter the trials they may go through in their Christian walk.

Nobody can lose their salvation it will never happen to a person who has truly been born again,it makes no difference that even they themselves sin sometimes these people will not ever lose their salvation or renounce their faith,they may even have cold spells where they may stop going to church,etc so that it seems like they have backslidden but they have'nt the Holy Spirit is still only letting them go so far away. Salvation is a blood covenant and blood covenants are not broken with God regardless of sin.God knows we are sinners,he knows we are not perfect people before he ever saved us and he will never let us go. Salvation is a gift that God gave us through Jesus that none of us deserved but God did it anyway because he loved us.

There are consequences for Christians who live in sin especially the more important position God gave them and if they mess up and fall into temptation they will reap what they sow like losing their ministry,etc however it does not mean they are not a Christian or have lost their salvation we just reap what we sow and God is not mocked. We brought it on ourselves and so the person won't blame God,they will know it was them that made the mistake and if they repent God may even restore them. This is just an example but there are many other ways that willingly sinning can bring problems on us.

But no Christian who has been born again will want to willingly live in sin,however this does'nt mean they can't slip up. It could happen at anytime to us all.I believe that sometimes God will even allow sin in our life to keep us humble,he could deliver us at anytime but chooses not to because he does'nt want us to ever get to a point where we think we are perfect and it can happen. There is always more room to grow as a Christian until we are in heaven.But there is no losing your salvation if you have truly been born again.

[RickD]

ACB wrote:
There are others though in the church even sometimes they don't fall away and they stay and act their whole life like a Christian.

Ahh...the fruit inspectors...

Exactly HOW is it that one acts like a Christian?

[SoCalExile]

The fly in the soup of LS and holiness teachers is Romans 7:19, where Paul admits to "practicing evil". They try to get around this by saying that Paul is talking about life before justification, but the fact is the Greek is in present tense, so he's not talking about his past. Also, if you follow the "Romans road" i.e. the logical progression in Romans that parallels a Christian life, justification came in Romans 3-4, chapter 5 onward is about sanctification and discipleship.

[RickD]

The fly in the soup of LS and holiness teachers is Romans 7:19, where Paul admits to "practicing evil". They try to get around this by saying that Paul is talking about life before justification, but the fact is the Greek is in present tense, so he's not talking about his past. Also, if you follow the "Romans road" i.e. the logical progression in Romans that parallels a Christian life, justification came in Romans 3-4, chapter 5 onward is about sanctification and discipleship.

So, taking Romans 7:19 into account, either:

1) Christians do practice evil, while remaining saved.

2) Paul is a heretic, and isn't saved.

I've said this before, sometimes I feel like a walking civil war. The new man vs. the old man. The things I don't want to do, I do. I struggle with sin constantly.