Evidence for God from Science

Philip wrote:Paul, you have misunderstood - you've been clear you've speculated. It's no different than things Heiser has written about - feeling out what the Scriptural texts can reasonably support, and what other credible sources, or credible aspects of secondary sources might lend credibility to the speculation. Everyone here for years knows you take Scripture as being inspired by God.

I wouldn't say EVERYONE thinks that, but I know that you guys do

RickD wrote:

PaulS wrote:
As long as we don't let our emotions and our zeal to protective what WE think is correct doctrine, get the better of us.

That's the thing that gets me. B.W. is so sure of his DNA manipulation doctrine, even though it's based on extra biblical arguments. Doctrine should be based on what's in scripture.

With me on this issue, I don't hold to any doctrine(Sethite, Rulers, etc.). I just think the text, taken in context leads to the conclusion that sons of God in Genesis 6, have to be humans.

I follow early church thought as well as ancient Hebrew thought on this subject and look for the signs that are before our eyes and simply ask hard questions and am not afraid to think outside the human pride box along with deep prayer.

Let's look at..

The human only tradition came much later and was based off of the Second book of Adam and Eve in order to to promote a works based salvation mystical approach to become sons of god. Justifies Necromancy, grave soaking, ancestral worship, and mysticism. It also was used remove supernatural aspect of the OT to fit a certain form of Sanhedrinism view on the OT and support mysticism.

When Jesus said in Luke 17:26 "And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man.." NASB

Jesus said - And just as it happened in the days of Noah....

Gen 6:1-8, "Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them, 2 that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose.

3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."

4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.

5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6 The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 The LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them." 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD." NASB

For the Sethite view to be literally true, then where is Cain's line today? Does it exist, today, NOW?

Answer is NO.

Then, who are the human beings, or Leaders, that are going after whom to corrupt humanity - after all Jesus said in Luke 17:26; "And just as it happened in the days of Noah..." NASB

Just as it happened means what it means. Period.

There is no linage to Cain's line anymore, is there?

The sons of God phrase does not denote human beings or leaders who corrupted themselves with modern day Cain's daughters by means sexual union to make Nephilim... in those days and afterwards...

After all, Gen 6:4 says this: "The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them."

Hmmm bible indeed states clearly - Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward...

Where in the bible does it says Cain's line survived the flood so that also afterwards happened?

These verses state whom these were afterward as well as their height - Num 13:33; Deut 2:20-21, Deut 3:11; 1Sa 17:4; 2Sa 21:15-22...

Did King David strike down a son of Cain? or a perfectly proportional giant being named Goliath?

Note this: Very tall human beings due to Genetic's have many health issues, tumors etc, and often body cannot support the structural weight properly. See Gigantism - Health Line

These are not Nephilim in any sense of the word. Which the pictograph letters of ancient Hebrewְ נִפיִלים means: the Seed, who bear the words, of new order, to shepherd forth, order of chaos...

This fits what Gen 6:5 states, "Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually...." NASB

So, what we see in Jesus's own words in Luke 17:26, "And just as it happened in the days of Noah..."

We will see the beginnings and plannings of a new type of improved human being being made, While this begins we will also see the wickedness of man becoming very great on the earth, and see a switch that justifies intent of the thoughts of the human heart heart becoming more twisted than ever. This fits all prophecy of the end times.

Are there plans to genetically modify human beings for the betterment of society as stated in medical journals? YES!

Are human beings mixing human DNA with Pig DNA in order to grow human organs in these pigs to harvest for organ transplants? YES!

Does mixing of entirely two different species DNA being developed? YES?

Are food beings GMO's? YES!

Are the advances in human robotics accelerated and these robots becoming more lifelike and able to think on their own?
YES!

Where and from whom did this technology come from?

What noble sounding reason are such things being justified to do? Ezekiel 28:16 says what?

For Jesus' words to be true in Luke 17:26: "And just as it happened in the days of Noah..." there will be similar things going on midst a time when things appear normal... yet are not.

For Jesus' words to be absolutely true according to the Sethite or Human origin view, would mean that there must be a Cain's line still around, yet, all of Cain's seed died in the flood, and, next, we should have God fearing men running after Cain’s daughters for sex in order to bring about humanities corruption to usher in one the days Jesus mentions.

That can't be what Jesus' means by “And just as it happened in the days of Noah…” can it? Where it the scriptural proof for this? Where is Cain's line and daughters enticing modern Sethites of today? Really????

That reason alone discredits the Sethite Human origin view of who the sons of god are in Gen 6:1-4...

Other non-biblical writings from ancient writers known to have histories of history available in their time which we do not have today support that the sons of God were indeed fallen angels who sought to corrupt humanity to stop Gen 3:15 from happening.

How the fallen angels did so, is not clear but with Jesus own words - And just as it happened in the days of Noah - we can see genetic modifications are real and indeed happening as well as people getting worse and worse thinking they are improving humanity.

The signs are there and becoming plain sight: "so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man.."Luke 17:26 NASB

One of the days, plural days, meaning two appearing. One is when he appears in the rapture to be those on watch for him to be their ark and the other day - is mentioned in Rev 19:15,16.

All I can do is point out what is happening before our eyes that is happening on a worldwide scale as seen in the bible concerning the end times that fit no other time in human history... due to the Genesis 6:1-4 warning Jesus gave in Luke 17:26

i did not mention CERN nor the rise of the Occult in the world nor did I mention the actual push for global government...on the scale it is today...

Gen 6:11-13, "Now the earth was corrupt in the sight of God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12 God looked on the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth. 13 Then God said to Noah, "The end of all flesh has come before Me; for the earth is filled with violence because of them; and behold, I am about to destroy them with the earth..." NASB

All flesh includes all of Cain's line...and all that was corrupted...

For the human view of sons of God mentioned in Gen 6:1-13 to be true, then Cains' line survived so that Jesus words in Luke 17:26 to hold true. The bible does not support the human origin view at all.

The sons of God in Gen 6:1-13 refer to fallen angels... and Satan as the king over all the sons of pride.
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And there is more to consider...

Question, where in Genesis 6:1-13 or in the entire bible does it say that Noah was a preacher of righteousness besides in 2 Peter 2:5?

2 Peter 2:5, "…and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly…" NASB

Next is a two part Question: Where did Peter get this information and why did the Holy Spirit allow it to be shared in 2 Peter and Jude?

Please notice…

The Book of Jasher, Chapter 5:6-11

6 And after the lapse of many years, in the four hundred and eightieth year of the life of Noah, when all those men, who followed the Lord had died away from amongst the sons of men, and only Methuselah was then left, God said unto Noah and Methuselah, saying, 7 Speak ye, and proclaim to the sons of men, saying, Thus saith the Lord, return from your evil ways and forsake your works, and the Lord will repent of the evil that he declared to do to you, so that it shall not come to pass.

8 For thus saith the Lord, Behold I give you a period of one hundred and twenty years; if you will turn to me and forsake your evil ways, then will I also turn away from the evil which I told you, and it shall not exist, saith the Lord.

9 And Noah and Methuselah spoke all the words of the Lord to the sons of men, day after day, constantly speaking to them.10 But the sons of men would not hearken to them, nor incline their ears to their words, and they were stiffnecked.

11 And the Lord granted them a period of one hundred and twenty years, saying, If they will return, then will God repent of the evil, so as not to destroy the earth.

The Holy Spirit allowed Peter to write that Noah was a preacher of righteousness is confirmed in the Book Jasher and that fallen angels are what is meant by the sons of God in the book of Enoch in regards to Gen 6:1-4.

So, there is some truth being conveyed and from texts like Jasher and Enoch quoted in the bible which point out that fallen angels are referred too Genesis chapter Six such 1 Peter 3:19,20, Jude 1:6 which begs the question:

Why would the Holy Spirit allow works such as the Book of Jasher, Enoch and even Jubilees to be quoted in the bible if they lacked veracity?

The Holy Spirit allowed these to be quoted in Peter’s and Jude’s letters to the church. Ponder that…

Next there is more:

We also have the Babylonian Talmud and the older Midrash commentaries on Genesis that also mentions that Noah did preach to those around him. For example - The Babylonian Talmud reference reads:

"...the righteous Noah rebuked them, urging, 'Repent; for if not, the Holy One, blessed be He, will bring a deluge upon you and cause your bodies to float upon the water like gourds, as it is written, He is light [i.e., floats] upon the waters. Moreover, ye shall be taken as a curse for all future generations, as it is written, their portion is cursed' in the earth." (Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 108a)

The early Jewish Midrash on Genesis states:

"Noah planted cedars and cut them down. On being asked, 'Why are you doing this? ' he replied: 'The Lord of the universe has informed me that He will bring a Flood in the world.' Said they [his contemporaries] to him: If a Flood does come, it will come only upon your father's house!' R. Abba interpreted: The Holy One, blessed be He, said: 'One herald arose for me in the generation of the Flood, viz. Noah.'" (Genesis Midrash Rabbah 30.7).

So there is outside verification that Peter is correct that Noah was indeed a preacher of righteousness. However, Should we discount Peter's word that Noah was such a preacher because it is not stated elsewhere in the bible as error?

Back to the Phrase - Days of Noah

Now back to Luke 17:26-37. Most people think that the phrase – as in the days of Noah is rather benign referring that only that the event will take people by surprised because all things at that time go on as normal. Of course, the events Jesus describes will come as a complete surprise but that is not all that is meant in the text.

Gen 6:5,11,12 says this about the days of Noah: “5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually…11 Now the earth was corrupt in the sight of God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12 God looked on the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth.” NASB

So, we have a time where wickedness was great upon the earth, the intent of the human heart is on evil- twisted, the earth was corrupt, filled with violence, and that all flesh corrupted their ways upon the earth.

In the last days Prophecies concerning these times, verifies that there is nothing at all benign about what Jesus meant in Luke 17:16-37 about the normalcy of marrying or going about one’s days, etc. Jesus words regarding the days of Noah also includes all flesh slowly becoming corrupt which can imply mixing of different species too.

This came about, according to Gen 6:1-13, by the fallen angels influencing humanity at that time in some way.

These sons of God are not Sethites or Human leaders mixing with the women of Cain’s family line. If so, then such mixing of races is a sin as it would be for a believer to marry a non-believer also would be classed as a horrible sin.

So, if a Believer marries a non-believer would their offspring would be classed as Nephilim so that the days of Noah Jesus spoke about matches the human origin view of Gen 6:1-13?

Of course not!

Did Cain have the same human DNA from Adam and Eve as Seth had?

If God’s mark changed Cain into utter corruptness then who is at fault for Sin?

Why would Paul write in Rom 5:12,14 that Sin came through Adam if Cain was the actual cause of corruption of humanity?

How could Seth’s line be so pure, and Rom 5:12.14 still be true?

These are big question folks need to ask themselves who hold to the human origin view of the sons of God mentioned in Gen 6:1-13.

Have a nice day!
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RickD wrote:

Stu wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

RickD wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:Does anyone care to address why the leader of the fallen angels, one banned from the Garden of Eden and cursed, would be allowed to be among the Sons of God in YHWH's heavenly assembly?

If you're talking about him in Job, the context shows why he was there. It's a story about Job. Satan was allowed access to Job, in order to show job's faithfulness.

Not that Satan was allowed access to Job, its that a fallen and cursed angel seems to be just waltzing in to God's assembly with God's Sons.

Yeah I also found that a bit odd.

Stu,

I find something odd that maybe you can help me understand. How can a YEC believe in the angel/human hybrid Nephilim theory, and stay consistent to one of the crucial arguments of YEC?

Let me explain. Many yecs including yourself, have said over and over, that evolution cannot be possible, because God created kinds. And each kind can only reproduce with its own kind. This is a crucial point that one must believe, if one is a YEC. Yet, when it comes to angels mating with humans, the entire "kind" argument gets tossed aside.

How do you account for that?

I'm not actually a YEC, I lean towards YEC and the gap theory.

Well the Bible doesn't say anything about angels, it only mentions animals when it comes to kinds.
Remember the Bible mentions multiple times that angels have taken human form and humans had no idea that they were angels. It even says that we are to entertain strangers for we no not if they may be angels.

We know they can eat, so who's to say that all the plumbing is not working as well.

This sums it up well:

Job 38:4  Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 
Job 38:5  Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 
Job 38:6  Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 
Job 38:7  When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? 

Pretty sure that mankind wasn't alive at the time God was creating the earth. Case closed.

Case closed for what?

I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that people weren't alive when the earth was created.

RickD wrote:Case closed for what?

I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that people weren't alive when the earth was created.

Am I in the wrong thread

I was referring to Genesis 6.

Gen 6:4  There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. 

That the sons of God in this case refers to angels mating with human woman.

Stu wrote:

RickD wrote:Case closed for what?

I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that people weren't alive when the earth was created.

Am I in the wrong thread

I was referring to Genesis 6.

Gen 6:4  There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. 

That the sons of God in this case refers to angels mating with human woman.

I don't think anyone in this thread disagrees with the observation that the term 'sons of god' can refer to angels, such as your Job 38 example.

Where the AH theory comes into conflict with Scripture is when people refer to fallen angels and Satan himself as 'sons of God'... for two reasons.
1. As has been pointed out numerous times in this thread, "fallen angels" are never referred to as 'sons of God' anywhere in Scripture.
2. Referring to "fallen angels" and Satan as "sons of God" comes into direct conflict with the teaching of Jesus in John 8:37-47.

The AH theory is a function of an intertestamental tradition, not Scripture.

I think we need to make a distinction between fallen angels and Satan not being Sons of God ANYMORE.
It seems at times that we are stating that they are, and never where, Sons of God, which is in accurate.

They lost their status as Sons of God when they rebelled.

PaulSacramento wrote:I think we need to make a distinction between fallen angels and Satan not being Sons of God ANYMORE.
It seems at times that we are stating that they are, and never where, Sons of God, which is in accurate.

They lost their status as Sons of God when they rebelled.

I think that's what's consistent with scripture. And I think that's what some of us have been trying to say. At one point, all angels were sons of God. Then those that fell, lost that title.

RickD wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:I think we need to make a distinction between fallen angels and Satan not being Sons of God ANYMORE.
It seems at times that we are stating that they are, and never where, Sons of God, which is in accurate.

They lost their status as Sons of God when they rebelled.

I think that's what's consistent with scripture. And I think that's what some of us have been trying to say. At one point, all angels were sons of God. Then those that fell, lost that title.

And I think we all agree with that.

RickD wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:I think we need to make a distinction between fallen angels and Satan not being Sons of God ANYMORE.
It seems at times that we are stating that they are, and never where, Sons of God, which is in accurate.

They lost their status as Sons of God when they rebelled.

I think that's what's consistent with scripture. And I think that's what some of us have been trying to say. At one point, all angels were sons of God. Then those that fell, lost that title.

Where in the Bible does it say that?

"Fallen angel" is a man-made term, it appears nowhere in the Bible. What does the Bible refer to 'fallen angels' as?

Are you saying that Satan and those that rebelled are not fallen or not angels?
The term "fallen angel" is given to those beings of God's realm that have fallen from grace.
We get the "fall" from Isaiah, Ezekiel and from Revelation.
It is implicit in scripture that divine beings fell from God's grace, we call those beings "angels", which means "messenger" but is used as a generic term for divine beings in God's realm.
Since these angels have fallen from God's grace, we call them "fallen angels".

Stu wrote:

RickD wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:I think we need to make a distinction between fallen angels and Satan not being Sons of God ANYMORE.
It seems at times that we are stating that they are, and never where, Sons of God, which is in accurate.

They lost their status as Sons of God when they rebelled.

I think that's what's consistent with scripture. And I think that's what some of us have been trying to say. At one point, all angels were sons of God. Then those that fell, lost that title.

Where in the Bible does it say that?

"Fallen angel" is a man-made term, it appears nowhere in the Bible. What does the Bible refer to 'fallen angels' as?

Are you asserting that demons (a Scriptural term) and Satan (another Scriptural term) are 'sons of God'?

Do you agree that the teaching of Jesus in John 8:37-47 directly contradicts the assertion that Satan is a child of God?

I think Stu's question is where in the bible does it state that Satan ( using him as an example) stopped being a Son of God?
I think we all agree that he was at one point, before his rebellion and fall, but Stu is questioning where in the bible it STATES specifically, that Satan stopped being a Son of God.

I think it is an issue of "title" and what it means to be a Son of God and the "parentage" of God over those that were His Sons and are no more.