The Law

[B. W.]

Gman, you are showing disregard to those you are addressing. How?

You come across as accusing them of not obeying the law when they actually do. It is by God’s grace is how they obey. The pride of religion swells the head and makes one a ballooned brained nit picker looking for nits to pick for the mere pleasure of lording rightness over them poor nits. We know you love the Torah version of the Law but it is the law giver that Jlay, PaulS, Rick, Zac are saying to love more than how many nits you pick to prove one loves God.

What you fail to see is that they do keep the law. They do so by Grace and not by the letter as you appear to be advocating. After all...

2 Co 3:6, 7, 8, 9 …who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life 7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. NKJV

That is the new Sabbath rest of grace we all share in now as believers in Christ. That is the true Sabbath rest we are to enter which Hebrews 4:4, 5, 6, 9. 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16c speaks of. Therefore, at an appointed time that is not now – the true Sabbath will be back as it is written:

Isa 66:22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth Which I will make shall remain before Me," says the LORD, "So shall your descendants and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass That from one New Moon to another, And from one Sabbath to another, All flesh shall come to worship before Me," says the LORD." NKJV

Think for a minute and learn how to do the Texas Two Step ... Does Passover fall on the same Solar calendar day each year? Does your own birthday? The answer is no and same goes for the Sabbath.

Now, taking a solar calendar year that commemorates the pagan Roman god of agriculture – Saturn and turning it into a Jewish work holiday – is that sin? Shouldn’t you be advocating to Congress to change the pagan name Saturday to something else to be righteous in God's sight? Shouldn't you actually count the days, one at a time per Lunar year, in order to honor the Sabbath as was once done -than to condemn folks for not honoring a day commemorating the pagan Roman god of agriculture?

The law exposes sin – does it not?

The true Sabbath will be restored in the days of the New Heavens/Earth. For now, everyone breaks it, that includes you; therefore, Thank You Lord for sending Jesus to heal us for that violation and saving us by grace, not by our nit picking works, least anyone should boast in their collection of nits. So we can now serve in the newness of the Spirit a day of rest prescribed as a shadow of the true restored one later to come…

No wonder Paul wrote the following:

Col 2:16, 17, "So don't let anyone judge you because of what you eat or drink. Don't let anyone judge you about holy days. I'm talking about special feasts and New Moons and Sabbath days. 17 They are only a shadow of the things that were going to come. But what is real is found in Christ." NIrV
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[jlay]

Again... You are confused.. G-d's commandments are for our direction... Christ did NOT cast them aside. Fulfulling G-d's laws does not mean that we simply toss them under the bus now. The "works of the law" does NOT mean following the law, it means turning the law into a legalistic means to achieve salvation. Don't forget what James said about faith and works.

Without question there is a great deal of confusion. God's commandments were for the covenant people Israel. They were given for a specific time, place and people. The Torah could not be any clearer on the matter.

James 1:21 Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.

That's a great verse, but what is your point? How does getting rid of moral filth equate to, "become a practicing Jew?"

James 1:25 But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.

Conflation. Using the "bold" feature doesn't help your case. Every use of the word law, command, obey, etc. you immediately implant "Torah." That is eisegesis not exegesis.

James 2:17-24, “Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, ‘You have faith, and I have works.’ Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, ‘Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.’ And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.”

Now you are conflating works to becoming a practicing OT Jew. Of course the plain reading of this text says no such thing. In fact it references Abraham who came before the Law was implemented. Or are you saying that we should all go and offer our children?

James 4:11 Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it.

Great prooftext. You seem unwilling to apply it to yourself however.

James 5:19-20, “Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.”

[/quote]
Again, a prooftext that simply is a question begging proposition on your part.

I think everyone can see that your interpretive method borders on cultic. Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons apply more consistent methods.

[PaulSacramento]

I think I am going to have to ask for clarification here, for a clear cut answer:
GMAN, If a Christian does NOT follow the Sabbath law, is he saved by "just" putting his faith in Christ?

Again the Sabbath is freedom.... When you work every day of the week it's called bondage. Even if you say that every day is devoted to Christ. That is simply nonsense, working is bondage that steals your joy and your time and burns you out causing you a slow death. As for it being a issue of salvation, it depends on how you use it. If you claim that following the sabbath makes you righteous, then it is a BAD thing. However, if you use it to worship G-d and refresh yourself and your family, then it can be used for good..

Again.. It's all how you perform it.. But the Sabbath law itself in NOT a legalistic law, it's a darn good one as I'm finding out..

Not sure if you answered my question...
Must we observe the Sabbath to be saved?
Also, must the Sabbath be Saturday? by that I mean from sunset on Friday to sunset on Saturday?

[PaulSacramento]

Interesting conversation at lunch:

Can you imagine if the only scriptures we had were those of the NT?

[Topanga]

Everyone... It can't be this hard to figure all this out, can it ?
This is very dis-heartening, and kind of a faith crasher.

[Kurieuo]

How is it a faith crasher?

[Gman]

Gman, you are showing disregard to those you are addressing. How?

You come across as accusing them of not obeying the law when they actually do. It is by God’s grace is how they obey. The pride of religion swells the head and makes one a ballooned brained nit picker looking for nits to pick for the mere pleasure of lording rightness over them poor nits. We know you love the Torah version of the Law but it is the law giver that Jlay, PaulS, Rick, Zac are saying to love more than how many nits you pick to prove one loves God.

What you fail to see is that they do keep the law. They do so by Grace and not by the letter as you appear to be advocating. After all...

Where did I ever question anybody if they were obeying the law or not? What I'm responding to is this notion that the law is now somehow dead, that is what they seem to be advocating.. I see this as a dangerous matter... Why? What actually separates from the atheists morally speaking from a Christian? If fact, if you would line up the righteousness of an unbeliever compared to a Christian, how are they different when it comes to pornography, rape, divorce, murder, theft, sexual sins, and the likes? In many cases they can be identical, in fact, in some ways I would often trust an atheist than I would a Christian. And that is a sad reality....

2 Co 3:6, 7, 8, 9 …who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life 7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. NKJV

I fail to see how this is a show stopper... In fact I've been studying many other verses that pertain to the so called "death" of G-d's laws and I'm finding them to be extremely weak. Did the Law of G-d come to an end? Is that really what Paul is teaching here in this verse? I don't think so... The convictions of the law most certainly bring death.. No question there. Why? Because of our sin... The law convicts us of our sin. In fact Paul brilliantly calls this the “Law of Sin and Death” (Romans 8:2). However, once we read the Law of G-d and realize it as truth, we then realize that we have sinned against G-d. It is when we realize our sin that we should understand that we deserve death. This is how the“Law of G-d” equates to the “ministry of death” according to Paul. It is by G-d’s law, and our sin that is against G-d’s law, that we understand that we need a savior from our sin that demands our death. And who is that? Jesus Christ. But not the obliteration of the law. The law is there to POINT us TO Christ.. If we can't convict ourselves of sin, how is that done then?

That is the new Sabbath rest of grace we all share in now as believers in Christ. That is the true Sabbath rest we are to enter which Hebrews 4:4, 5, 6, 9. 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16c speaks of.

Therefore, at an appointed time that is not now – the true Sabbath will be back as it is written:

Isa 66:22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth Which I will make shall remain before Me," says the LORD, "So shall your descendants and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass That from one New Moon to another, And from one Sabbath to another, All flesh shall come to worship before Me," says the LORD." NKJV

These verses do NOT imply that G-d's sabbath laws are now done away with.. In fact Lev 16:31 calls it a permanent covenant. Also how does working 7 days a week bring rest? Clinical studies have shown that our bodies and minds will burn out if we over work ourselves... Is talking a day of rest off really that bad?

Leviticus 16:31
It is a day of sabbath rest, and you must deny yourselves; it is a lasting ordinance.

Think for a minute and learn how to do the Texas Two Step ... Does Passover fall on the same Solar calendar day each year? Does your own birthday? The answer is no and same goes for the Sabbath.

Now, taking a solar calendar year that commemorates the pagan Roman god of agriculture – Saturn and turning it into a Jewish work holiday – is that sin? Shouldn’t you be advocating to Congress to change the pagan name Saturday to something else to be righteous in God's sight? Shouldn't you actually count the days, one at a time per Lunar year, in order to honor the Sabbath as was once done -than to condemn folks for not honoring a day commemorating the pagan Roman god of agriculture?

The law exposes sin – does it not/

The true Sabbath will be restored in the days of the New Heavens/Earth. For now, everyone breaks it, that includes you; therefore, Thank You Lord for sending Jesus to heal us for that violation and saving us by grace, not by our nit picking works, least anyone should boast in their collection of nits. So we can now serve in the newness of the Spirit a day of rest prescribed as a shadow of the true restored one later to come…

Ok.. Let's say hypothetically, even though we have loads of evidence from Biblical and non-Biblical sources about the Biblical calendar, that we cannot exactly know the dates.. Therefore since we can't know the dates we simply dump everything?? How does this promote unity and love if we can't agree on any dates? Most scholars agree that the Jews always celebrated the sabbath on a Saturday and that Sunday was the beginning of the weak. Why can't we follow the ways of the Jews as Christ, Paul and the rest of the believers back in the old days did?

No wonder Paul wrote the following:

Col 2:16, 17, "So don't let anyone judge you because of what you eat or drink. Don't let anyone judge you about holy days. I'm talking about special feasts and New Moons and Sabbath days. 17 They are only a shadow of the things that were going to come. But what is real is found in Christ." NIrV
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However in the context of Colossians 2 we can clearly see in verse 8 that false teachers had engaged the Colossians to change G-d's laws into their own deceitful doctrine and theology.

Colossians 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.

Therefore we can clearly see that Paul was warning the Colossians of the false teachers that would judge them in Colossians 2:16-17. The Biblical festivals and Sabbaths were certainly not human tradition. They were ordained by G-d.

Therefore don't let a false teacher judge YOU when you observe a sabbath day or festival which is the future of what to come...

In fact we can clearly see from where the apostle Paul came back to Jerusalem to observe Pentecost in Acts 20:16.

Acts 20:16
16 Paul had decided to sail past Ephesus to avoid spending time in the province of Asia, for he was in a hurry to reach Jerusalem, if possible, by the day of Pentecost.

[Gman]

Without question there is a great deal of confusion. God's commandments were for the covenant people Israel. They were given for a specific time, place and people. The Torah could not be any clearer on the matter.

That's a great verse, but what is your point? How does getting rid of moral filth equate to, "become a practicing Jew?"

Sometimes I really have to laugh when I read your posts.. Define the "Law" of the people of Israel or Jew.. Have you ever read what commandments were given to Israel? Here are a few if you think they given ONLY for a specific time, place and people...

Leviticus 19:18 “‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.

Leviticus 19:16 ‘Do not go about spreading slander among your people. “‘Do not do anything that endangers your neighbor’s life. I am the Lord.

Exodus 22:21 “Do not mistreat or oppress a foreigner, for you were foreigners in Egypt.

Leviticus 25:17 Do not take advantage of each other, but fear your God. I am the Lord your God.

Horrible stuff...

Conflation. Using the "bold" feature doesn't help your case. Every use of the word law, command, obey, etc. you immediately implant "Torah." That is eisegesis not exegesis.

Then prove to me that following G-d's commandments are bad...

Now you are conflating works to becoming a practicing OT Jew. Of course the plain reading of this text says no such thing. In fact it references Abraham who came before the Law was implemented. Or are you saying that we should all go and offer our children?

No.. Abraham was justified for obeying G-d even though he didn't finish the task..

Great prooftext. You seem unwilling to apply it to yourself however.

I think everyone can see that your interpretive method borders on cultic. Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons apply more consistent methods.

If you want to call Jews cults, then be my guest... However according to your "free grace" logic, we don't have be holy since Christ is holy? What does the Bible say about being holy?

Hebrews 10:26, “For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.”

Hebrews 12:14-15, “Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. Looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled.”

James 1:21 Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.

[Gman]

Not sure if you answered my question...
Must we observe the Sabbath to be saved?
Also, must the Sabbath be Saturday? by that I mean from sunset on Friday to sunset on Saturday?

Where did I ever say this was an issue of salvation?

[Gman]

Interesting conversation at lunch:

Can you imagine if the only scriptures we had were those of the NT?

Well if you think all the 613 commandments are condemning from the OT, wait till you see all the legalistic 1,050 commandments that came from Christ and the NT.

http://www.cai.org/bible-studies/1050-n ... t-commands

In fact... Christ even AUGMENTED them in many cases..

Matthew 5:27-28 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Matthew 5:21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Guys.. We are in a HEAP of trouble.

[Gman]

How is it a faith crasher?

We are just having fun here...

I can even do the "free grace" dance..

[PaulSacramento]

Not sure if you answered my question...
Must we observe the Sabbath to be saved?
Also, must the Sabbath be Saturday? by that I mean from sunset on Friday to sunset on Saturday?

Where did I ever say this was an issue of salvation?

So it isn't?

[PaulSacramento]

Interesting conversation at lunch:

Can you imagine if the only scriptures we had were those of the NT?

Well if you think all the 613 commandments are condemning from the OT, wait till you see all the legalistic 1,050 commandments that came from Christ and the NT.

http://www.cai.org/bible-studies/1050-n ... t-commands

In fact... Christ even AUGMENTED them in many cases..

Matthew 5:27-28 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Matthew 5:21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Guys.. We are in a HEAP of trouble.

Yes, The OT condemned ACTIONS and Christ made it clear that INTENTIONS were also condemnable since, of course, they lead to actions.
The OT made clear what sin was and Christ made it clear WHERE it came from/started.

[jlay]

Gman seems unwilling to acknowledge what has already been asked and answered. Everything, and I do mean everything he mentions has already been asked and answered.

If you want to call Jews cults, then be my guest... However according to your "free grace" logic, we don't have be holy since Christ is holy? What does the Bible say about being holy?

Hebrews 10:26, “For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.”

Hebrews 12:14-15, “Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. Looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled.”

James 1:21 Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.

G, I'm guessing it is only a matter of time before you are warned by a mod. (If you haven't been already.) Ad-hominems, personal attackes, petty name calling, strawmen..
I didn't say the Jews were cults. I am speaking to YOU. I am saying your eisegeis and method is no better than those used by cults. Others, including mods have also said as much.

What is your point of these quotes? Do you really think they help your case, because they don't. Yes, what does the Bible say about being holy. It says believers ARE holy. You do understand that the Greek word for saint is the exaxt same word for Holy? Who made us Holy? Christ, through His shed blood. Your statement is an admission you do not believe this revelation. You believe that holiness is obtained by YOUR actions and behaviors in following the Law. In light of the cross, we are declared Holy and Righteouss by God. Are you denying God his claim? Yes, you revert back to a system that God certainly implemented, but is not operating under today. It is spiritual larceny and you sir are guilty. I can know that I am Holy, because I am simply resting and trusting in the finished work of Christ. Not my own works, or efforts. I can only glory in Christ.

Here are a few if you think they given ONLY for a specific time, place and people...

Leviticus 19:18 “‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.

Leviticus 19:16 ‘Do not go about spreading slander among your people. “‘Do not do anything that endangers your neighbor’s life. I am the Lord.

Exodus 22:21 “Do not mistreat or oppress a foreigner, for you were foreigners in Egypt.

Leviticus 25:17 Do not take advantage of each other, but fear your God. I am the Lord your God.

Horrible stuff...

Already addressed. I showed how the Law of God addresses practical as well as prescriptive.
Why would it be odd that the Law would incorporate such things? Does that mean they are right because the Law says so. Or does the Law say so, because they are right. Does a person walking in the spirit need a written rule to know not to slander others? Apparently you think we don't really house this treasure in our lives.

Then prove to me that following G-d's commandments are bad...

G, if you haven't learned by now how you are asking loaded, presumptive questions, and building straw men, then it is hopeless. The Law is good. Take any verse in scripture about the Law and I will agree. But I will also use proper Exegesis to know whether the law applies to me or not. Audience, context, purpose, application. Saying we are not under the law is not saying it's OK to murder, or slander, or anything of the sort. You keep regurgitating the same failed arguments, resorting to name calling and multiple examples of fallacious reasoning. You are puffed up with pride and therefore unable to be reasoned with.

No.. Abraham was justified for obeying G-d even though he didn't finish the task..

Now you are claiming that justification is not by faith.
Romans 4
"What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”
9 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11 And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12 And he is then also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also follow in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised. 13 It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14 For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression. 16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17 As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.”He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that were not. 18 Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”[d] 19 Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah’s womb was also dead. 20 Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21 being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22 This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” 23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification."

Now, you want to take an actual chapter and entire book dedicated to systematically explaining (forsensic) justification, and throw it out because a verse in James (written to Jews, btw) seems to support your presuppositions??

Matthew 5:27-28 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Matthew 5:21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Guys.. We are in a HEAP of trouble.

[/quote]
And how is this working out for you G? How are you doing? Are you keeping the Law perfectly in word thought and deed?

[B. W.]

What happens when a person makes the Law an Idol?

Exodus 20:3, 4 "You shall have no other gods before Me. 4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth…" NKJV

How can you tell when someone does this?

They falsely accuse others of not keeping the law written in their hearts:

Jeremiah 31:33, "But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people." NKJV

Are you not doing so, Gman? Falsely accusing people here, responding to you of not keeping the law in one's heart through the regenerating and renewing inner work of the Holy Spirit ?

Titus 3:5, 6, ….not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life." NKJV

Has your faith turned away to serving idol of Law, Gman, in the same manner as the Pharisees and Scribes of long ago?
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