Evidence for God from Science

Jac3510 wrote:More post padding ftw!!!

Don't really know what you mean by that.

It means they just got beat.

jpbg33 wrote:So B. W. are you saying that Paul was not saved by grace? I said that like Paul I could be a cast away.

Paul wrote: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God..." Eph 2:8 NASB

Also the Apostle Paul wrote this principle: "...for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable..." Rom 11:29 NKJV

So what I am hearing you say jpbg33 is that God cannot keep his word and is so inept that He cannot save those whom he has drawn to himself and is so enslaved to human free will that he cannot act to keep his words in John 10:28, John 17:2 and also in Romans 8:29..

A Love that let's someone just go because someone has a temper tantrum, a crisis of faith, or a lapse into some sort sughted sin is not agape love at all. It is based upon whims of the receiver and not the giver.

Grace teaches us as Titus 2:11 and Titus 2:12 NIV, "teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age..."

AND...

...If one strays, they are chastened by the Lord, not cast away as it is written, "FOR WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE CHASTENS, AND SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES." Heb 12:6 NKJV

1 John 1:8,9,10 states what truth to you?

You see, true believers in Jesus the Messiah, He Himself intercedes over them as it is written, Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. Heb 7:25 NKJV

Isaiah 55:11 and Isaiah 46:10 says what at God keeping his word that he speaks and if he intercedes for us then how can one just walk away who is in his own flock?

If one can lose his or her salvation then these verses are null and void and salvation is based upon the fickleness of human nature being superior to God's grace that same grace that secures us in and too himself.

Jpbg33, here is a serious question: Do you really-really-really, know who Jesus truly absolutely is?

One more thing jpbg33, there are only two kinds of people in the bible, the children of darkness/wrath/devil, and those who are His own adopted sons and daughters. His own, hear his voice, follow him and are changed daily free of charge despite what they do or not do because of who saved us. Do you really-really-really, know who Jesus truly absolutely is?

We can agree that folks are lazy, can abuse Grace, all due to bad teachings on grace because such erroneous teachings on grace can make those who are not His own his think they are. They never show any change in life course but rather remain proud dictating and redefining God how he must act. The fruit of their doings and life prove they really-really-really, do not know who Jesus truly absolutely is, thus such folks were never saved by God at all. These types of folks you claim as losing salvation were never saved to begin with and thus base your doctrine on.

Then there is another group that erroneously conclude that they must add their personal two cents worth to God's Grace to perform for God in an endless roller coaster ride because they were never confronted with the reality if they really-really-really, know who Jesus truly absolutely is. Such folks are saved but seek to add the identity of human nature alone as the means to maintain ones salvation and not rely on God's Grace alone.

No more padding the post...

Jpbg33, do you really-really-really, know who Jesus truly absolutely is?
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Well for every verse you can come up with about what you clam is osas I can come up with a verse that says if you are not living right then you are not saved. So if both are in there then there is only two logical conclusions.

A. if you are saved then you will not live in sin and if you find you are then you must not have ever been saved to began with.

or

B. if you are saved then you start living in sin later then you are no longer saved.

I can go with ether of them but I believer (B) is more right. there is no alternative to (A OR B). IF you say any thing else then you are leaving part of the bible out.

A ) a believer will not be 'living' in sin. There will not be sinless living until we get to heaven. And there Is a difference between 'Living' in sin and being a saved sinner. God has given us a remedy For our sinfulness -- and when we live in a world that chooses to live in an ungodly way -- it's Very easy to rationalize our own behavior. Does That mean we 'loose' our salvation, NO. It means we need to 'Turn your eyes upon Jesus' all the More. And 'What a Friend we have in Jesus' -- Society has a different definition of Friendship than God gives us.

B) We Do need to examine our lives every so often -- possibly at a Communion Service at church / the Lord's Supper. The Holy Spirit lets us know what needs to be done in our own lives. Or maybe we've allowed ourselves to get away from frequent Bible reading. Protecting our relationship. Like married couples need to protect their marriage from outside influences.

The Bible / God's Word to us - is sharing history of people -- from Way back in history to 'now'. People who have really messed up and God Still uses them, but After they have realized the error of their way / repented / God continues to use them for His glory.

God's salvation gives the person Inner Peace because the Holy Spirit has come to indwell them.

God's Word tells us what activities are questionable / down-right wrong. Are WE guilty of any of that? If So -- reconsider Our personal life -- no need to spend time worrying and wondering "am I really saved" -- simply take time -- NOW -- to make sure you Are. Have it settled once and for all. Live with Inner Peace.

crochet1949 Christians are not sinners. you error in scripture.

Joh_9:31  Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.
Rom_5:8  But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Mat_9:13  But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Christians are sinners who've been saved by grace. Ephesians 2 -- For by Grace you have been saved by faith.....

Our original 'state' has been as sinners. And believers -- born again ones -- are sinners who've been called to repentance.

@jpbg and crochet, a video someone shared a while ago.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnIH_UTMrys

Next time I see Yankee I am telling him about you all sharing that video. He'll love it.

jpbg33 wrote:crochet1949 Christians are not sinners. you error in scripture.

Joh_9:31  Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.
Rom_5:8  But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Mat_9:13  But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

1st John 1:8-10

abelcainsbrother I have a question far you and all of you need to pay attention. the verses you use say all are sinners.

So if that verses really means that we will always be sinners then why dose the next verse lie and say He will forgive us of and cleans us from all unrighteousness?

If I am forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness then there is none left in me and at that point the other verse lies by saying that we are all sinners. It just doesn't work how y'all are using it we are not sinners when we get saved.

One other problem with that way of thinking is if what you are saying is true then why does God say he hears Christians when they pray but He doesn't hear sinners. How does that work if we are all sinners. The bible dose not say God hears Christian sinners it says He dose not hear sinners.

crochet1949 You are wrong. You have been fed a lie. We are not sinners when we get saved. The bible is true and when we are forgiven we are forgiven of all our sins not part or most but all and if we are forgiven of all then we can not be sinners at that point at all.

Y'all are taking that verse way out of context John was saying that all have sinned and needs Gods forgiveness.

If you believe 1 John 1:9 is true then you believe once you are saved you are no longer a sinner.

I guess y'all do not believe He is faithful.

I'm not watching the video for two reasons I have limited internet and the last one I watched was nonsense. I would go a head and watch it if I had unlimited internet though but I do not so if you wont me to know what it says then write it down and I will show you were he is wrong.

You can not be right preaching something the bible says is wrong.

You seem to think that you have some sort of 'edge' on what is the Real truth. You are Determined that the guy in the video is wrong -- even Before you watch it. You're self-righteous attitude is getting a Bit tiring.

I was just joking about that. I don't even know what he said but I figure he is not on my side or I would have been using it. But your right I do not know how good of an argument he has. I am watch it later when I have more internet to watch it with.

jpbg33 wrote:abelcainsbrother I have a question far you and all of you need to pay attention. the verses you use say all are sinners.

So if that verses really means that we will always be sinners then why dose the next verse lie and say He will forgive us of and cleans us from all unrighteousness?

If I am forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness then there is none left in me and at that point the other verse lies by saying that we are all sinners. It just doesn't work how y'all are using it we are not sinners when we get saved.

One other problem with that way of thinking is if what you are saying is true then why does God say he hears Christians when they pray but He doesn't hear sinners. How does that work if we are all sinners. The bible dose not say God hears Christian sinners it says He dose not hear sinners.

crochet1949 You are wrong. You have been fed a lie. We are not sinners when we get saved. The bible is true and when we are forgiven we are forgiven of all our sins not part or most but all and if we are forgiven of all then we can not be sinners at that point at all.

Y'all are taking that verse way out of context John was saying that all have sinned and needs Gods forgiveness.

If you believe 1 John 1:9 is true then you believe once you are saved you are no longer a sinner.

I guess y'all do not believe He is faithful.

I'm not watching the video for two reasons I have limited internet and the last one I watched was nonsense. I would go a head and watch it if I had unlimited internet though but I do not so if you wont me to know what it says then write it down and I will show you were he is wrong.

You can not be right preaching something the bible says is wrong.

Only Jesus lived a perfect sinnless life and you cannot do it,yet somehow think you can.Do you overlook your sin and really think you don't sin? No man that has ever been used by God throughout both the old and new testament were perfect sinnless people,they all sinned and we learn from reading about their sin,but Jesus did not sin like them. I really don't understand how you can really think that you can do what no other man expect Jesus did,live a holy,righteous,sinnless life because this is exactly what you must believe if you believe you must do works to remain saved.So you can do what no other man could do? Really? You really think that? Come on and admit you cannot do it. You are not as righteous as Jesus because you do good in the areas important to you while not in the other areas. What makes you think you can do good following some of the law while breaking other parts? You think it don't matter?

People lived by the law before Jesus and yet were sinners and could not do it,only Jesus did. So to believe the bible and to reject OSAS means you must be able to live out the law just like Jesus did without any error and you cannot live by just some of it and think it doesn't count. This is why OSAS is true and Jesus fulfilled the law for us and we are justified by him only once we are saved.

There is no other options biblically. Biblically you are either living by the law or by grace and grace alone. So if you say you reject OSAS then it is law you must be able to live out flawlessly just like Jesus did. But if you live by saved by grace you are fully justified by Jesus and what he did and not anything you do or can do. The gospel means good news but you turn it into bad news rejecting OSAS.

I have never said I work to be saved. That would be stupid. I said I work because I am saved.

like Jesus said. I have good fruit because I am of a good tree and a good tree can not have bad fruit.


Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 
Gal 5:20  Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 
Gal 5:21  Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God

the bible says people doing these things are not going to heaven and osas says they are so I believe the bible not osas.


Gal 5:16  This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 
Gal 5:17  For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 
Gal 5:18  But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 
Gal 5:19  Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 
Gal 5:20  Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 
Gal 5:21  Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 
Gal 5:22  But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 
Gal 5:23  Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 
Gal 5:24  And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 
Gal 5:25  If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 
Gal 5:26  Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.