Evidence for God from Science

PaulSacramento wrote:

The text tells us the following about the Nephilim.
- They appear to be the offspring of the "sons of God" and the "daughters of men"
- They were mighty men and men of renown
- They appear to have had a life span of 120 years.

You are reading into the text I am afraid.
God doesn't say that the nephilim have a life span of 120 years, it is written that God say 'MAN, his flesh, his days will be 120 years".

What does that mean?
It can mean that Man was made to live longer but God decide to limit his life span ( but people live longer than 120 years).
Or could mean that man had 120 years left before God sent the flood.
BUT to narrow it down to only the nephilim is not what the text says.

The text seems to lean towards the 120 years being the time until the flood, not the lifespan of humans. But if it does refer to the lifespan of humans, then certainly the Nephilim would be included too. And if the text was referring to the lifespan, including nephilim, I'm not sure how the lifespan alone, would indicate that the nephilim weren't related to the pre-flood Sumerian kings. If the 120 years was meant to indicate the human lifespan, then it seems it would be be for all humans, including Nephilim, because of God's judgement.

RickD wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

The text tells us the following about the Nephilim.
- They appear to be the offspring of the "sons of God" and the "daughters of men"
- They were mighty men and men of renown
- They appear to have had a life span of 120 years.

You are reading into the text I am afraid.
God doesn't say that the nephilim have a life span of 120 years, it is written that God say 'MAN, his flesh, his days will be 120 years".

What does that mean?
It can mean that Man was made to live longer but God decide to limit his life span ( but people live longer than 120 years).
Or could mean that man had 120 years left before God sent the flood.
BUT to narrow it down to only the nephilim is not what the text says.

The text seems to lean towards the 120 years being the time until the flood, not the lifespan of humans. But if it does refer to the lifespan of humans, then certainly the Nephilim would be included too. And if the text was referring to the lifespan, including nephilim, I'm not sure how the lifespan alone, would indicate that the nephilim weren't related to the pre-flood Sumerian kings. If the 120 years was meant to indicate the human lifespan, then it seems it would be be for all humans, including Nephilim, because of God's judgement.

Yes, but lifespan TILL the flood, not lifespan from now on.
People have lived to over 120 years old.

DBowling wrote:Let me follow BW's example and focus a bit on the Sumerian King Lists. (Much of this from Chapter 16 of "Historical Genesis From Adam to Abraham" by Richard Fischer)

In his book, Fischer does a comparison of multiple lists of the pre-Flood Sumerian kings and reconciles them into a single list of ten pre-Flood kings.
1. Alulim
2. Alalgar
3. Enmenluanna
4. Enmengalanna
5. Dumuzi
6. Ensipazianna
7. Enmenduranna
8. Ubartutu
9. Su-Kur-Lam
10. Ziusudra

....

What folks do not know is Chaldean Numerology which keeps adding numbers together to reduce them to a single number. That is a form of code which works lie this - 877000 is actually 8+7+7=22 and 2+2=4 the identifier is the number four which has a specific meaning and identifier of these Kings

Lets' look and maybe you might notice something peculiar...as I add in human years together Chaldean style

Alulim 8 sars (28,800 years) 2+8+8=18 and 1+8=9

Alalngar 10 sars (36,000 years) 3+6=9

En-men-lu-ana 12 sars (43,200 years) 4+3+2=9

En-men-gal-ana 8 sars (28,800 years) 2+8+8=18 and 1+8=9

Dumuzid 10 sars (36,000 years) 3+6=9

En-sipad-zid-ana 8 sars (28,800 years) 2+8+8=18 and 1+8=9

These two have differing numbers:

En-men-dur-ana 5 sars and 5 ners (21,000 years) 2+1=3

Ubara-Tutu 5 sars and 1 ner (18,600 years) 5 sars+1ner=6 or years 1+8+6=15 and1+5=6

Aluli, Alalgar, Enmenluanna, Enmengalann, Dumuzi, Ensipazianna all share the number 9...

Enmenduranna and Ubartutu do not share the number nine.

**Su-Kur-Lam, Ziusudra appear to be another name for Enmenduranna and Ubartutu or they could be their offspring. I could not find their reign in years yet... and since their reduced numbers associated with them are 4 and 6 respectively - shows a difference**

They used a box system with their letters from 1-8 arranged inside. However, when 9 appears it is not included in this box system because The Chaldeans considered the number 9 to be sacred ... something hidden ... divine... stands for complete cycle of growth of divine light illumination - secret knowledge...bears fruit growing in secert

Since six of these kings share the number nine tells me these were, according the the bible - 6 leaders of the fallen angels - sons of God in Gen 6:1-14.

Note that there are seven primordial beings in Sumerian religion who came to enlighten mankind and they are:

Abzu and Tiamat
Lahmu and Lahamu
Anshar and Kishar
Mummu

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abzu

You have six paired together. Do not think male or female but rather in military terms General and his second n command.

Remember - the names always change to protect the guilty...

More later...
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PaulSacramento wrote:

RickD wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

The text tells us the following about the Nephilim.
- They appear to be the offspring of the "sons of God" and the "daughters of men"
- They were mighty men and men of renown
- They appear to have had a life span of 120 years.

You are reading into the text I am afraid.
God doesn't say that the nephilim have a life span of 120 years, it is written that God say 'MAN, his flesh, his days will be 120 years".

What does that mean?
It can mean that Man was made to live longer but God decide to limit his life span ( but people live longer than 120 years).
Or could mean that man had 120 years left before God sent the flood.
BUT to narrow it down to only the nephilim is not what the text says.

The text seems to lean towards the 120 years being the time until the flood, not the lifespan of humans. But if it does refer to the lifespan of humans, then certainly the Nephilim would be included too. And if the text was referring to the lifespan, including nephilim, I'm not sure how the lifespan alone, would indicate that the nephilim weren't related to the pre-flood Sumerian kings. If the 120 years was meant to indicate the human lifespan, then it seems it would be be for all humans, including Nephilim, because of God's judgement.

Yes, but lifespan TILL the flood, not lifespan from now on.
People have lived to over 120 years old.

I tend to thing "man" in Genesis 6:3, refers to mankind. Which leads me to believe that the text means that mankind only has 120 years until the flood.

B.W. wrote:
Pretty silly to to say to a human that they will die like normal humans unless there was an option for them NOT to die.

Actually, it's not silly at all, if one understands the context. God put these judges in a position to be His(God's) representatives on earth, or "gods", individuals with power by God's authority.

And because they hadn't judged as God would, justly, they would die as mere men without honor as God's sons.

There's really no reason to read some weird angel belief into the text. The judges were human.

thatkidakayoungguy wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_King_List
The sumerian list has people like 42000 years old and stuff which really pushes it even for people who accept that Methusaleh was 969 yrs old.
I added all the dates up to the third one up from Aga and the reign turned out to be almost 260,000 years. Also interesting is that the flood took place i think about 7000 or so years before Aga (thought to be Gilgamesh).
These kings also had kingship given down from heaven, a common idea back in the day. Were these "gods" fallen angels who mated and the kings were actually nephilim?

To sum up an answer to your original post...

1) We need to be careful when using extrabiblical sources to interpret scripture.
2) Both Nephilim and Sumerian kings were fully human.

It's really as simple as that. No need to read wacky, mystical theories into scripture, when there is no warrant to do so.

PaulSacramento wrote:

The text tells us the following about the Nephilim.
- They appear to be the offspring of the "sons of God" and the "daughters of men"
- They were mighty men and men of renown
- They appear to have had a life span of 120 years.

You are reading into the text I am afraid.
God doesn't say that the nephilim have a life span of 120 years, it is written that God say 'MAN, his flesh, his days will be 120 years".

I disagree for a couple of reasons...

1. I think many of the misunderstandings involving Genesis 6 are a function of overlooking the context of the narrative. So lets look at the context of the narrative surrounding Genesis 6:3, and see who the players involved in this story are? There are three specific groups of people mentioned in the Genesis 6:1-4 narrative:
- the sons of God
- the daughters of men
- the offspring of the sons of God and the daughters of men
God's establishment of a life span of 120 years is a response to the wickedness described in Genesis 6:1-4, and therefore would impact the offspring of the wickedness described. Since Nephilim is one of the terms used to describe the offspring of the wickedness in Genesis 6:1-4, I do not think it is going beyond the text to infer that the establishment of a life span of 120 years applied to the Nephilim, since they are part of the immediate context of Genesis 6:3.

2. Now does this life span limitation extend beyond the specific groups of people mentioned in Genesis 6:1-4? I think the Scriptural text answers that question very clearly. If we look at the Adamic family line in Genesis 5. We see that the descendants of Adam mentioned in Genesis 5 maintained ages of 700 - 900 all the way to the Flood and Noah maintained his longevity even after the Flood. After the Flood Noah's sons lived to ages well beyond 120 years.

So the Scriptural text supports the proposition that the age limit of 120 years was not imposed on all mankind, rather it was imposed upon the people who were involved in the wickedness explicitly described in Genesis 6:1-4.

I'm not going to assert that I have perfect knowledge here, but I think my position is much closer to the Scriptural text than many of the speculations and assertions regarding Genesis 6:1-4 that I have read here and elsewhere.

RickD wrote:

thatkidakayoungguy wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_King_List
The sumerian list has people like 42000 years old and stuff which really pushes it even for people who accept that Methusaleh was 969 yrs old.
I added all the dates up to the third one up from Aga and the reign turned out to be almost 260,000 years. Also interesting is that the flood took place i think about 7000 or so years before Aga (thought to be Gilgamesh).
These kings also had kingship given down from heaven, a common idea back in the day. Were these "gods" fallen angels who mated and the kings were actually nephilim?

To sum up an answer to your original post...

1) We need to be careful when using extrabiblical sources to interpret scripture.
2) Both Nephilim and Sumerian kings were fully human.

It's really as simple as that. No need to read wacky, mystical theories into scripture, when there is no warrant to do so.

Couldn't agree more in light that the ruler and sethite view was first suggested by Julius Africanus in the third century AD and popularized later advocated by St. Augustine of Hippo writing in the 5th century AD.

The idea that the pre-Flood were human rulers/magistrates became the standard rabbinical explanation in the second century AD after Rabbi Simeon ben Yochai pronounced a curse upon any Jews who believed the traditional view that the angels were responsible for the nephilim. Later in the Middle Ages, Rabbi Shlomo Yitzchaki (Rashi) and Rabbi Moshe ben Nachman (Nachmanides) advocated this interpretation and it became the standard explanation of rabbinical Judaism but it is not widely accepted by many modern Jewish scholars today.

Can't use extra biblical expostulations either, yep, can't use these to support these views - extra biblical sources ya know... to interpret scripture

Yep, Augustine was sure above mystical theories to interpret scripture in City of God and then a curse on any who doesn't conform to it - Curse ... cough... hmmm..

What does the bible really say...

Gen 6:2 "...that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose." NASB

Note it does not say that they saw the daughters of Cain... nope .. not at all. Grammar states daughters of Adam. Was Seth part of Adams line? Hmmmm...

Gen 6:2 "...that the sons of God saw that the daughters of (all) men were beautiful; and they took (captured seized) women (The word should be translated women not wives) for themselves, whomever they chose (selected, required)." NASB

I added the actual Hebrew word meanings into text. Next.... the phrase sons of god...

Gen 6:2 "...that the sons of God (read Job 1:6; 2:1 and Job 38:7 - The angels were created before man and shouted for joy at creation - true or not? In Job they presented themselves before God along with the adversary angel, period. Men cannot stand in the full presence of God, so, the sons of God are not human but angelic beings and so is the adversary in Job.

Next Notice Luke 20:36....Jesus uses the same term as it implies to human beings and note IT IS ONLY AFTER the work of the cross and Resurrection can human beings become sons of God... never before...Period...

That's bible... not Augustine and Rabbinical Judaism ... but the bible...

1) We need to be careful when using extrabiblical sources to interpret scripture.
2) The Nephilim were genticically mixed and Sumerian kings were fully angelic beings.
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Sumerian mythical kings ...

Let me try to show folks something. Math. Chaldean used math and used it in their pagan religion and occultic rituals and conjurings. I suggest folks to stay away from that. There is an actual number system based on the old Hebrew letters with actual meanings to the numbers. The meanings come from the bible and from the themes in the bible. It is another language altogether. One must use the Hebrew/Christian system to avoid pitfalls and error.By doing so, you uncover a story line, even in the Sumerian King List which I will point out later you find a remarkable story line.

Back to topic...

The religion of the ancient pagan Sumerians liked to reduce numbers and in doing so, identify their pantheon deities. The number 9 was used for that purpose - a code of theirs. This is not known by very many Christians. Few PhD Types known this and others, with a Lowly BA Degree like myself who has taken years to study all this are about the only ones to see its significance.

Look again at the Sumerian King List along with the math reduction method they would have used.
http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section2/tr211.htm

After the kingship descended from heaven, the kingship was in Eridug (A City with a patron diety called - Enki)

Alulim 8 sars (28,800 years) 2+8+8=18 and 1+8=9

Alalngar 10 sars (36,000 years) 3+6=9

These 2 kings; they ruled for 64800 years. 6+4+8=18 and 1+8=9
Then -City- Eridug fell and the kingship was taken to -city- Bad-tibira. Note patron deity of that city was Lulal who was related to Isthar of the moon god triad. Isthar is known in the bible as the whore of Babylon in the Book of Revelation

En-men-lu-ana 12 sars (43,200 years) 4+3+2=9

En-men-gal-ana 8 sars (28,800 years) 2+8+8=18 and 1+8=9

Dumuzid 10 sars (36,000 years) 3+6=9

3 kings; they ruled for 108000 years. --- 1+8=9 ----
Then Bad-tibira fell and the kingship was taken to -city -Larag

In the city of Larag, the parton diety was Utu/Nergal/Ninurta. Just names to most of you but the three names are just one being. I will use the name Nergal. Nergal was used as a scapegoat and sentenced to the waste places - hell. He is known in Hebrew as the scapegoat mentioned in Lev 16:8,10 the word scapegoat is the name Azazel ... whom is mentioned in the book of Enoch who was made the scapegoat so the leader of the angelic rebellion could escape and cast into the deep earth waste places of sharp rocks.

En-sipad-zid-ana ruled there (from Larag) 8 sars (28,800 years) 2+8+8=18 and 1+8=9

1 king; he ruled for 28800 years. Then Larag fell and the kingship was taken to Zimbir.
Now the The patron of Zimbir was Utu and Marduk and Anunit again three nasty pagan deities

The next two kings have different numbers other than the number nine:

In Zimbir, En-men-dur-ana ruled 5 sars and 5 ners (21,000 years) 2+1=3

1 king; he ruled for 21000 years. Then Zimbir fell and the kingship was taken to Curuppag.
The patron of Curuppag city was called Shuruppag and known as Ninlil or Lilith who was a consort with Enki.

In Curuppag Ubara-Tutu ruled 5 sars and 1 ner (18,600 years) 1+8+6=15 1+5=6 -- 1 king; he ruled for 18600 years.

In 5 cities 8 kings; they ruled for 241200 years. Then the flood swept over.
Used the Reduction matrix here 2+4+1+2=9

Back to the math. Notice that six of the kings using the reduction method all equal 9. Then notice that the total years each group of Kings reigned in each city mentioned - two of these sum up to 9 also. So you have eight number nines used. (six nines for the kings, three nines use for the total reigns of these kings in their cities and grand total.

9x8=72 and 7+2 equals what NINE. You have eight nines - that is more than coincidence - it is a code notoriously used in their pagan religious system. It is red flag... for pagan deities - fallen angels - seeking to make a new beginning on earth.

More boring stuff...

When I work the numbers in the biblical Hebrew meanings for numbers what is uncovered is startling as well. However, I will not show you how that is done as folks do get weird with this trying to foretell the future or nutcase stuff.

I brief I found that there these 8 kings conspired in a plot to restructure life on earth by giving gifts to humanity to bring humanity into the bondage of their governing order to control them by these gifts. They took an oath - pledge - bound each to an oath to carry out this deed to destroy man as a means to overthrow God.

Basically what I found in the Hebrew-biblical numeric number meanings used in the Kings List correlates to 1 Enoch and Genesis 6:1-4 to a tee so read it there no need to add anything more ...

...No I did not find the same words used in the Enoch's writings but rather the same story line using far less words that are more liken to a talking point format.

BOOK OF ENOCH
From-The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament
H.R. Charles Oxford: The Clarendon Press
Section I.
https://www.ccel.org/c/charles/otpseude ... NOCH_1.HTM

[Chapter 6]
1 And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto 2 them beautiful and comely daughters. And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men 3 and beget us children.'

And Semjaza, who was their leader, said unto them: 'I fear ye will not 4 indeed agree to do this deed, and I alone shall have to pay the penalty of a great sin.' And they all answered him and said: 'Let us all swear an oath, and all bind ourselves by mutual imprecations 5 not to abandon this plan but to do this thing.' Then sware they all together and bound themselves 6 by mutual imprecations upon it.

And they were in all two hundred; who descended in the days of Jared on the summit of Mount Hermon, and they called it Mount Hermon, because they had sworn 7 and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. And these are the names of their leaders: Samlazaz, their leader, Araklba, Rameel, Kokablel, Tamlel, Ramlel, Danel, Ezeqeel, Baraqijal, 8 Asael, Armaros, Batarel, Ananel, Zaqiel, Samsapeel, Satarel, Turel, Jomjael, Sariel. These are their chiefs of tens.

[Chapter 7]
1 And all the others together with them took unto themselves wives, and each chose for himself one, and they began to go in unto them and to defile themselves with them, and they taught them charms 2 and enchantments, and the cutting of roots, and made them acquainted with plants. And they 3 became pregnant, and they bare great giants, whose height was three thousand ells: Who consumed 4 all the acquisitions of men. And when men could no longer sustain them, the giants turned against 5 them and devoured mankind. And they began to sin against birds, and beasts, and reptiles, and 6 fish, and to devour one another's flesh, and drink the blood. Then the earth laid accusation against the lawless ones.

[Chapter 8]
1 And Azazel taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals of the earth and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all 2 colouring tinctures. And there arose much godlessness, and they committed fornication, and they 3 were led astray, and became corrupt in all their ways.

Semjaza taught enchantments, and root-cuttings, 'Armaros the resolving of enchantments, Baraqijal (taught) astrology, Kokabel the constellations, Ezeqeel the knowledge of the clouds, Araqiel the signs of the earth, Shamsiel the signs of the sun, and Sariel the course of the moon. And as men perished, they cried, and their cry went up to heaven . . .

[Chapter 10]
And again the Lord said to Raphael: 'Bind Azazel hand and foot, and cast him into the darkness: and make an opening 5 in the desert, which is in Dudael, and cast him therein. And place upon him rough and jagged rocks, and cover him with darkness, and let him abide there for ever, and cover his face that he may 6, 7 not see light.

And on the day of the great judgement he shall be cast into the fire. And heal the earth which the angels have corrupted, and proclaim the healing of the earth, that they may heal the plague, and that all the children of men may not perish through all the secret things that the 8 Watchers have disclosed and have taught their sons.

And the whole earth has been corrupted 9 through the works that were taught by Azazel: to him ascribe all sin.'

RickD wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

RickD wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

The text tells us the following about the Nephilim.
- They appear to be the offspring of the "sons of God" and the "daughters of men"
- They were mighty men and men of renown
- They appear to have had a life span of 120 years.

You are reading into the text I am afraid.
God doesn't say that the nephilim have a life span of 120 years, it is written that God say 'MAN, his flesh, his days will be 120 years".

What does that mean?
It can mean that Man was made to live longer but God decide to limit his life span ( but people live longer than 120 years).
Or could mean that man had 120 years left before God sent the flood.
BUT to narrow it down to only the nephilim is not what the text says.

The text seems to lean towards the 120 years being the time until the flood, not the lifespan of humans. But if it does refer to the lifespan of humans, then certainly the Nephilim would be included too. And if the text was referring to the lifespan, including nephilim, I'm not sure how the lifespan alone, would indicate that the nephilim weren't related to the pre-flood Sumerian kings. If the 120 years was meant to indicate the human lifespan, then it seems it would be be for all humans, including Nephilim, because of God's judgement.

Yes, but lifespan TILL the flood, not lifespan from now on.
People have lived to over 120 years old.

I tend to thing "man" in Genesis 6:3, refers to mankind. Which leads me to believe that the text means that mankind only has 120 years until the flood.

I agree.

I was posting late last night and phone lines went out and lost internet service. I wanted to post some sources such as:

The Demonology of the Israelite - Jewish and Early Christian Literature in context of their Environment (Tubingen: Mohr Siebeck, 2003- pgs 318-338)

Secrecy and the Gods: Secret Knowledge in Ancient Mesopotamia and Biblical Israel, (Alan Lenzi the Neo- Assyrian Text Corpus Project, State archives of Assyrian studies. Helsinki 2008)

On the Origin of the Watchers: A Comparative Study of the Antediluvian Wisdom in Mesopotamian and Jewish Literature 19.4 (2010) 277-320...by Amar Annus

Dead Sea Scrolls fragments of Enoch, Jubilees, book of the Giants, etc that predate existing manuscripts as easliy found on the internet.

Lastly:

The Books of Enoch, Jasher, and Jubilees are all quoted in the bible. They do not malign the bible. They support the bible. They honor YHWH as well. They were refereed too in the bible and quoted.

The sections concerning Genesis chapter 6 were written to set the record straight before we had cannon of scripture and were very well known to second temple Jews and their view was in a supernatural God at war with fallen angels and fallen angels who supernaturally mixed a new race of humans and angels - that was the historical record they had. In other words, God was setting the record straight midst a pagan world view intent on killing God's people.

These book and more were all well read back then in the days of Jesus - Jesus appears to have quoted from the book of Jubilees as well too.

Jude and Peter quoted from Enoch, thus, they knew their own history better than Augustine in his mystical book - City of God - did.

To toss all this out just to prove two theories that gained acceptance in the Middle Ages - hundreds of years after Jesus left this earth is poor dastardly scholarship indeed - a travesty pure and simple.
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P. S.

Recall that there are eight times that the number 9 is found in the Kings list - 9x8=72 and 7+2=9

The number 72 - it is a specific number considered to be one of the master numbers in Chaldean number system.

It's symbolic meaning in Sumerian numbers was that it represented the earth or more likely control of the earth - who controls the earth.

Again, it is significant number. Even the Hebrew number meaning refers to the earth and events on it.

I will post a quote from a questionable website because they did a fair job noting the significance of the number 72 quoted below from that site:

Properties of the number 72
http://www.ridingthebeast.com/numbers/nu72.php

Symbolism

Represent the number of the earth.

According to R. Allendy, it is "the differentiation, 2, in cosmic series, 70, producing the extreme multiplicity of the aspects, moreover interdependent between them (7 + 2 = 9)". It would express also the solidarity in the multiplicity (8 x 9) showing the harmony and the reciprocity in universal relations of things.

Sixty-twelve is considered as harmful in the apocryphal books of the Old Testament that speak about the 72 dead (Will of Abraham) and of the 72 sicknesses (Life of Adam and Eve).

Bible

The 72 disciples sent by Jesus. (Lk 10,1)

The 70 ancients accompanying Moses that received an outpouring of the spirit, plus the 2 absent ones which had remained in the camp, Eldad and Medad. (Nb 11,25-26)

The 72 races resulting from Noah. They are enumerated in chapter 10 of the Genesis. There are fifteen descendants by Japhet, thirty by Cham, twenty-seven by Sem. The list is arbitrary since the descendants of Peleg are not taken into account, and that the fathers are counted at the same time that their sons.

The 72 languages confused to the Tower of Babel.

If this isn't boring enough, note when you reduce 72 which is 7+2=9, you will have Nine - 9s total in the Kings list and 9x9=81

81 in the Chaldean system means - to teach fine arts, inciting with greater intellect and knowledge, to benefit someone or people with self improvement. It is a number suggesting seduction by use of selfhelp/improvement, offers a deeper knowledge, and offers philosophy and if these fail to win - to wage warfare with better weapons and wise skill. These traits are the same character traits of Nergal and Ishtar...and Satan as well.

Adam and Eve fell prey to this seduction" Be as god - self improvement to become their own gods along with an offer of Knowledge... to know ... and the pride involved in knowing and that kind of self help to toss away YHWH in exchange for you calling your own shots - all justified.

In the Hebrew number system 81 means Angelic Beings who battle, or act in role of servants and messengers either in a good sense (God's Angels) or bad sense (Fallen angels) , in the bad sense it refers fallen angels who counterattack God's grace, mercy, etc...war against God and his people on earth.

So according to the code in the Kings list - there is a battle for control of the earth to overthrow God himself (as per Eph 6:10,11,12-18 implies that this war still is on going) by fallen angels who seduce with crafty words of wisdom, self improvement, philosophy and if this fails to bring ruin - wage actual open warfare where buckets of blood flow.

In the Hebrew system the numbers point out God's angels battling these fallen angels on earth.

This is not coincidence. Too much bible supports this after all Daniels prayer be answered was hindered by whom? Who do we wrestle? The devil walks about like what? We are to resist whom?

Why is God's will for us - sanctification? We are called to expose the works of darkness... you think we can sit on our arses and do nothing? Really? Waste time defending the Leader or Sethite view while whole would is under sway of whom?

Selah

B. W. wrote: The Books of Enoch, Jasher, and Jubilees are all quoted in the bible. They do not malign the bible. They support the bible. They honor YHWH as well. They were refereed too in the bible and quoted.

In your opinion are the intertestamental pseudepigrapha that you mention above equivalent to the OT and NT canon in accuracy and authority?
I think it's safe to assume that you do not.

If not, then what is the basis for your assumption that these intertestamental traditions accurately reflect historical events that occurred over 2,000 years before these traditions were created?

Are you confident that the three pseudepigraphal documents you mention above have no contradictions with canonical Scripture?

PaulSacramento wrote:

RickD wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

RickD wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:
You are reading into the text I am afraid.
God doesn't say that the nephilim have a life span of 120 years, it is written that God say 'MAN, his flesh, his days will be 120 years".

What does that mean?
It can mean that Man was made to live longer but God decide to limit his life span ( but people live longer than 120 years).
Or could mean that man had 120 years left before God sent the flood.
BUT to narrow it down to only the nephilim is not what the text says.

The text seems to lean towards the 120 years being the time until the flood, not the lifespan of humans. But if it does refer to the lifespan of humans, then certainly the Nephilim would be included too. And if the text was referring to the lifespan, including nephilim, I'm not sure how the lifespan alone, would indicate that the nephilim weren't related to the pre-flood Sumerian kings. If the 120 years was meant to indicate the human lifespan, then it seems it would be be for all humans, including Nephilim, because of God's judgement.

Yes, but lifespan TILL the flood, not lifespan from now on.
People have lived to over 120 years old.

I tend to thing "man" in Genesis 6:3, refers to mankind. Which leads me to believe that the text means that mankind only has 120 years until the flood.

I agree.

You guys got me thinking on this...

After doing some more research, I called my dad last night to see if both interpretations are legitimate readings of the Genesis 6:3 Hebrew text.

My dad did confirm that both of the following are legitimate readings of the text:
- life spans were reduced to 120 years as a result of the wickedness described in Genesis 6:1-4
or
- mankind had 120 years to live before they would be destroyed for the wickedness described in Genesis 6:1-4

I'll have to mull this over.

Thanks guys!

The tricky part of life spans being reduced to 120 years for all people from then on is that some people have lived for over 120 years so, God would be either wrong or inconsistent.

PaulSacramento wrote:The tricky part of life spans being reduced to 120 years for all people from then on is that some people have lived for over 120 years so, God would be either wrong or inconsistent.

I don't know if a life span of 120 years would make God wrong or inconsistent. As I said earlier we have to take into account the context of the people described in Genesis 6:3, and avoid presumptions regarding people who are not within the Genesis 6:1-4 context.

That said you do have a very valid point. I have done some additional research and I have found no corroboration of Neolithic pre-Flood life spans that match or approach 120 years
- paleopathology tells us that pre-Flood (pre 3000 BC) Neolithic humans had median lifespans of 30 to 35 years (which is much less than 120 years)
- Adam's descendants listed in Genesis 5 had life spans in the 700s to the 900s all the way up to the Flood.
- The Sumerian King List appears to involve life spans similar to those of Adam's descendants in Genesis 5. No one I know of really understands pre-Flood Sumerian numerology. However, we can use the known starting and end points for the pre-Flood kings to see that the time frames match the Genesis 5 starting and end points.

The first pre-Flood king (Alulim) is associated with the founding of Eridu which occurred around 5400 BC. This would make Alulim (the first of 10 pre-Flood kings) roughly contemporary with Adam (the first of the 10 Genesis 5 pre-Flood patriarchs)
The last pre-Flood king (Ziusudra) is associated with the Flood itself which occurred around 3000 BC. This would make Ziusudra (the last of the 10 pre-Flood kings) a contemporary of (If not the same person as) Noah (the last of the 10 pre-Flood Genesis 5 patriarchs.

So even though we don't understand Sumerian numerology, we can use the starting and end points to confirm that the 10 pre-Flood Sumerian kings had similar life spans to the 10 Genesis 5 patriarchs. So the life spans of the Genesis 5 patriarchs and the pre-Flood Sumerian kings extended well beyond 120 years all the way up to the Flood.