Evidence for God from Science

Gman wrote:You know what guys.. I'm looking at my other posts and all I'm doing is repeating myself over and over again.. And I really don't think we are making any progress here.. All that I ask is that you look into G-d's commandments as bringing FREEDOM, GRACE AND LOVE to your lives.. If you teach them as legalism and finished, then it will never work and no one will want to follow them. But I also just realized something else.. It has to be in your heart also.. So in many ways it really doesn't matter what I'm saying or conveying to you. You will have to search your heart. I CANNOT do that for you but only through the Holy Spirit..

May G-d bless you....

I admire your faith and love of the Law.

Regarding G's salvation.
I think Jac said it best. We watched G go through this process on the forum. The Bible says that even the elect can be deceived. And, yes we must humbly admit that each of us could be deceived.
I can safely say that the Gospel is not, 'trust Christ, plus convert to Judaism.' I don't think this is how G came to faith, as we saw at first an interest in Hebrew tradition develop into something else. And this occured long after he had trusted Christ.
Gman condemns the Free Grace message why?
1) Because he believes it promotes living in sin. This much he has made clear.
2) Because of the sin in his own life he was attracted to the Torah following practice. He just testified to this.

This tells me quite a bit. Either someone presented Free Grace in a distorted way, or G came to learn it that way for himself. Either way, that is not consistent with the Free Grace message I have come to learn and preach. If sinful living were OK, then Paul would not have had to write the majority of his letters which dealt with behavioral matters. Despite explaining this over and over, G continues to make these accusations, which simply are NOT true.
And here is the danger. Each of sees our behaviors that do not line up with Holy or Righteous. I think we can all agree in this respect. This can and should trouble the believer. Sadly, this is an area where doubt and confusion creep in. And we have an enemy that seeks to steal, kill and destroy.
If we are made Holy, does the enemy want us to live in a knowledge of this reality? No. He wants us to doubt who we are "In Christ." A believer is only effective when he is walking in the spirit. This isn't some mystical experience. This is putting off the old man, and putting on the new. Paul says, we are new creatures IN CHRIST. The old is gone. Yet, the reality is that we are still in the same physical bodies, which are the remnants of the dead man, or the flesh. This dead body still has the same memories, and stimulations as before. But we absolutely do have a treasure in this earthen vessel. The disconnect is simply that we don't trust this to be the case. We doubt that we are new, holy, righteous, blessed with every spiritual blessing, and seated in heavenly places. What we often do is fail to put off the old man, as well as put on the new man. How does this happen? Through faith. It is all about how we THINK. "Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh." (Romans 13:14)
Am I surprised by Gman's turning to this? No. G looked at his behavior and knew something was not lining up. And like most of us, he likely began to doubt who He was, IN CHRIST. And religion found a foothold. I think we can all agree that he is well endoctrinated into this movement. And it seems that there is little we can do through discussion and debate. However, if G did trust in Christ alone, then He absolutely is saved, and we can pray that God will move in his heart.

"For this reason I kneel before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name. I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God. Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, 21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen. (Eph. 3:14-21)

jlay wrote:And here is the danger. Each of sees our behaviors that do not line up with Holy or Righteous. I think we can all agree in this respect. This can and should trouble the believer. Sadly, this is an area where doubt and confusion creep in. And we have an enemy that seeks to steal, kill and destroy.
If we are made Holy, does the enemy want us to live in a knowledge of this reality? No. He wants us to doubt who we are "In Christ." A believer is only effective when he is walking in the spirit. This isn't some mystical experience. This is putting off the old man, and putting on the new. Paul says, we are new creatures IN CHRIST. The old is gone. Yet, the reality is that we are still in the same physical bodies, which are the remnants of the dead man, or the flesh. This dead body still has the same memories, and stimulations as before. But we absolutely do have a treasure in this earthen vessel. The disconnect is simply that we don't trust this to be the case. We doubt that we are new, holy, righteous, blessed with every spiritual blessing, and seated in heavenly places. What we often do is fail to put off the old man, as well as put on the new man. How does this happen? Through faith. It is all about how we THINK. "Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh." (Romans 13:14)

I do not doubt Gman's salvation nor are we qualified to judge this, so we should not judge and must stop this. Seeing, as I stated earlier how some groups within the Messianic Movement stray into Legalism thinking they are fulfilling the instructions mentioned in James 5:19-20 regarding their personal mission toward the church:

My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20 NASB

I saw firsthand how well meaning folks made the written codes in the Torah, an Idol. No other way to say it. Yes, you can make the Law an idol. Jesus fought against this mindset and rebuked many for it.

As others have stated – as Romans 7:6 states: But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter. NASB – we serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

Why? Is the written law bad in and of itself – NO – on the contrary the written law exposes sin and the sin of making it an idol too. Now read Romans 7:7, 8, 13 and Romans 8:2, 3, 4, 5 -Following legalism, manifest sin in the heart, even the sin of making the law an idol.

I seen this before in folks and we must be aware of this. I know God is sovereign and permits objective lessons so we can all learn from. Let us learn from this thread the danger of making the law an idol. Likewise, folks can make Free Grace and idol too, if they use it a license to sin. However, the great majority of free grace people do not teach sin that grace abounds. I don’t personally know any who have made it an idol either.

God’s grace is free and by it, we learn to serve in the newness of the Spirit and thus learn to walk by the Spirit as the bible teaches us. Thus, we, by God’s free grace, have the Law of the Spirit of Christ written in our hearts. Also, the Holy Spirit teaches us things. In this way, God’s free grace can’t be made into an idol to justify sin.

However the written Law (torah) can become an idol to serve to prove one’s fellowship with Christ through performance. This performance is pride and one-upmanship over others. It is condemnatory and soon one’s words are no longer grace seasoned with salt that preserves the soul (Col 4:5, 6) but rather phrases that demand that one must do or else you aren't in the in crowd.

Sadly, like the article I referenced a few pages back, some Messianic Groups slide into legalism and the crux of their ax to grind is based on brow beating other Christians as being antinomian heretics but they are the true restored group – why – they follow the law – lawfully! Often in such groups the sermons taught there primarily deal with fault finding with lots of nit picking added in that serves to justify their own doctrines about the law. They forget the New Covenant:

Jeremiah 31:33, But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. NKJV

A very sad estate to fall into: failing to recognize the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of a believer of sanctification. Then lambast this work as not following the law! This is the very nature that defines Pride as pride because it accuses people falsely for not submitting to the idol of law.

What does the bible say?

Eze 36:25-26, 27, Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. NKJV

So for all of us reading this, what group are 'we' entangled with – what do they teach? If it is condemnation, false accusations, brow beating other members of the body of Christ as being antinomian heretics, smugly justifying the idol of law, done while patting of themselves back for doing so – well if you are in such group – it time to flee from that group.

Why flee? The answer is simple - the inner workings of the Holy Spirit in a believer’s life are nullified for following written codes as the absolute measure of one’s spirituality. Soon, only outward appearances matter. I have seen groups begin well and then fall into the legalism trap where mandatory dress adherence had to be observed. Soon when folks came to their Assembly, they looked more Hasidic than followers of Christ, even dividing their congregation with a physical partition to separate the women from the men during the meetings and guest – well you sit at the back of that bus.

Titus 3:5 ….not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. NKJV

So let us become aware of falling in sync with such wayward groups and not do so. If you are, think of leaving asap.

The sovereignty of God works in mysterious ways and we welcome honest discourse, even when mod’s on the form don’t agree with each other in all areas. I trust in God’s sovereignty and in no way think or feel that any mod needs to leave the moderator team. This thread’s dialogue has opened up the truth about what Free Grace is, what it is about, and that it does not teach – we can sin so that grace abounds - as many falsely indict.
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B. W. wrote:
God’s grace is free and by it, we learn to serve in the newness of the Spirit and thus learn to walk by the Spirit as the bible teaches us. Thus, we, by God’s free grace, have the Law of the Spirit of Christ written in our hearts. Also, the Holy Spirit teaches us things. In this way, God’s free grace can’t be made into an idol to justify sin.

Bryan, don't tell me that you too have fallen into Free Grace crapology?

Actually, I feel bad for Gman, bad in one sense that he alone has to defend what he sees as true. I mean replying to everyone can be overwhelming. You feel like you have been hit on all sides.

I am not sure to the extent of G's messgae. But I doubt it has some points I always carried with me too. 18 months back I and Jilay had a long discussion on the matter. I was speaking more in line of what Gman is saying today. Though I don't think it is a false gospel. Its hard to say. One thing I know G says over and over that salvation comes from Christ. On that I do not think he has any problems with anyone here. He also says that to follow torah is equal to walking in spirit. This is what he believes. To him action and faith are not two entities they are the same. This is more or less what I believed too, until I realized grace.

Free grace crapology as Gman likes to put it, is something which is so radical, its frightening at times. I say this as a mortal man, who can not in all of its entirety understand grace and its complete depth. For that matter I do not think anyone can. One thing I do know is that grace saves me and it is just anti-law. It just is. Grace is the exact anti-thesis of the law. These two can not abide under the same roof, in one body. They just can not. They both are two separate covenants and contrary to popular belief they can not work in more or less. They work only when they are completely followed. Its all in or out. Was Christ under grace, no. He was under law, so that we could be in grace.

Either grace saves all, your works don't matter or you are justified by the law and you can not have grace in that. I remember the turning point in my thoughts. It was when Jilay asked me a question:

"If you are standing before God, would you like to be saved by grace alone or by your obedience?"

And to be honest with you guys, as much as a fence buster it is, it rang a bell with me because I came to realize this was a big big problem, because it was true. And worse I had an answer which I didn't like. And it made me think. I lost many a nights sleep over it. Grace scared me. In one sense because it justified everything under Christs blood, with no consequences. And as terrible as an idea it sounded at that time, the more problematic was, it is the same grace which saved a prostitute, a robber, a murderer and many more. It made no sense to me.

It took time and gradually I saw that grace was beautiful and I saw that if I have to logically consistent then yes grace is the only way out for a sinner. I turned to Bart for help via pm and he very kindly helped me understand some of the problems I was having with "free grace."

I think most people just do not understand grace. I think most see it as lawyers, accountants. While in truth, it is absolute trust and forgiveness in Christ. The reality of this, when it soaks into you, and it may take time, it opens up the mind.

I saw for the first time, why were the jews so critical of Christ. Was it because he was disobeying the law? They had nothing on him on that front. What scared them was absolute grace which permeated through Christ and his message. He made is sound so "reachable" that prostitutes had a better chance than rabbi's to enter God's promise and glory. Even today more people are concerned with "how a sinner can ABUSE grace." Then they are with how many lives it can change.

I personally think that if we are going to be logically consistent then yes, following the law, when it becomes a goal as part of a Christian life, ends up in legalism of mild or extreme manner. Of Course no one likes to be called a legalist and I am sure no one would admit they are. But the thing is, how else do you do it?

Either grace saves all or it saves none. And either the law must be completely followed or completely broken. You can not have both. I can see why G feels the way he does. In his thoughts action and faith are synonymous. I used to think the same.

I mentioned Deut 28 in my previous posts for a reason. because it exactly highlights the problem.

G mainly did not reply to all of my post, basically the point I wanted to discuss...but here is what he did reply to.

neo-x wrote:
Yes that reward is spelled out in Deuteronomy 28

And immediately after is the reward for not keeping the law.

Take these words G, "Just as it pleased the Lord to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. " what is this? a love message?

Gman wrote
If you want to call G-d's commandments and judgements non-loving ways, that is an issue you might want to bring up with Him on judgement day.

You see, the point is lost here because I am asking something else. I can see why. There is no answer to that chapter - deut 28. You have to take it as it is and the thing is it doesn't sound nice. God saying in a complete way, if you do not follow my law, you are done. I will see to it. I don't want to paint Gman in a corner. Because the truth is, I was no better when I tried to argue for the same. I really want that he can come to see grace in a more deep and thoughtful way then he does now.

The irony is, it is grace itself which has allowed Gman to be a part of the the Jewish Law and culture without being under the law and its rewards, good or bad based on how you obey them.

Now, G says that if you are saved by faith you will WANT to follow the law, as if that inclination is something which is only natural-inherent to the process of coming to christ...and we in the right intended order of things must follow it. Though he maintains we are not saved by them. I have yet to hear what he thinks will happen if we disobey them. he hasn't given a straight answer. I imagine it would be difficult, because it may be difficult to cut through the assumption we are carrying and he can't help but point those out else he may have to concede the point later.

So I wouldn't call it a false gospel, its not that yet. But I do see the potential that it can become one if pursued to extreme and end up in legalism. It all depends on what teachings, the Gman's messianic group holds to regarding such things. I will certainly like to know the lines of disobedience or sin and their consequences.

At times I am confused of what is being argued. I am told that the O.T laws are good (I doubt if anyone will disagree, I think they bring disaster nonetheless) , that they are still in effect (I disagree). But what are the lines, where do you stop or start. I think its cherry picked, whatever you can follow follow it out. And there is nothing wrong with that, grace allows you to do that. But logically on its own to keep the law - it can not be done, practically it can not be done. The law is not up for grabs. It is not upto anyone to decide what they can or can not follow. Because being under grace, the law has no merit.

So, I will simply ask again, what was asked from me...when you stand before God, are you saved by grace or by obedience?

I hope your trust is in Christ. Because if that is so then following the law or not, following sabbaths, or church or man or pulpit, means nothing. Christ is the only one who is the living word of God and when we are in him we are his. Trust him with all your heart and mind, trust him where reason and logic may not prevail. I am trying to trust Christ with grace. I really struggle to do that at times. yet I know therein lies hope for all of, for we all need grace. God's law was good and yet the same brought disaster for the sinner. Law keeps the body clean by jewish standards, it changes the way you live. It adds nothing to your spiritual growth. The law changes no one. I hope you remember that.

RickD wrote:

B. W. wrote:
God’s grace is free and by it, we learn to serve in the newness of the Spirit and thus learn to walk by the Spirit as the bible teaches us. Thus, we, by God’s free grace, have the Law of the Spirit of Christ written in our hearts. Also, the Holy Spirit teaches us things. In this way, God’s free grace can’t be made into an idol to justify sin.

Bryan, don't tell me that you too have fallen into Free Grace crapology?

Hmmm, better than klown'n around the house knowledge

Seriously - one must first prove that God's gift to humanity, Jesus Christ, and the work completed on the cross is not offered freely in accordance to John 3:16

Secondly, one must prove that God's free grace does not lead to a repentant life described in Titus 2:11 Titus 2:12 NIV, Titus 2:13, 14, 15...

God's grace cost him a lot but his Grace for us is still free to accept or reject: hence Free Grace.

People’s analytical style of dissection is the problem when it concerns God’s grace. God’s free grace contains the whole package of Repentance, Lordship, Discipleship, Equipping, etc and etc done by trusting in God’s sovereign workings within a believer by the Holy Spirit. Free Grace involves the whole of salvation's workings and not in separate optional packages as expounded on by many in both the Free Gracer camp and those opposed camps. The pride of wanting to be right at all cost seems to me in my opinion the real reason why anyone would debate God's grace shown to humanity as not free and sufficient for salvation's working wholeness in any person.

The problem comes in the intellectual dissection and making mountains out of mole hills. The older than the hills I get, the more I see how through experience God’s Grace actually works freely in the life of a blood bought Christian. God knows what he is doing in the life of a new believer and he knows who are his. Let it be that. I cannot add to it. Most new believers do not die seconds after they believe in Christ. Debating this serves more pride than trusting in God knowing what he is doing. The Holy Spirit invades the life of a Christian, and begins to pervade, the life of a Christian – naturally. It is His work, not mine.

Grace is amazing, don’t leave home without it. It changes your life’s course and grace trust in God’s sovereignty more than reform theology would like to admit. God’s free hand of Grace works wonders in the life of a Christian so that no glory comes to a person for the change wrought in their respective lives, only Glory to God for changing such wretches as we.

I can strain on the commode of legalism all I want too and my efforts are more gaseous than sweet smelling to the Lord than I first expected. Trusting in God’s grace each hour, changes lives, how it works – unknown but the change is natural and comes easy.

This walk of grace involves going to God’s woodshed a lot, learning from the errors of one’s ways, so one turns away from errors of sin/pride naturally. I sure can strain a whole bunch and think I am holier than thou based on the stink of my deeds but off to the woodshed I’d go for such thinking – grace does chasten us – by its stripes we learn firsthand, that we are truly saved.
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Neo wrote:
He(Gman)also says that to follow torah is equal to walking in spirit. This is what he believes. To him action and faith are not two entities they are the same. This is more or less what I believed too, until I realized grace.

Neo, I believe this is a crucial sticking point, especially what I bolded. How do you see action and faith now?

I think this is also a key point in discussions with Catholics. I believe Catholics believe they are justified by faith, but they also see action and faith as one.

Jac, jlay, I'd like your take on this too, since you two are the chief free grace crapologists.

You guys seem to be making it an either/or thing and I don't think that Gman sees it that way.
I maybe mistaken but I think Gman sees that placing your faith in Christ is what leads you to obey the Law out of love for Christ.

PaulSacramento wrote:You guys seem to be making it an either/or thing and I don't think that Gman sees it that way.
I maybe mistaken but I think Gman sees that placing your faith in Christ is what leads you to obey the Law out of love for Christ.

I think you hit the nail on the head, as far as what Gman believes. But, since Neo said he used to think the same way as Gman is thinking, and now sees it differently, I'd like Neo to explain his different perspective.

RickD wrote:

Neo wrote:
He(Gman)also says that to follow torah is equal to walking in spirit. This is what he believes. To him action and faith are not two entities they are the same. This is more or less what I believed too, until I realized grace.

Neo, I believe this is a crucial sticking point, especially what I bolded. How do you see action and faith now?

I think this is also a key point in discussions with Catholics. I believe Catholics believe they are justified by faith, but they also see action and faith as one.

jlay, Jac, I'd like your take on this too, since you two are the chief free grace crapologists.

FTFY

Seems to me a major sticking point. Faith is not an action. It is trust. Actually, when you really get down to it, faith/trust is the cessation of working. If I'm trusting Jesus to save me, what I'm really doing is ceasing to do anything to save myself. So unless you are going to tell me that to stop acting is an act (obviously self contradictory), then there is no way that faith is an action.

What I really bet is that the real sticking point is the nature of faith.

jac wrote:
Seems to me a major sticking point. Faith is not an action. It is trust. Actually, when you really get down to it, faith/trust is the cessation of working. If I'm trusting Jesus to save me, what I'm really doing is ceasing to do anything to save myself. So unless you are going to tell me that to stop acting is an act (obviously self contradictory), then there is no way that faith is an action.

Seems logical to me.

jac wrote:
What I really bet is that the real sticking point is the nature of faith.

Expound, Por favor.

Never mind Jac, I found it here:
http://cmmorrison.wordpress.com/2010/08/10/faith/

Good stuff Jac. Good stuff.

Here is an interesting blog note I found. I don't know anything about the author other than he raises valid points. He also explains a few things I was trying to communicate in my last post...

http://thereforenow.com/2010/11/disappo ... -movement/

Does anyone know if the gospel as taught in NT times was broken into distinct systematic parts? So far, I haven't found any.
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RickD wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:You guys seem to be making it an either/or thing and I don't think that Gman sees it that way.
I maybe mistaken but I think Gman sees that placing your faith in Christ is what leads you to obey the Law out of love for Christ.

I think you hit the nail on the head, as far as what Gman believes. But, since Neo said he used to think the same way as Gman is thinking, and now sees it differently, I'd like Neo to explain his different perspective.

Yes.. Thank you Rick and Paul for understanding. We cannot obey the law unto salvation.. We simply can't.. Faith IS trust in Christ and that is how we are saved. Through faith ONLY and not by ANY works of the law or commandments... However, under the influence of the Holy Spirit, the type of faith we have will LEAD us to obey Christ commandments whether they are in the OT or NT since Christ created ALL the commandments, since He is G-d almighty in the flesh. We follow Christ's commandments IN FAITH. That is really all I'm saying.... Not to get brownie points, not to earn salvation, etc...

Now look at Romans 16:26 and 1:5, it clearly states that obedience comes FROM faith...

Romans 16:26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith.

Romans 1:5 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake.