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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)
Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 2:11 pm
by Jac3510
RickD wrote:jpbg wrote:
B.W. That wasn't my argument for or against SOAS. I was just showing two of the hole in the article. The one where the Bible say someone abandoned the faith and started fallowing satan, and the other one he said the widows may or may not have been true believers. which would mean that OSAS may be wrong.
Ok, now I'm really confused! What's SOAS?
Saved On A Sailboat?
Saved Or Absolutely Saved?
Same Old Arnold Schwarzenegger?
As it happened, I just watched all the Predator films this past weekend. Arnie's was, of course, the best. But I just really enjoyed those stupid films.
Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)
Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 2:18 pm
by RickD
Jac3510 wrote:RickD wrote:jpbg wrote:
B.W. That wasn't my argument for or against SOAS. I was just showing two of the hole in the article. The one where the Bible say someone abandoned the faith and started fallowing satan, and the other one he said the widows may or may not have been true believers. which would mean that OSAS may be wrong.
Ok, now I'm really confused! What's SOAS?
Saved On A Sailboat?
Saved Or Absolutely Saved?
Same Old Arnold Schwarzenegger?
As it happened, I just watched all the Predator films this past weekend. Arnie's was, of course, the best. But I just really enjoyed those stupid films.
I only liked the original Predator.
But getting back on topic, did you notice that jpbg said that someone "started fallowing Satan"?
I can't believe someone " plowed and harrowed Satan, but left him unsown for a period in order to restore his fertility as part of a crop rotation or to avoid surplus production."
I guess I gotta read scripture a little better. The things I miss sometimes...
Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)
Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 2:32 pm
by Jac3510
grammarnaziftw
Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)
Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 2:40 pm
by RickD
jpbg wrote:
RickD you said that SOSO may not be true. I am explaining this under this quote from you.
http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/s ... iever.html this is the link
In that article you were just taking any verse that says you can fall away and explained them as talking about unbelievers falling away not true believers, but the Bible dose not talk about unbelievers falling away, because they were not following Jesus in the first place. When the Bible says that someone stopped following Jesus then It means what It said that someone that was following Jesus stopped following Him.
These are two of the verses in your article.
Ahh...now I get it. You think I'm Rich Deem.
I'm RickD, not Rich Deem.
Rich Deem is the owner of this site.
I'm just a lowly moderator/grammar nazi.
Go peddle your works gospel elsewhere.
Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)
Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:01 pm
by crochet1949
crochet1949 wrote:My understanding is based on the fact that immediately upon a person's salvation, the Holy Spirit comes to indwell the believer and never leaves. The person's soul is safe with Christ until we are actually with Him for eternity. Scripture Also says that 'by their fruits, we will know them'. There Should be a change in the born-again believer's life of Some sort. If nothing Else, a new desire to read God's Word, a new understanding Of it, a look on their face of contentment -- a desire to share their faith with others.
Unfortunately there are those who have 'walked the aisle' in a church or evangelistic meeting -- they are encourage to join in a group prayer and sign a card. Or they are talked with by a person, but not really Talked to about Why they came forward. The person might not really understand what is going on and were simply told to 'go forward' and everything would be taken care of. So they leave with a very false concept of being 'saved'. Going to a meeting or service hasn't 'changed' them at all. So the thought is 'why bother' cause nothing Has changed. People observe them living exactly the way they Had been living. So - Christianity gets a 'bum wrap'.
And the only responses I got was concerning my 'bum wrap' comment from RickD. and Philip. Had really hoped for something of a more serious nature.
Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)
Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:25 pm
by RickD
crochet1949 wrote:crochet1949 wrote:My understanding is based on the fact that immediately upon a person's salvation, the Holy Spirit comes to indwell the believer and never leaves. The person's soul is safe with Christ until we are actually with Him for eternity. Scripture Also says that 'by their fruits, we will know them'. There Should be a change in the born-again believer's life of Some sort. If nothing Else, a new desire to read God's Word, a new understanding Of it, a look on their face of contentment -- a desire to share their faith with others.
Unfortunately there are those who have 'walked the aisle' in a church or evangelistic meeting -- they are encourage to join in a group prayer and sign a card. Or they are talked with by a person, but not really Talked to about Why they came forward. The person might not really understand what is going on and were simply told to 'go forward' and everything would be taken care of. So they leave with a very false concept of being 'saved'. Going to a meeting or service hasn't 'changed' them at all. So the thought is 'why bother' cause nothing Has changed. People observe them living exactly the way they Had been living. So - Christianity gets a 'bum wrap'.
And the only responses I got was concerning my 'bum wrap' comment from RickD. and Philip. Had really hoped for something of a more serious nature.
I seriously agree with the underlined. And that is the essence of OSAS. Or ASOS. Or SOSO.
Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)
Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 9:02 pm
by Philip
Sorry, Crotchet. I agree with you. One thought, we've had these discussions of how some might be saved but we can't be certain - because salvation cannot be works based. However, I believe that anyone claiming over a significant period to be a Christian, and we don't see at least SOME indications of it, then they are likely not saved.
Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)
Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 2:39 am
by RickD
Philip wrote:Sorry, Crotchet. I agree with you. One thought, we've had these discussions of how some might be saved but we can't be certain - because salvation cannot be works based. However, I believe that anyone claiming over a significant period to be a Christian, and we don't see at least SOME indications of it, then they are likely not saved.
So Philip,
How long have you been a fruit inspector?
Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)
Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 6:42 am
by Byblos
Philip wrote:Sorry, Crotchet. I agree with you. One thought, we've had these discussions of how some might be saved but we can't be certain - because salvation cannot be works based. However, I believe that anyone claiming over a significant period to be a Christian, and we don't see at least SOME indications of it, then they are likely not saved.
And you just single-handedly blew OSAS right out of the water.
Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)
Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 7:46 am
by jpbg33
One big problem with y'all's argument is the fact that God does not care if unbelievers leave the church. He just wonts them to get saved. The bible say that sinners are an enemy of God. So when the Bible says someone has fallen away or left the faith it is referring to Christians not sinners. Paul even said he keep the faith. SO if God inspired Paul to write that he kept the faith then maybe God wonts me to keep the faith as well.
Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)
Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 8:49 am
by B. W.
RickD wrote:Philip wrote:Sorry, Crotchet. I agree with you. One thought, we've had these discussions of how some might be saved but we can't be certain - because salvation cannot be works based. However, I believe that anyone claiming over a significant period to be a Christian, and we don't see at least SOME indications of it, then they are likely not saved.
So Philip,
How long have you been a fruit inspector?
How long as he known you?
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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)
Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 9:17 am
by B. W.
jpbg33 wrote:One big problem with y'all's argument is the fact that God does not care if unbelievers leave the church. He just wonts them to get saved. The bible say that sinners are an enemy of God. So when the Bible says someone has fallen away or left the faith it is referring to Christians not sinners. Paul even said he keep the faith. SO if God inspired Paul to write that he kept the faith then maybe God wonts me to keep the faith as well.
Not really because according to the principles mentioned in Heb 13:5-6, "
Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I WILL NEVER LEAVE YOU NOR FORSAKE YOU." 6 So we may boldly say: "THE LORD IS MY HELPER; I WILL NOT FEAR. WHAT CAN MAN DO TO ME?" NASB
The Lord is our helper and as such John 10:27,28,29,30 remains true.
There is only wheat and there is only chaff. It is not by intellectual assent alone that saves a person, there also is revelation that changes the direction of the heart. A Christian person over time thru life's ups and downs indeed shows inner change that effects life around them and such change comes natural and not works based. God knows the heart, we do not.
One cannot keep themselves saved either as that makes it a case of continually putting Jesus on the cross every day to cover failures. Jesus paid it all, once and for all...
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Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them." Heb 7:25 NKJV
Hebrews 7:25 and Hebrews 13:5-6 contradict many teachings on Hebrews chapter 6 and 10 concerning losing salvation so chapter 6 and especially chapter 10 verses logically speak of something else - those who are pretenders who betray the Church turning church members over to be arrested and killed....as per context of Hebrews chapter Ten....
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PS
Suggest folks look into what saving to the uttermost really means...
Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)
Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 10:00 am
by jpbg33
I think that people need to look at what the Bible says instead of what they think it means according to what they believe. know matter what you can not take out of the Bible that God inspired Paul to write he kept the faith and that was what Paul was writing about all though his writings and that was what he meant when he said people abandoned the faith or they fell away or they left the faith. God was inspiring him to write about keeping the faith. He also wrote to hold fast to that which ye believe. God inspired Paul to write that he kept the faith.
One other thing form the Bible "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks". I may not know someone's heart but I can see how they live and according to Jesus if they are not living right then there heart isn't right.
Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)
Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 10:07 am
by Philip
God is ALL-knowing! This means He sees every step of your earthly life and every single decision and action you will ever make - and He see all of those ALL AT ONCE! So, does God save a man He already knows will be incapable of staying faithful, fully seeing some (supposed) day in which that man ultimately rejects Him? WHY would He call us to TEMPORARY life? How could we possibly have the peace and reassurance of Scripture, if our salvation is not ETERNAL and FOREVER? If the salvation of ANY of us is, in any way, dependent upon OUR ability to persevere, we should each be very worried and scared, that is, if we are making an honest assessment of ourselves, our weaknesses and sinful tendencies.
Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)
Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 10:09 am
by Philip
So Philip,
How long have you been a fruit inspector?
I didn't say I was perfect at it. But Scripture tells us the "fruit" can indeed be inspected.