Evidence for God from Science

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:Dan was clear when he said "and rightly so" that it is more than law, but rather his personal opinion Christians need punishing in many instances that have been presented where it's not necessarily cases of discrimination against a person. He is an SJW quick to blame and condemn Christians for their beliefs.

Yes rightly so according to the law of discrimination, the same would apply to an atheist, Muslim, agnostic or any other ideology that broke the law. We have laws for a reason, so that our society functions in a way that if fair and just for all people, our whole judicial system and even our democratic government were founded on biblical principles. So yes it is right and it is just that these people are prosecuted according to the laws that govern our land, because without them we end up like the countries that kill people just because they are different.

I don't even know what an SJW is, I don't know if you can really be something unless you know what it is.

You can hurl your insults all you like, it just makes your arguments look childish and petty, but please continue, don't let me stop you from your own self destruction.

There is this search tool called Google, it really helps to find out things you don't know, you Social Justice Warrior (SJW) you. But, I'll here attempt to cut through some later silly exchanges between us being had, to spell out what I identify as the central issue here.

Ultimately, what this all comes down to, whether or not you realise, is the SJW mentality that has built up in European/Western societies. In Australia, it seems to be heightening even among Christians, what are often understood to be "progressive" social views. I bet, I could spit out many issues that you and Melanie would agree on. Neo-X to a lesser extent, though Westernised social view do seem to be getting through to him over in Pakistan. Such is the globalised world we find ourselves in today, thanks in large part to the Internet.

People get so worked up over "discrimination" against Muslims, hence why in some states of Australia what are essentially anti-blasphemy laws are being passed. Apparent discrimination against LGBT, direct, and "indirect" as you say which often crosses into ones beliefs. Extreme feminism, multiculturalism, global warming and so on and so forth. At the polar end, society normally sees Christians, Pro-Lifers or the like against such things and maligns them with Nazism, KKK or some such nonsense. (just take some responses, in one post Dan likens not providing a service to a group considered a minority -- not making a gay activist website or a cake with a message that supports gay marriage -- "leads to a society that murders millions." Nazi associations are soon made some posts further along.) Anyone who doesn't become extremely sensitive is deemed a racist, bigot, hateful, associated with the evils of Nazi Germany, the KKK or like. Such is Political Correctness gone wrong.

To be clear, PC gone wrong leads to people with a heightened sensitivity, indeed their baseline sensitivity to social issues has been raised by their social environments, and the absolute trash news media reports on socially, TV shows, movies and the like -- all brainwash with the social messages always being pushed. It is a normalisation process being pushed by those who control such mediums wanting to divide or strongly push their views.

Consider how people become desensitized, whether it is watching movies with lots of gore, playing games that otherwise freak you out. or in real-life wars to the violence and bloodshed. One adapts to the environment they find themselves in, or that which they are continually in contact with. Movies, games or the like that once may have freaked us out, no longer do -- we've become desensatisted. Pornography has a similar affect, and no doubt, is a main reason why the value of sex, women, children has diminished. Similarly, within our society and one being cooked in a socially "progressive" climate.

The Apostle Paul was well aware to similar social norms in his day, roaming around as he did to debate and preach the good news of Jesus as the Messiah prophesied of in Scripture. This is why he warns us as Christians to not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of our mind. For then, we will be able to test and approve what God's will is (not man's)--his good, pleasing and perfect will. (Romans 12:2-3)

Sadly, strongly associated with today's "progressive" social views is truth being shown the door. (something Nessa very rightly touches upon earlier!) Truth is pesky, because it is normally very quite confronting. Truth causes division. Truth is discriminatory either directly or "indirectly" as you say. For these reasons, truth in our "progressively" enlightened society is simply relegated to a scenario of "your truth, but I have my own truth" rather than truth being an immovable line. And then the truth of Gospel, that we must repent by turning to Christ and acknowledging our sin, becomes diminished leading to more Universalist Christian views which find no support in Scripture.

As Christ who is the Truth said, "For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW; and A MAN’S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD." (Matt 10:35-36)

Indeed, I can personally relate to matters of truth separate myself from certain family members, though it isn't necessarily to do with Christianity but rather family issues. Take the words even of my own father who said to me regarding certain issues of the past for the supposed sake of peace and harmony:

• I have given up on the attempt of truth seeking and the story unfolding of our family of the past. I did not care as all these things are past acts and actions. They have become distorted caricatures. Actors in a old remake black and white movie with segments unwatchable due to its deterioration. I have forgiven them all and myself. I have dropped into God sea of forgetfulness. But one thing I will never forget – the pain felt by everyone. For that leads me to compassion, wisdom and understanding.

Basically, a denial of truth, denial of any validation. Just wanting to sweep everything under the carpet without any true reckoning for the sake of some peace and pseudo-relationship. God never forgets, knows the truth, and God remembers everything, indeed before the world even began God knew ALL. There is no sea of forgetfulness when it comes to truth or true forgiveness which firstly must acknowledge a true wrong before being forgiven. No matter how smeared or clouded the truth might become, there is the truth of the matter. And TRUE forgiveness indeed can't be received from God, unless we come to Him and acknowledge our true sin. Reconciliation can't be had with another who wrongs us, until there is a true reckoning. Anything less, building a relationship upon matters not truly reckoned with, leads to a relationship that can have the rug pulled out in an instant toppling it all.

I present this example above, because my Dad too has become largely acclimatised to social undercurrents. Sadly, such is the world we find ourselves in, where people run from truth. Our "progressive" societies don't want truth, but rather want love and acceptance without responsibility and truth, acceptance of all lifestyles no matter how far they stray from God's design and standards. This leads to further break downs, society further breaking down and indeed the millions of deaths. Here is a message on a shirt that Wikileaks which I fully endorse:
Sadly, it isn't people -- Christian people -- being unloving or discriminatory. Rather, it is ultimately matters of truth, and truth directly cuts through and runs against the grain of the social "progressive" views and the politically correct climate saturating many societies today. This leads to many having an extremely high and irrational sensitivity over certain issues like gay marriage, such that they react and think people are attacking and being hateful when they stick to their beliefs of what is true that may affront such.

The bible warns of a great apostasy. That is the pattern that happened to ancient Israel - many went the way of apostasy and accepted the cultural norms of the nations around them and brought it into synagogues as well too. However, a remnant remained true to the Lord and periods of revival followed.

In the latter days there will another apostasy and I think we have evidence here of that happening all around us in the Church as well as outside as well too.

Spoke with some church planters and church growth ministers and I was shocked by what I heard about how to grow numbers for a church. Here are just a few:

+Declining Church membership...can be cured by marketing techniques

+How do we attract youth and early career types into the Church?

+Launch Social Justice awareness - youth like that as they learn these things in school - makes them feel they are doing something. Do social justice things - hold SJ events/awareness

+Dress down, look hip/cool like I am with you

+Pastor sits on Bar Stool to preach on church stage

+Side with popular issues of the day in sermons

+Control the music - meaning: use music as a tool to control the mood of the congregation

+Never discuss Hell or ever use bible verses that hint or mention conviction as that condemns because Youth/ and 25-35 year old people feelings are hurt by conviction or bible verses that condemn - these folks earning potential grows and tithing and offering potential along with it

+Blend self help psychology into messages (due to self help psychology market being a big seller in America)

+Over emphasize that God loves people because he see's in them that they are worth saving because they are all wonderful, have destiny, because God did not make junk; that God saved them because they are not His enemies but rather they are simply so wonderful and important and sweet, etc and etc

+thou must not offend (for it hurteth thy coffers)


Result: church is still in decline...

A. W. Tozer that said something to this effect: If the Holy Spirit were to leave the church, nobody would notice...

If Billy Graham suddenly was able to preach again like he did from 1950s thru 1990s today - he would be in jail for violating PC rules of conduct and for using and promoting hate speech that offends.

So what are the best church growth techniques?

Stop trying to build it yourself...

Proverbs 3:5,6,7 holds the key
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And there I thought that Mel and I were having such a nice exchange of ideas and views...then this comes along...

I completely understand what B.W. was referring to, with a few comments:

+Declining Church membership...can be cured by marketing techniques

Of course, this is attempting to build a church around a business technique. But promoting positive programs like youth activities is fine. The problem is WHAT exactly are you promoting and what are the limits of what you should do with that, and what should it never take the place of: Godly values and NT-based instructions of how to make the (universal) Church and local body most effective FOR CHRIST.

+How do we attract youth and early career types into the Church?

Nothing wrong with wanting to do that, or to attract those with families and young children. But if you are merely trying to attract numbers and a financial base, this is very wrong-headed.

+Launch Social Justice awareness - youth like that as they learn these things in school - makes them feel they are doing something. Do social justice things - hold SJ events/awareness

Nothing wrong with social justice. But such issues needs to be framed in changing hearts and minds by Christ, so that our actions and policies best reflect what is inside of us. If SOCIAL JUSTICE becomes or is the focus, then it skews what the purpose of the Church is.

+Dress down, look hip/cool like I am with you

I don't know about looking cool and hip (rather silly). But having an atmosphere of casual attire keeps things more welcoming - in which people don't have to worry that they can't afford really nice clothes or can't dress like people of lesser means - because this keeps huge amounts of people away from church ("I don't fit in. I don't have a suit and tie," etc.) I haven't worn a tie to church in 20 years. I go in shorts and running shoes, or jeans, etc.

+Pastor sits on Bar Stool to preach on church stage

Irrelevant how the pastor sits, stands, or whatever.

+Side with popular issues of the day in sermons

Of course, appealing to popular sentiments is a non-focus on the often hard truths of the Gospel. But showing an awareness of WHY and WHAT people are thinking, while showing where such focus and thinking is unScriptural, is best. But re-enforcing positive sentiments of society isn't necessarily a bad thing.

+Control the music - meaning: use music as a tool to control the mood of the congregation

Worship music impacts mood - or it should. Period! But the question is, are you putting on a show, or worshiping God in our church music - WHATEVER it is. That can be a choir or a rock band/praise band setup (like we have).

+Never discuss Hell or ever use bible verses that hint or mention conviction as that condemns because Youth/ and 25-35 year old people feelings are hurt by conviction or bible verses that condemn - these folks earning potential grows and tithing and offering potential along with it

PC-correctness that avoids the difficult teachings in Scripture. That would be giving people what they want to hear, as opposed to what they NEED to.

+Blend self help psychology into messages (due to self help psychology market being a big seller in America)

Psychobabble that typically ignores the Gospel and that stresses a "do-it-yourself" approach to self improvement that would mostly be merely cosmetic.

+Over emphasize that God loves people because he see's in them that they are worth saving because they are all wonderful, have destiny, because God did not make junk; that God saved them because they are not His enemies but rather they are simply so wonderful and important and sweet, etc and etc

PC style of those like Joel Osteen - or rather, "feel-good" sermonetts that don't call for Biblically based self-introspection, and that denies what God says about man and his sin nature.

+thou must not offend (for it hurteth thy coffers)

If a pastor isn't occasionally offending, he's probably not preaching the Gospel.

So what are the best church growth techniques?

Stop trying to build it yourself...

Of course, that's delusional and dangerous to think possible.

philip wrote:
I completely understand what Scott was referring to, with a few comments:

Philip,

I believe it was actually B. W. who said those things you quoted.

Maybe your man bun is a little too tight, cutting off circulation to your brain!

That was B.W., but I do generally agree with his concerns regarding churches.

Wow, just read the previous page. What did I miss?

Sorry, quotes corrected - was B.W. See, even the mere thought of having a man bun skews my brain.

Yeah, mine was the better post before B.W.'s, get it right!

This was posted on another website:

I am a man living in Alabama who has never believed in Santa Clause or God. My family and most of my peers are rabid evangelicals.

For 28 years I have been preached to in a desperate attempt to save me from hell. The only thing I have seen is a legion of cowards using soft rhetoric to make their ideas more palatable to the ignorant fools who begin throwing their money at the Church. The people who beg me to follow their creed are mocked by children with the most rudimentary logic as they abandon the commands of their God and whore themselves to anyone who will pay them.

I will never count myself among such feckless cowards.

This does not change my decision to stand by Christians and fight the filth this cesspool of a nation is surrendering itself to. I have one thing to offer my Christian brothers, I will die next to them inflicting this on this enemy: an animal hatred of of the trash you have allowed to undermine the country which has allowed me to live my life without repression.

If you do not succeed in your goal it will not only be me who perishes. You will cry out to your God as the evil you believed he would save you from brutally shows you what it is to be ruined.

PaulSacramento wrote:This was posted on another website:

I am a man living in Alabama who has never believed in Santa Clause or God. My family and most of my peers are rabid evangelicals.

For 28 years I have been preached to in a desperate attempt to save me from hell. The only thing I have seen is a legion of cowards using soft rhetoric to make their ideas more palatable to the ignorant fools who begin throwing their money at the Church. The people who beg me to follow their creed are mocked by children with the most rudimentary logic as they abandon the commands of their God and whore themselves to anyone who will pay them.

I will never count myself among such feckless cowards.

This does not change my decision to stand by Christians and fight the filth this cesspool of a nation is surrendering itself to. I have one thing to offer my Christian brothers, I will die next to them inflicting this on this enemy: an animal hatred of of the trash you have allowed to undermine the country which has allowed me to live my life without repression.

If you do not succeed in your goal it will not only be me who perishes. You will cry out to your God as the evil you believed he would save you from brutally shows you what it is to be ruined.

Clearly a troll. There are no atheists in Alabama.

PaulSacramento wrote:This was posted on another website:

I am a man living in Alabama who has never believed in Santa Clause or God. My family and most of my peers are rabid evangelicals.

For 28 years I have been preached to in a desperate attempt to save me from hell. The only thing I have seen is a legion of cowards using soft rhetoric to make their ideas more palatable to the ignorant fools who begin throwing their money at the Church. The people who beg me to follow their creed are mocked by children with the most rudimentary logic as they abandon the commands of their God and whore themselves to anyone who will pay them.

I will never count myself among such feckless cowards.

This does not change my decision to stand by Christians and fight the filth this cesspool of a nation is surrendering itself to. I have one thing to offer my Christian brothers, I will die next to them inflicting this on this enemy: an animal hatred of of the trash you have allowed to undermine the country which has allowed me to live my life without repression.

If you do not succeed in your goal it will not only be me who perishes. You will cry out to your God as the evil you believed he would save you from brutally shows you what it is to be ruined.

Sounds poetic . . . .

Lawsuits against Muslim bakeries?

Double standard?

Christian persecution?

Storyteller wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2015 2:12 pm Yes.
If it was my business to make cakes.
I sell books, I have a copy of the Koran in my shop, along with Mein Kamp.
Its up to my customers to choose what to buy.

Jesus said if we mislead a child, it is better for that man to have a 2-ton millstone tied around his neck and both him and the stone be tossed into the ocean to go to the bottom.

I would never sell a Koran to a child or, by extension of the same principle, to an adult.

It is both legally and ethically wrong to refuse to sell a cake to someone because he is gay. We do have a right to refuse to make a cake that promotes something we believe is morally wrong. There is difference between what a baker sells and who he sells it to.