"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands." (Psalm 19:1)
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I don't understand what you are stating here...Philip wrote:Where does Scripture indicate they are anything other than the angels that followed Satan in rebellion? And we do know where they originated, as they are created beings. And unless they are fallen angels, then they aren't discussed.Scripture does NOT mention what demons are or where they come from.
I'm not sure what you're asking. Assuming that demons are fallen angels, then are you looking for the origin of their fallen state, or the origin of their existence as good angels?PaulSacramento wrote:Where is the origin of demons talked about in the OT or NT?RickD wrote:I always thought demons was just another name for fallen angels. And a simple google search backs that up.PaulSacramento wrote:Scripture does NOT mention what demons are or where they come from.
There are various views ranging from fallen angels to the dead spirits of the nephilim to simply spirits.
We don't have a whole lot of detail about the origin of the demons, but Scripture does drop us some clues.PaulSacramento wrote:Where is the origin of demons talked about in the OT or NT?RickD wrote:I always thought demons was just another name for fallen angels. And a simple google search backs that up.PaulSacramento wrote:Scripture does NOT mention what demons are or where they come from.
There are various views ranging from fallen angels to the dead spirits of the nephilim to simply spirits.
Revelation 12 indicates that Satan gathered a third of the angels as his followers and they were thrown to the earth.3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems. 4 And his tail *swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth.
Jude 1:6 indicates that the fall of Satan's angels involved 'abandoning their proper abode'.6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
In Matthew 12 Jesus refers to Satan's angelic followers as demons.24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “This man casts out demons only by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons.”
25 And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, “Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand? 27 If I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out?
In Matthew 25 Jesus refers to Satan's angelic followers as the devil's 'angels'41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
Paul,PaulSacramento wrote:Ok...not to be an *** about this guys but nowhere in any of that are fallen angels called demons.
Nowhere does any of that describe the origins of demons.
I mean we can assume a few things and read into them BUT haven't we be warning against do that this whole thread ?
Is there any explicit statement saying: "fallen angels are demons"?
or "angels that rebel are demons"?
And if they are and the rebellion happened at Christ;s birth and reign, as Revelation implies, does that mean there were no demons prior to that?
I think I have shown above that Jesus appears to use the terms 'demons' and the devil's 'angels' interchangeably.PaulSacramento wrote:Ok...not to be an *** about this guys but nowhere in any of that are fallen angels called demons.
I would submit that Rev 12:3-4 and Jude 1:6 do reference the fall of Satan's angels/demonsNowhere does any of that describe the origins of demons.
No... but as I noted above, Jesus does appear to use the term demons and the devil's angels interchangeablyIs there any explicit statement saying: "fallen angels are demons"?
Rev 12:1-4 happens before the birth of Christ.And if they are and the rebellion happened at Christ;s birth and reign, as Revelation implies, does that mean there were no demons prior to that?
Again, you need to read what the writers of the bible and Peter and Jude knew and understood about this subject. Proper bible study indeed includes the historical aspect of what these folks who wrote the bible knew and read.PaulSacramento wrote:Ok...not to be an *** about this guys but nowhere in any of that are fallen angels called demons.
Nowhere does any of that describe the origins of demons.
I mean we can assume a few things and read into them BUT haven't we be warning against do that this whole thread ?
Is there any explicit statement saying: "fallen angels are demons"?
or "angels that rebel are demons"?
And if they are and the rebellion happened at Christ;s birth and reign, as Revelation implies, does that mean there were no demons prior to that?
Some interpretations view Rev 12 as the birth of Christ ( others as the analogy for the birth of the church) and if that is so:Rev 12:1-4 happens before the birth of Christ.
However, a legitimate argument can be made that Rev 12:7-9 takes place after the birth of Christ.
The Woman and the Dragon
12 And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. 2 She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth. 3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. 4 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it. 5 She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule[a] all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, 6 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days.
Satan Thrown Down to Earth
7 Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, 8 but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. 11 And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. 12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”
13 And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. 15 The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with a flood. 16 But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river that the dragon had poured from his mouth. 17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood[c] on the sand of the sea.
PaulSacramento wrote:Some interpretations view Rev 12 as the birth of Christ ( others as the analogy for the birth of the church) and if that is so:Rev 12:1-4 happens before the birth of Christ.
However, a legitimate argument can be made that Rev 12:7-9 takes place after the birth of Christ.
The Woman and the Dragon
12 And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. 2 She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth. 3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. 4 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it. 5 She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule[a] all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, 6 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days.
Satan Thrown Down to Earth
7 Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, 8 but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. 11 And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. 12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”
13 And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. 15 The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with a flood. 16 But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river that the dragon had poured from his mouth. 17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood[c] on the sand of the sea.
As you can see, the fall happens after the ( possible interpretation of ) the birth of Christ.
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Satan sweeping 1/3 of the stars out of heaven takes place in Rev 12:3-4.
The birth of the male child occurs in Rev 12:5.
So the birth of Jesus takes place after the Fall of Satan and his followers.
The sequential relationship between Rev 12:1-2 and Rev 12:3-4 is ambiguous because they describe different signs.
However, the sequence of events of the Rev 12 narrative indicates that Rev 12:3-4 takes place sequentially before Rev 12:5.They did'nt have to read God's mind and yes God informed Satan. Read Genesis 3:15.After God told Satan this Satan sent fallen angels in Genesis 6 to try to prevent this from happening by producing hybrid giants/Nephilim to contaminate God's creation.Philip wrote:That is about the wackiest comment I've ever seen on G&S! Please tell me how these fallen angels would have read God's mind? The demonic and Satan do not have knowledge of all things as does God. They would have had NO way of knowing that God planned to one day take on human form. What, you think God informed Satan of this plan? REALLY???!!!ACB: It contaminated God's creation with hybrids in order to try to prevent the birth of Jesus.
The war in heaven(verse 7) is a future war, not the war where Satan was thrown out of heaven,originally.PaulSacramento wrote:Hmmm...Code: Select all
Satan sweeping 1/3 of the stars out of heaven takes place in Rev 12:3-4. The birth of the male child occurs in Rev 12:5. So the birth of Jesus takes place after the Fall of Satan and his followers. The sequential relationship between Rev 12:1-2 and Rev 12:3-4 is ambiguous because they describe different signs. However, the sequence of events of the Rev 12 narrative indicates that Rev 12:3-4 takes place sequentially before Rev 12:5.
So, that fall, the birth and then the war in Heaven?
SO the fall was before the war in which Satan and his angels were cast out?