Evidence for God from Science

jpbg33 wrote:RickD is right no "Belief" All you have to do is believe. The bible does not say that you have to have this much belief to be saved. It said who so ever believeth.

The bible also doesn't say that Jesus looks at our belief to see if it is enough to receive the free gift.

Are you possibly getting 'faith' confused with 'belief'.

Is English possibly your second language? I'm not asking in a critical way -- just wondering.

God's Word says no one needs Anything in order to receive His free gift of salvation.

Ephesians 2:8 - 9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--- and this not from ourselves, it is the gift of God --- not by works, so that no one can boast." NIV

Faith comes by hearing the Word of God.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that who so ever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life."

A lot of the discussion has been referring to a person's actions compared to what they say they Are. A person's outward actions indicates what is inside of them. So the inner person needs to be taken care of -- the spiritual part of us is what matters. That part of us lives on through eternity. Eternity is forever -- to be in heaven or hell. And That does Not need to be a 'hope so'. It Needs to be an 'I am Sure'.

In Sunday School yesterday -- we were talking about salvation. There are Lots of people who grow up in a 'good works necessary' religious environment. It's very hard for them to separate 'good works' from 'heart belief'. That's what a particular woman in class had grown up with. She finally understood that no good works on her part were necessary.

We can know we have eternal life, by believing in Christ.
I don't see anything in that verse about passing a fruit inspector's inspection.
1 John 5:13

I think belief and faith are pretty much the same thing. I think it is like this you believe there for you have faith.

Because if we believe in Jesus then the Bible says we are saved and it also says we are saved by faith alone.

so I see them as the same.

RickD wrote:We can know we have eternal life, by believing in Christ.
I don't see anything in that verse about passing a fruit inspector's inspection.
1 John 5:13

RickD. Look at Galatians 5:22 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control....." And Matthew 7: 16 and 20. That is an interesting chapter. It's talking about watching out for false prophets but can be applied here as well because the fruit of the Spirit is being referred to -- vs 16 "By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes or figs from thistles. vs. 20 Thus, by their fruits you will recognize them."
No one is talking about passing a fruit inspector's inspection.... however.....don't our lives reflect what's on our insides?!

Consider this and the following.

crochet1949 wrote:

RickD wrote:We can know we have eternal life, by believing in Christ.
I don't see anything in that verse about passing a fruit inspector's inspection.
1 John 5:13

RickD. Look at Galatians 5:22 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control....." And Matthew 7: 16 and 20. That is an interesting chapter. It's talking about watching out for false prophets but can be applied here as well because the fruit of the Spirit is being referred to -- vs 16 "By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes or figs from thistles. vs. 20 Thus, by their fruits you will recognize them."
No one is talking about passing a fruit inspector's inspection.... however.....don't our lives reflect what's on our insides?!

Crochet1849,

See Jac's response. NO FRUIT INSPECTION NECESSARY FOR SALVATION! Period!!!!

I never said fruit inspection was Necessary For salvation -- I'm saying that the fruits of the Spirit are listed. At least Some of those qualities Should be present in the life of the born-again believer.

"Should?" Yes. "Necessarily will be"? Not at all. We ought to bear the fruit of the Spirit. We cannot say that all Christians do, or even will at some point, bear the fruit of the Spirit. (cf Luke 8:1-15) Therefore, you cannot say that people who do not or have not or are not bearing the fruit of the Spirit might not (on that "evidence") be saved. That is, not bearing the fruit of the Spirit is no indication that a person is unsaved. That the are undiscipled? Most certainly. That they are not abiding in faith? For sure. But unsaved? No, we simply cannot draw that inference. We can't even suggest it.

Jac3510 wrote:"Should?" Yes. "Necessarily will be"? Not at all. We ought to bear the fruit of the Spirit. We cannot say that all Christians do, or even will at some point, bear the fruit of the Spirit. (cf Luke 8:1-15) Therefore, you cannot say that people who do not or have not or are not bearing the fruit of the Spirit might not (on that "evidence") be saved. That is, not bearing the fruit of the Spirit is no indication that a person is unsaved. That the are undiscipled? Most certainly. That they are not abiding in faith? For sure. But unsaved? No, we simply cannot draw that inference. We can't even suggest it.

Galatians 5:22 "But the fruit of the Spirit IS ....." This verse is saying that when the Holy Spirit comes to indwell the believer -- there Will be a change in that person. The Holy Spirit is waking up the person Spiritually. They have a New Life in Christ. Those verses say that there Will be a change. IF nothing else -- the person Will have inner peace that was Not there before. There Will be a desire to share with others. If there's No change -- then the Holy Spirit has Not come to indwell that person.

crochet1949 wrote:

Jac3510 wrote:"Should?" Yes. "Necessarily will be"? Not at all. We ought to bear the fruit of the Spirit. We cannot say that all Christians do, or even will at some point, bear the fruit of the Spirit. (cf Luke 8:1-15) Therefore, you cannot say that people who do not or have not or are not bearing the fruit of the Spirit might not (on that "evidence") be saved. That is, not bearing the fruit of the Spirit is no indication that a person is unsaved. That the are undiscipled? Most certainly. That they are not abiding in faith? For sure. But unsaved? No, we simply cannot draw that inference. We can't even suggest it.

Galatians 5:22 "But the fruit of the Spirit IS ....." This verse is saying that when the Holy Spirit comes to indwell the believer -- there Will be a change in that person. The Holy Spirit is waking up the person Spiritually. They have a New Life in Christ. Those verses say that there Will be a change. IF nothing else -- the person Will have inner peace that was Not there before. There Will be a desire to share with others. If there's No change -- then the Holy Spirit has Not come to indwell that person.

The old "fruit inspection test".
If thay ain't no fruit, thay ain't no Holy Spirit. If thay ain't no Holy Spirit, thay ain't no salvation.

You keep saying no fruit inspection, yet you keep arguing that if there's no fruit, there's no salvation.

Seems like you're trying to have your fruit, and eat it too.

If the unsaved world can't see any difference in the 'believer' -- why Should they 'want' what we 'have'. Our lives are Supposed to Attract people to Christ / the Father. Why Should they be seeing the 'same old' in the New Creature in Christ.

I believe its not so much about what you do but rather what or whom you ultimately desire.

Paul said I do what I don't want to do and leave undone the things I want to do

You cant just assume that if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck then it must be a duck.

A white washed tomb can look pretty good on the outside but is filled with death on the inside.

crochet1949 wrote:If the unsaved world can't see any difference in the 'believer' -- why Should they 'want' what we 'have'. Our lives are Supposed to Attract people to Christ / the Father. Why Should they be seeing the 'same old' in the New Creature in Christ.

I agree that our lives are supposed to attract people to Christ. And a believer should produce good works. But, the difference between "should", and "must", is crucial to seeing that works aren't necessary for salvation, but should happen when a believer is living by the spirit.

Nessa wrote:I believe its not so much about what you do but rather what or whom you ultimately desire.

Paul said I do what I don't want to do and leave undone the things I want to do

You cant just assume that if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck then it must be a duck.

A white washed tomb can look pretty good on the outside but is filled with death on the inside.

Good point Nessa.

How many "fruit producing" people seem like a Christian on the outside, but they're just trying to be good to please God, without ever trusting Christ? While there are many Christians who have trusted Christ, yet struggle with sin, and to many, don't seem to be showing good works?

That's why fruit inspection, as a method to gauge someone's salvation, fails.