Evidence for God from Science

Judah wrote: Muslim clergy must admit that the Qur'an does indeed incite violence and deal with the problem at source, in other words, with their own so-called holy book.

Jud, but we all know that Islam is such a peaceful religion, don't we?

Judah,

I believe that there is no need to inflame Islam and that Christian leaders at this high level have to tread extremely carefully. That is what I read into the Vatican document.

One of the last speeches that President Bush gave on this subject was quite different from his previous speeches. (I tried to find it but failed.) Anyway, gone was his usual statement "Islam is a religion of peace." He concentrated on the evil of the terrorists. He like the Vatican and Pope is between a rock and a hard place. These people can't attack the religion because of the Muslim backlash.

But the sad thing is that others, unaware of the real truth, may believe what is written on face value.

Yes, and the Muslims can say, "See the Vatican believes that we worship the same God too."

Muslim clergy must admit that the Qur'an does indeed incite violence and deal with the problem at source, in other words, with their own so-called holy book.

I have always said that Islam needs a "pope." They don't have anyone in authority to deal with this problem. No one speaks for Islam. It is some of the imams themselves who are preaching hate. Islam needs to be reformed and I don't know what it will take for the Muslims to get to the point that they will reform.

Some time ago I watched a video of a little 2-3 year old Muslim girl. She was on a Islamic talk show and was spouting that Jews were monkeys and pigs to the delight of her proud parents standing by. It made me sick. You can see all kinds of videos on the Net where imams preach hate and quote their holy book.

Question: In your discussions with Muslims have any mentioned the "gospel" of Barnabas?

Christian2 wrote:
Question: In your discussions with Muslims have any mentioned the "gospel" of Barnabas?

I have not yet had any discussions with Muslims, but just with other Christians who have shown mixed reactions to what I have told them.

I will put the rest of my post in an email to you.

But what is the "gospel" of Barnabas?

Judah,

But what is the "gospel" of Barnabas?

The first time I had heard of this book was when a Muslim mentioned it to me. So many Muslims believe that this is the "lost" gospel of Jesus and His true "gospel." The Muslims buy it like hot cakes. So I bought a copy.

I did a whole analysis on it using my copy and the analysis of others.

Muslims have been warned to stay away from it because not only does it contradict the NT, it also contradicts the Qur'an, but this warning does not seem to stop them. That is how desperate they are.

In the commentary of my copy is this statement: "The Gospel of Barnabas was accepted as a Canonical Gospel in the Churches of Alexandria till 325AD."

As Christians know it was the Epistle of Barnabas that almost made it into the Canon and the Epistle is an entirely different book. This statement is a flat out lie and whoever wrote the into for this book knows it. I think that they rely on the ignorance of Muslims to promote the book.

The bottom line is that it is a 15-16th century forgery. It is so full of inaccuracies it would make your head swim.

Christian2 wrote:
I have always said that Islam needs a "pope."

That's a tough one, because the fundamentalists would probably intimidate the more pacifist moderates.

ochotseat wrote:

Christian2 wrote:
I have always said that Islam needs a "pope."

That's a tough one, because the fundamentalists would probably intimidate the more pacifist moderates.

A "pope" wouldn't work for Islam. If the pope was too "moderate," then the fundamentalists would probably kill him. If the pope was a fundamentalist, the moderates wouldn't accept him. There can never be one person or one body of Muslims who would speak for all Muslims, not even on the subject of terrorism or the interpretation of the "kill the infidel" verses in the Qur'an. I find the whole situation hopeless. I had a devote Muslim tell me that Islam was in a mess and I think he is right.

In fairness, I don't think that all Christians would accept a "pope" speaking for all Christians on all subjects either, but I do believe we can speak with one voice on the subject of terrorism and killing in the name of YHVH and we need only to look at what Jesus said in the Scriptures.

Christian2 wrote: A "pope" wouldn't work for Islam.
.

So you're disavowing what you said earlier?

In fairness, I don't think that all Christians would accept a "pope" speaking for all Christians on all subjects either

Orthodox, Protestants, Messianic Jews, and liberal Catholics sometimes don't.

but I do believe we can speak with one voice on the subject of terrorism and killing in the name of YHVH and we need only to look at what Jesus said in the Scriptures.

Muslims don't consider Jesus as part of our Triune God. It seems that the only feasible solution is what we're trying to do now: go after the fundamentalist Muslims and regimes, monitor Muslims living in non-Muslim countries and deport whoever needs to be deported, support Israel as a bulwark in the Middle East, maintain an American and UN presence on the international scene, encourage the moderates to speak up on behalf of Islam, etc.

Hi ochotseat,

So you're disavowing what you said earlier?

I'm afraid that my suggestion was a bit of wishful thinking on my part but I do believe that we can't solve the Muslim terrorist situation without the help of the Muslim community. It is really their problem which has now become ours.

Muslims don't consider Jesus as part of our Triune God.

No they do not. They reject the whole idea of the incarnation. It is beneath the majesty of God to incarnate man.

It seems that the only feasible solution is what we're trying to do now: go after the fundamentalist Muslims and regimes, monitor Muslims living in non-Muslim countries and deport whoever needs to be deported, support Israel as a bulwark in the Middle East, maintain an American and UN presence on the international scene, encourage the moderates to speak up on behalf of Islam, etc.

Some progress has been made along these lines.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050803/D8BOGK9O1.html

And this:

Flow of Muslim Immigrants Strains the Reputation for Tolerance of a Small Italian Town

By Ian Fisher

CREMONA. After the bombs in London in July, the first offer from the new Muslim leadership here was to form posses to keep an eye on possible militants. This city, gentle and refined, the home of Stradivarius, declined.
Another idea that did not work was a possible service by both Muslims and Christians in the treasure of a cathedral here - which, prosecutors say, Muslim militants considered blowing up three years ago.

But Sadiq el-Hassan, a leader at Cremona's mosque, insisted that because the London bombings made future attacks in Europe a near certainty, something long overdue had to happen: Muslims, finally, needed to take a stand.

"Our mistake is that we were quiet," said Mr. Hassan, 40, a Tunisian who in dress and speech seems nearly Italian. "After all that happened after Sept. 11, we never came out and said, 'These things are bad.' But it's not too late."

It may not be too late, but Muslim leaders here worry that time is nonetheless running out on Italy's patience with them - and that worry has set off an unusual degree of self-criticism.

It has not happened much in Europe, but Mr. Hassan is now planning for the Muslims of Cremona to show publicly that they are as much against terrorism and violence as Italians are. In coming weeks, Muslims will march - in numbers, Mr. Hassan hopes - against extremism carried out in the name of Islam.

"If the million Muslims who live in Italy don't say anything, it means we are giving a green light to the terrorists," he said.

To optimists like Mayor Gian Carlo Corada, the march - initiated entirely by Muslims - could become a model for how the uneasy relationship between Muslim immigrants and Europeans can be redefined. Muslims, he said, could begin aligning themselves more clearly for values that are more European; Europeans, in turn, would be more open to true integration.

Already for more than a decade, Cremona, a quiet city of 70,000 in the Po Valley, famous still for violin making, has been an unlikely laboratory in Italy for relations with immigrants, nurturing both amity and extremism. And that history seems to show both the need for a new start to relations, and the difficulties of even the best-intentioned new beginnings.

The area's farms and factories - and the aging population of Italians, which has created a need for younger workers - have attracted a far higher percentage of immigrants here than to Italy as a whole.

According to the mayor, about 20 percent of people in this area are immigrants, many of them Romanians, Albanians and Sikhs, compared with less than 5 percent for the whole of Italy. North Africans, mostly Muslim, began coming in the 1980's, and there are now some 10,000 around Cremona, Mr. Hassan said.

The city's political and religious authorities have largely been supportive of immigrants, and many immigrants have worked to integrate themselves. City leaders praise an open dialogue with Muslims particularly. But given the rapidity of the change, it has been unsurprisingly imperfect on both sides, as a few recent hours of chat uncovered.

"Cremona is a racist city," said Tamsir Ousmane, 44, from Senegal, whose languages include Italian, French, Russian and English, and who runs a call center downtown. "If I want to rent a house, I can't. They won't rent to me. Unfortunately, it is like this. But we are here. We work here. And we pay taxes."

Maria Anselmi, 64, sitting on a park bench with five other older women, spoke of her fear of a terrorist attack, more acute after the bombings in London, and about her anxieties about immigrants in general. "In a while there will be more of them than of us," she said.

"They are going to squash us."

But relations with Muslims have been especially difficult. Nearly a dozen members of a former mosque were arrested in recent years, and two were convicted in July for belonging to an extremist cell plotting to carry out terror attacks. The plots included blowing up the cathedral here, which dates from 1107.

"The city found itself at the heart of a series of investigations that suggested it was a crossroads of international terrorism," said Andrea Gibelli, a legislator from the Northern League, a conservative party that has advocated a hard line on immigration. "It was very uncomfortable."

The League has been instrumental in closing several mosques. While it has not moved against the new and more moderate mosque here, where Mr. Hassan is vice president, Mr. Gibelli is skeptical - and not only because of the specific terrorist threats. Muslims, he said, have been reluctant to integrate. Mosques, he said, "are not places of prayer - they are for politics."

"They want to create areas where they can hide behind the protection of religious freedom, completely detached from the rest of the city," Mr. Gibelli said.

While the Northern League is on the far right, there seems to be a broader and growing opinion that Muslims in fact need to do more. One priest who is highly supportive of the Muslim community here conceded that in joint prayer groups against violence, perhaps only 10 percent of participants were Muslim. There has been talk for more than a year about a Muslim march against violence, but it has not yet happened.
Mr. Hassan concedes the criticism is valid. "Integration is difficult," he said, "because when you integrate, that is when you have identity crises. But we have to try."

And in this corner of Italy, which he says has been good to immigrants like him, he is hoping that the planned march makes a clear, page-turning statement to change what it means to be a Muslim in Europe. At the moment, he said, Italians "don't trust us anymore: they hear 'Muslim,' and they think 'terrorist.' "

The change, he said, "isn't a job, it's a responsibility, because if we do something wrong, it's really done, it's finished in Cremona."

And from Australia:

Lawrence Bartlett, Agence France Presse —


SYDNEY, 25 August 2005 — Muslims who want to live under Islamic Shariah law were told yesterday to get out of Australia as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks.

A day after a group of mainstream Muslim leaders pledged loyalty to Australia at a special meeting with Prime Minister John Howard, he and his ministers made it clear that extremists would face a crackdown.

Treasurer Peter Costello, seen as heir apparent to Howard, hinted that some radical clerics could be asked to leave the country if they did not accept that Australia was a secular state and its laws were made by parliament.

“If those are not your values, if you want a country which has Shariah law or a theocratic state, then Australia is not for you,” he said on national television.

“I'd be saying to clerics who are teaching that there are two laws governing people in Australia, one the Australian law and another the Islamic law, that that is false.

“If you can't agree with parliamentary law, independent courts, democracy, and would prefer Shariah law and have the opportunity to go to another country which practices it, perhaps, then, that's a better option,” Costello said.

Asked whether he meant radical clerics would be forced to leave, he said those with dual citizenship could possibly be asked move to the other country.

Education Minister Brendan Nelson later told reporters that Muslims who did not want to accept local values should “clear off”.

“Basically, people who don't want to be Australians, and they don't want to live by Australian values and understand them, well then they can basically clear off,” he said.

Muslim schools will have to denounce terrorism as part of an effort to stamp out homegrown extremism under measures announced after Howard's meeting with 14 Islamic leaders Tuesday.

The prime minister called the meeting in the wake of last month's London bombings by British-born Muslims, amid fears that Australia could be the target of a similar attack by disaffected members of its small Muslim community.

“The purpose of the meeting was to identify ways of preventing the emergence of any terrorist behavior in this country,” Howard told commercial radio yesterday.

“You won't change the minds of people who are hardened fanatics and hardened extremists. You have to identify them and take measures to ensure that they don't become a problem.” Asked if he was prepared to “get inside” mosques and schools to ensure there was no support for terrorism, Howard said: “Yes, to the extent necessary”.

Meanwhile, an Islamic youth organization that was not invited to Howard's Tuesday meeting said it would call an alternative conference — on Sept. 11 — for what it says is the 80 percent of Muslims who were not represented.

The Affinity Intercultural Foundation (AIF) told national radio it wants to try to change the date's association with Islamic violence, and to highlight how mainstream Muslims have become victims of prejudice and bias.

AIF director Mehmet Saral said Muslims were feeling more victimized than at any other time in their history of living in Australia.

Some 300,000 Muslims make up just 1.5 percent of Australia's population of 20 million.

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The situation in Israel with the Palestinians needs to be solved. How, I don't know. I think that Israel giving up the Gaza was a good idea, but I don't think that the Jews will ever give up Jerusalem.

Christian2 wrote: Some progress has been made along these lines.
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050803/D8BOGK9O1.html

The problem is that many people who immigrate to Western countries want to acculturate rather than assimilate. They come with the mindset that their new home is their fatherland.

I think that Israel giving up the Gaza was a good idea, but I don't think that the Jews will ever give up Jerusalem.

No one should have a monopoly on Jerusalem.

ochotseat,

No one should have a monopoly on Jerusalem.

I once suggested to a Muslim that Jerusalem be an International City, perhaps run by the UN and he said he thought Muslims could live with that.

I found a scripture where Jesus states if you do not beleive his teachings then the LORD god is not your father, satin is.
I stand corrected.
Muslims and jews may think they worship the same god, but they have listened to satin, they failed to listen to the words of christ. Therefore Abramham is not their father, god is not there father but Satin is.

John 8:31-47
He made it quite clear.
but what else did he have to say in the passage.

31To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

Disiples means Christians, if we are his, then we WILL hold to his teaching or we are not his.

Deborah wrote:I found a scripture where Jesus states if you do not beleive his teachings then the LORD god is not your father, satin is.
I stand corrected.
Muslims and jews may think they worship the same god, but they have listened to satin, they failed to listen to the words of christ. Therefore Abramham is not their father, god is not there father but Satin is.

John 8:31-47
He made it quite clear.
but what else did he have to say in the passage.

31To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

Disiples means Christians, if we are his, then we WILL hold to his teaching or we are not his.

Deborah,

All 3 monotheistic religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) are founded on belief in the God of Abraham.
I believe you inferred something like this in your earliest posts to this thread... that these 3 religions all came from "the same place".

Both Jews and Christians worship the same God, but Jews do not recognize the fuller revelation of God, that being His Son, Jesus.
The Jews still worship and believe in our God - it is not God who has changed in anyway from their holy scriptures (our Old Testament) for them to be worshipping some other deity, but that their beliefs concerning Him are incomplete.

Islam is something different again. Muhammad began with the Jewish scriptures and based his belief in one God on the same God of Abraham as both Jews and Christians believe in. This is where Islam began... with our same God!
Muhammad used the Arabic name Allah for God once he had expunged from it the various pantheistic attachments that name had in pre-Islamic times. Allah was the supreme god among many of the old Arabic gods.
It was a good start for Islam, but the revelations that Muhammad received and said were from God (now called Allah) were inconsistent with the rest of Jewish and Christian Scripture and could not have been from God. He claimed they were from Allah, and as time went on, those revelations became more and more inconsistent with what is known by Jews and Christians to be God, our Father and Creator.
Muhammad also distorted holy scripture, re-wrote parts of it, accused Jews of re-writing parts of it too, and so destroyed for Islam the foundation on which it was originally built.
Therefore we cannot say that our God and Allah, who developed from the distortions and false revelations, are the same... they simply are not.
But it is true to say that Islam, in the very beginning, started with the adoption from Jewish scriptures of the God of Abraham.

Muslims say that they believe in Allah, and ascribe to Allah many things that are also true of our God - all merciful, all powerful, creator of all, etc, etc. They get this from the early origins of Islam, from the God of Abraham.
But the Qur'an does not reveal our God to them... it reveals Allah, a false god, a violent and malevolent figure.

Jesus said... "No man comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6)

Jesus is the fullest revelation of God that we have this side of heaven.
Not only is He that, but He was also the sacrifical lamb to restore our flawed relationship with God. In order to have this restored relationship whereby we are justified and sanctified in the sight of God, and can relate to Him fully and completely, we must accept the sacrifice Jesus made for our sin. We must accept Him as having paid the price.

If Jews and Muslims (and anyone else for that matter) do not accept Jesus as that sacrifice, then they cannot have that restored relationship with God. Of course, God is merciful and just... He will judge who has accepted Jesus and who hasn't, and for what reason if not. But overall, it is only through Jesus, by God's grace and our faith, that we come to a restored relationship with God.

I hope that may have made it a little clearer.

Judah wrote:The site is back up again, and this is what was quoted me by an Anglo-Catholic Bishop. The Church is clearly the Roman Catholic Church.

3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom."

(You can read the entire document at http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_coun ... te_en.html)

You would surely think that those supposedly so well educated in Christianity would know much better than that, or do they have another agenda?

Yes the agenda is to promote for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom."

Listen to Deborah, don't think so much with your mind but use your heart.

It is your knowledge that those who do not beleive will suffer damnation, but let your message spread with love. There are those willing to listen, start with them.

BGoodForGoodSake wrote:Yes the agenda is to promote for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom."

Listen to Deborah, don't think so much with your mind but use your heart.

It is your knowledge that those who do not beleive will suffer damnation, but let your message spread with love. There are those willing to listen, start with them.

I listen and think with both my mind and my heart, not with one at the expense of the other.

I am writing here to a Christian forum, not speaking with Muslims (although there may be some who visit that I do not know about).
There is a lot of misinformation spread when people are not clear in their thinking about issues, and it is very important that Christians know the differences between Christianity and Islam.
Unclear thinking does not help anyone in their witness to others.

I have not written on the subject of how to witness to Muslims, but you are right that any witness of the Gospel must be spread with love.

In a previous post of mine (which I quote below) I express concern that the message in the Vatican II paper is open to misinterpretation because it is not well emphasized that Islam was founded on the God of Abraham which is the same God of Judaism and Christianity. That is what was actually meant in the message given to Muslims, rather than that Allah is the same God that we also worship... a misunderstanding that can be made if this is not read carefully and thoughtfully. You must use your mind, your powers of thinking, to understand that.

It is indeed a carefully worded document to avoid inflaming Islam and to help build bridges (the agenda) and as you will see, it was a rhetorical question that I had asked... I already had the answer, that being part of the original document ("to promote for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom") and of course those so well educated in Christianity would know much better than to confuse Allah with God. My (rhetorical) question was meant to highlight just that.

If you do not think with your mind, if your understanding is flawed by confusion or misinformation or lack of knowledge, you are likely to misinterpret the message. Thinking with the heart will not clarify that but simply colour it with subjectivity and further cloud the issue.

But spreading the Gospel is an activity that involves all heart, mind and soul plus much prayer as well.
I do not disagree with that.

Judah wrote:Christian2, thanks for such an excellent response.
I have noted those surahs for future reference.

I believe that there is no need to inflame Islam and that Christian leaders at this high level have to tread extremely carefully. That is what I read into the Vatican document.
But the sad thing is that others, unaware of the real truth, may believe what is written on face value. It appears on the surface to support the idea of Christians and Muslims worshipping the same God, and those who have not thought very deeply about the issue may easily see this as the stance of the Church when indeed, it is truly something else.
That was my point in mentioning (I meant it rhetorically) "another agenda".

It is very important that Christians work with Muslims to reduce the terrorism and this aggressive thrust of evil.
But I do keep coming back to a basic first principle, as I see it, which I have mentioned before by way of analogy with alcoholism... that the problem must stop being denied in order for real change to take place. Muslim clergy must admit that the Qur'an does indeed incite violence and deal with the problem at source, in other words, with their own so-called holy book.

That article in response to the Vatican paper was very helpful.
And thanks also for the link to the article analyzing the (false) claim that Muhammad is the Comforter.

(Bold emphasis added to above quote for the purposes of this post.)

Deborah,

There is no god besides the Christian God, the triune God, the God of the Bible. The God of Judaism is the Devil (John 8:44). One cannot believe in Moses if he rejects Christ (John 5:46).

Christianity worships the true God. All others worship Satan (Yes, I know it's divisive, but true).