"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands." (Psalm 19:1)
https://discussions.godandscience.org/
Fortigurn wrote:Do I detect an inclination towards Universalism?
What BW has written, and Byblos has agreed to, is the number one argument I'm presented with by Universalists - 'It would not be just for God to destroy the wicked or grant them a place without God, it would not be in accord with perfect justice'.Byblos wrote:B.W. wrote:Would it be just for God to blast the wicked off into non-existence or grant them a place they like, a place without God — banished from God. Would this be in accord with perfect Justice?
Interesting????
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Indeed.
B. W. wrote: Yes, this does pose an interesting beginning — How sin came into being through the serpent and why God allowed this to happen. I do have scriptures as to why but choose to hold these back for the time being. Could it be that God's perfect Justice permits his creatures of renown to have an ability to reason and think own their own so that God is not the author of sin?
Byblos wrote:Yes, I can see it that way. Sin is the direct consequence of free will. Without the will to sin, there can be no will to choose God. Without the will to choose or reject God, there can be no judgment. They could all be interrelated.
B.W. wrote:Could it be, that this justice also will not deny even the most wicked the right to exist? Could God give life as a gift and leave the gift up to the recipient on how they chose to use this gift?
Response: Yes, indeed possible! From the use of this gift — God can then rightly judge, sentence, convict, absolve, all in accordance to the full meaning of His righteousness and His Justice. The sin would be the creatures own — not His. God would be inclined to provide a place — stage — to reveal what was truly known to be in the these creatures hearts and also make a place to confine till He brings about His Goal — The New Heavens and Earth.Byblos wrote: Neat, and very possible.
B.W. wrote:Would it be just for God to blast the wicked off into non-existence or grant them a place they like, a place without God — banished from God. Would this be in accord with perfect Justice? Interesting????
Response: Yes, the absolute Fairness and Mercy of God fully exposed!!Byblos wrote:Indeed.
B.W. wrote:Response: Yes, indeed possible! From the use of this gift — God can then rightly judge, sentence, convict, absolve, all in accordance to the full meaning of His righteousness and His Justice. The sin would be the creatures own — not His. God would be inclined to provide a place — stage — to reveal what was truly known to be in the these creatures hearts and also make a place to confine till He brings about His Goal — The New Heavens and Earth.
Response - let's stick with exploring original sin - sorry for the rabbit trail.Cook wrote: It seems we've already started to encroach into aspects of culminating discussion about hell and punishment (and whether hell is relevant today). From my own perspective, origin and nature of sin is not satisfactorily resolved yet, and I'm more than willing to still explore it, even with discussion interest in justice and God's judgments increasing.
Response: Please let me clarify what I mean by confinement. I chose that term based on exploring the subject of original sin in an unobtrusive way to avoid going back and exploring torment. Yes, Hell is a place of Torment. The term Confinement means to incarcerate and those in Hell are confined to torments as you so state.Cook wrote: B.W., I like much of your final reasoning in these posts. At the very end you throw in a difficulty for me, that Hell is best seen as a place of confinement. Perhaps it depends on how you visualize Hell, but is not the traditional view of Hell that it is a place of torment. Even if you are only confined there, the torment is present, so this is de facto punishment. But people have various views on Hell, so maybe you view it as separation from God, in accordance with "God's perfect Justice and Mercy." If you think that it is torment then we're back to the beginning of how torment is in any way shape or form in accordance with eternal justice and mercy. I have difficulty accepting that it is.
Your post earlier about having Bible verses but not wanting to lay them out reminded me of when Jesus was once asked a question, but he didn't immediately quote this or that, instead he replied, "How do you read scripture?" Gave people pause to use their own brains for a second, which is always a good exercise in my book! And I'm glad people here are likewise of that open mindset for offering hypotheses and testing these sorts of questions. A long post, hopefully ir retains some sense.What B.W. wrote was a question and what I agreed to was that it was interesting.Fortigurn wrote:What BW has written, and Byblos has agreed to, is the number one argument I'm presented with by Universalists - 'It would not be just for God to destroy the wicked or grant them a place without God, it would not be in accord with perfect justice'.Byblos wrote:B.W. wrote:Would it be just for God to blast the wicked off into non-existence or grant them a place they like, a place without God — banished from God. Would this be in accord with perfect Justice?
Interesting????
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Indeed.
I'll try to answer this as best as I can. I see within kids, a bent toward asserting their rights, and a wanting things their way, at other's expense. Sure this is immaturity, and we as parents can correct much of this. Since this is so, I kind of view this life, in the here and now, as our Heavenly Father disciplining us when we need it. The bible says the same thing about disciplining His Children He loves — which means us who love God. Again, my opinion, it seems to me that God wants to prepare us for the life to come and here on this planet, it seems we are learning what this is.Cook wrote: At this point, may I return to a post I posed to you B.W. a few pages back that got lost, ask again for your opinions. This is the post where I listed out different types of immaturity. My attempt here is to get at what Locker is asking, "could original sin be defined." We know for a fact that people when they are born are immature in dimensions of physicality and character. When we talk about original sin, "The Fall", we talk about a quality of sinfulness in my opinion which is beyond immaturity, which is only correctible by redemption. We talk in terms of a debt that must be repaid and cannot be forgiven or repaid by our own efforts. God being a Father and having infinite parental insight into immaturity would be able to see what his children are growing toward, and I don't see Hell -- eternal debt punishment -- as the answer for that aspect of wrong choices. Yes, Hell as ultimate judgment for those fully identified with sin, but I see punishment for correction purposes as every likelihood for immaturity (which would not be from Hell but everyday you-reap-what-you-sow wisdom growth in the school of hard knocks). And so what part of children's behavior, or even adult behavior, is beyond the bounds of immaturity. Does that point the way toward grasping what is the debt of unforgivable original sin. I hypothesize that fathers and mothers are able to have better insights into this since they have kids of their own that they are able to see as immature or evil.
Yes - looking at the word meanings and how they apply would be most helpful. Anyone up to it? If not, give me sometime to check this part out.Locker wrote:I am back, troops!
Great discussions and deep ones too! Let's see what we have so far, Cook brought up a good point about tracing original sin back to the devil and B. W. had some deep answers that would suggest how this happened. After reading the short comments and going back over my bible — wow — makes sense! Also, I see no hint at universalism from anyones response, just good food for thought.
If I am reading correctly, sin originated with the serpent, and the serpent sinned on its own due to God's designing — free will because that places the responsibility for sin on those that sin and not God. Well, that is deep and can answer much. If anyone wants to add to this — please do and keep it going as I am learning much comparing it as I read in my bible.
Next, could original sin be defined? Can it? So far we can call it 'immaturity', 'moral failure', etc…
What was it that Adam and Eve did that caused this sin to spread? They rebelled, they sought knowledge of good and evil, was it an immature grasp to live without God? Do we have that same motive in today's world?
Can someone post the Hebrew definitions for the words: tree, knowledge, good, and evil that is used in the Genesis accounts (Chapter 2 and 3). Also, the phrase, your eyes will be opened — what does that mean and suggest? Maybe we can locate an answer in these words and phrases that may help us.
Interesting point: this gives me an idea - unforgivable and forgivable original sin could be what Jesus is alluding too in Mark 7:20-23 and Paul write about in Ephesians 2:3 and Romans 7:18. Maybe original has to do with the heart.B. W. wrote:Again, my opinion, unforgivable original sin, would be rejecting God at all cost and forgivable original sin comes when we confess, owe up to, and take responsibility for our original sin — thus learn from it not to repeat it. The only way to do this is by the grace of God and relying on His plan for our salvation: Like when a child admits wrong doing without excuses verses another who makes excuses and passes the blame. What is original sin? It maybe more than just immaturity but that is the reason for this topic — to explore it. -
Response: Yes, you can say that is what I mean. I do think original sin has something to do with the heart.Locker wrote: Interesting point: this gives me an idea - unforgivable and forgivable original sin could be what Jesus is alluding too in Mark 7:20-23 and Paul write about in Ephesians 2:3 and Romans 7:18. Maybe original has to do with the heart.
I do know that the Hebrew word used for heart means the center and seat of the affections, will, reason, where the issues of life come forth – hence the throne room of the soul. Maybe original sin began there – in the heart and spread to us all???
This sin would be unforgivable if the heart remains hard and forgivable if it is changed and given new direction. Is that what you mean B. W?
Response: Interesting points. However, let me look into the Hebrew definitions used in Genesis 1-3 and see if anything points at the heart. Someone else may know more about the subject of the Heart than I do and may have a better answer or idea...Locker wrote: Maybe the original sin of Adam and Eve and even the serpent began in the heart. If that is the case – how did God design the heart and still be innocent from creating this sin from its design? I know God is innocent – but the design of the heart seemed to become corrupt somewhere along the line. Maybe that is the original sin???
I agree with your viewpoint here. Almost entirely at least. From Jesus' parable of the prodigal son and other teachings I don't limit "His children He loves" to only "us who love God". Fatherly love not having this quid pro quo quality in my view.B.W. wrote:I'll try to answer this as best as I can. I see within kids, a bent toward asserting their rights, and a wanting things their way, at other's expense. Sure this is immaturity, and we as parents can correct much of this. Since this is so, I kind of view this life, in the here and now, as our Heavenly Father disciplining us when we need it. The bible says the same thing about disciplining His Children He loves — which means us who love God. Again, my opinion, it seems to me that God wants to prepare us for the life to come and here on this planet, it seems we are learning what this is.
Again I mostly agree, with slightly different shadings of view. The word "original" almost seems optional in your first sentence, such that it could as easily read, "Again, my opinion, unforgivable sin would be rejecting God at all cost and forgivable sin comes when we confess, owe up to, and take responsibility for our sin — thus learn from it not to repeat it. " If that sentence reads true to you, as it does for me, then the slippery distinction of what is "original sin" gets away again unfortunately.B.W. wrote:Again, my opinion, unforgivable original sin, would be rejecting God at all cost and forgivable original sin comes when we confess, owe up to, and take responsibility for our original sin — thus learn from it not to repeat it. The only way to do this is by the grace of God and relying on His plan for our salvation: Like when a child admits wrong doing without excuses verses another who makes excuses and passes the blame.
No, not at all. I'm saying that since God is a Father to us, being a parent perhaps helps in the ability to see as God sees, especially in terms of realistic judgment and forgiveness. "The wages of sin is death." Well the wages of a kid stealing a piece of candy from a store is certainly not a death sentence, much less death dealt from a loving parent. What is the type of sinfulness that brings about those wages? B.W. seems to say that it is by becoming "irredeemably corrupted" that people send themselves to such judgment. I would agree with this.Locker wrote:As for children — they do grow up and time comes when parents must let them go. When that happens, our kids are responsible for their own actions and deeds, not the parents. Cook — are you suggesting that parents are responsible for their adult children's actions and deeds?
I'll bring up something B.W. said a few posts ago: "Again, my opinion, it seems to me that God wants to prepare us for the life to come and here on this planet, it seems we are learning." Perhaps God in His wisdom simply is not depriving us of learning, when he allows for the capacity of sin, giving creatures like us free will even though we seem so prone toward choosing wrongly.Locker wrote:Maybe the original sin of Adam and Eve and even the serpent began in the heart. If that is the case — how did God design the heart and still be innocent from creating this sin from its design? I know God is innocent — but the design of the heart seemed to become corrupt somewhere along the line. Maybe that is the original sin???