Evidence for God from Science

Gregory Boyd's commentary on specific passages:

Acts 4:27—28

The Christians in Jerusalem proclaim to the Lord, “...both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against our holy servant Jesus... to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.”

This passage tells us that Herod, Pilot, the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel carried out God's predestined plan, not that they were individually predestined to carry out God's plan. That Jesus was going to be killed was settled ahead of time: who would kill him was not.

LowlyOne wrote:Gregory Boyd's commentary on specific passages:

Acts 4:27—28

The Christians in Jerusalem proclaim to the Lord, “...both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against our holy servant Jesus... to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.”

This passage tells us that Herod, Pilot, the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel carried out God's predestined plan, not that they were individually predestined to carry out God's plan. That Jesus was going to be killed was settled ahead of time: who would kill him was not.

So God left his entire plan of Redemption up to man's free will? Aren't we fortunate that Herod, Pilate, Judas, The Pharisees, and the Romans chose to perform their duties. However, Scripture tells us that they were "disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed". (2 Peter 2:8). And the verse above plainly tells us that they were "to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place." Pretty clear to me. Jude tells us that "...certain men ...long ago were marked out for this condemnation" (Jude 1:4). If God predestines who will be saved (and He does as plainly taught in the Scriptures), then He also predestines who will be damned, if, by nothing else, not predestining them to be saved.

The Bible Doctrine of Predestination is not really a debatable doctrine. It is plainly stated throughout the scriptures. The problem isn't that it is hard to understand. The problem is that rebellious man doesn't like it as plainly taught, so they try to explain it away as best as they can.

FYI:

Sorry guys for the delay, as soon as things wind down a bit for me, I'll jump back in the discussion.

Too much going on at work at the moment....

I'll catch up and respond more Monday....

puritan lad wrote:

LowlyOne wrote:Gregory Boyd's commentary on specific passages:

Acts 4:27—28

The Christians in Jerusalem proclaim to the Lord, “...both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against our holy servant Jesus... to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.”

This passage tells us that Herod, Pilot, the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel carried out God's predestined plan, not that they were individually predestined to carry out God's plan. That Jesus was going to be killed was settled ahead of time: who would kill him was not.

So God left his entire plan of Redemption up to man's free will?

No, his plan of redemption is precisely to let us choose him or not. Without choice, there is no judgment.

puritan lad wrote:Aren't we fortunate that Herod, Pilate, Judas, The Pharisees, and the Romans chose to perform their duties. However, Scripture tells us that they were "disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed". (2 Peter 2:8). And the verse above plainly tells us that they were "to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place." Pretty clear to me.

This is a testament to God's omniscience and to the fulfillment of scriptures, not to the predestination of specified events, times, and places.

puritan lad wrote: Jude tells us that "...certain men ...long ago were marked out for this condemnation" (Jude 1:4). If God predestines who will be saved (and He does as plainly taught in the Scriptures), then He also predestines who will be damned, if, by nothing else, not predestining them to be saved.

Yet another testament to God's omniscience in using certain men to accomplish his will. They were not chosen to be condemned then used. They were used because they chose to be condemned. Do you see the difference?

puritan lad wrote:The Bible Doctrine of Predestination is not really a debatable doctrine. It is plainly stated throughout the scriptures.

Well, it certainly begs the question.

puritan lad wrote: The problem isn't that it is hard to understand. The problem is that rebellious man doesn't like it as plainly taught, so they try to explain it away as best as they can.

I don't like it because I disagree with it. I disagree with it because, with my understanding of scripture (and I will freely admit it is limited) I do not believe it is biblical.

God Bless,

Byblos.

LowlyOne wrote:Gregory Boyd's commentary on specific passages:

Proverbs 16:4

“The Lord has made everything for its purpose,
even the wicked for the day of trouble.”

Compatiblists often cite this verse to support the conclusion that some people are created wicked for the expressed purpose of being sent to hell. Since Scripture teaches that God is love (1 John 4:8, 16), that God loves all people (John 3:16) and thus does not willing afflict anyone (Lam. 3:33) or will their damnation (Ezek. 18:30—32; 33:11; 1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9), we should seek for a different interpretation.

An alternative interpretation is not difficult to find. Proverbs 16:4 is using the language of moral order. God set up creation such that good is (eventually) rewarded and evil (eventually) punished. In this sense the “purpose” for the wicked is found in the “day of trouble” that shall come upon them. It's significant to note that the verb translated in the NRSV as “made” (pâ'al) can be translated as “works out” (as in the NIV), an observation that confirms our interpretation. God steers the wickedness of agents so that their end eventually fits the moral order of creation. Moreover, the word translated as “purpose” (ma' neh) can be translated as “answer.”*

The meaning of the passage, then, is that God works things out so that the end of the wicked “answers” their wickedness. They eventually reap what they sow. We thus need not entertain the gruesome prospect of God creating people for the expressed purpose of having them suffer endlessly.

Note

* See D. Clines, “Predestination in the Old Testament,” in Grace Unlimited, ed. C. Pinnock (Minneapolis, MN: Bethany House, 1975), 122.

Yes, this lines up with Isaiah 45:7-13 context as well as what Psalms 9:15-20 [verse16] reveals.

God uses the wicked for his purposes as well as the wicked “answering” to their own wickedness. The heart of wickedness is control, to rule like god, to be in charge. When the wicked become instruments of God, God shows all, who is really in charge. The wicked are the ones that quarrel with God over control. [note - Ezekiel 28:17]

They want to be the potter and command the works of God. Instead it is they that are being used by God and made a public spectacle out of. This the bible teaches in abundance.

The wicked justify their works by saying God made me thus — a king, ruler, important, killer, terrorist, etc… Hence, they quarrel with God over control; God has the last laugh, He is in charge and can make them eat grass if He so wishes. That is what the potter and clay parable reveals.

Next point, remember, we are all vessels of wrath. Jeremiah 18:5-10 explains the potter and clay story. They same lump of clay. Clay that became unrighteous before God because of sin, God can shape based on what?

Verse 8 tells us if they repent. How can they repent if they are not told too i.e. notified, called out too? How beautiful are the feet of them that bring good news. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. It comes back to God's call based on his deep foreknowing that predestines. God is engaging something with humanity and demands a response. Humans were designed by God to be able to respond. If not, then faith does not come by hearing but rather by selective election.

Now back too Proverbs 16:2-5. A person's motives are weighed by the Lord — the Lord detest the proud of heart, God declares they will not go unpunished. Therefore, God fashions them for a day of doom, punishment. Why, they quarrel with God and use the, 'you made me do it' argument to justify their crimes, actions, and deeds. God has the last laugh as He is in charge, not they. The wicked are ensnared by the works of their own hands and are held accountable.

The reason why there is a debate is that we have strayed away from looking at the author and finisher of out faith; Jesus Christ. We fail to look at God and seek him. We do not spend time gazing upon God and seeking Him to understand His Nature and Character — who He is. God desires to make Himself known, He wants us to seek Him and ask questions.

It is here, you'll discover the answer of the debate. The correct answer will point directly to the author and finisher of our faith; Jesus Christ — our God and savior, revealing who He is. Looking at who He is, answers the debate. Stray from this vantage point — you'll stagnate on certain truths that can create strife and every evil work. Look upon the Lord, you'll find rest and peace that comes from above.

When I return, I'll pick up and show you how God's Nature and Character answers the debate. For now, I hope you can see how Proverbs 16: 4 is oft misquoted and misunderstood. Truly, what a man sows, that he also will reap.
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B.W.

No real beef concerning your post until here

Verse 8 tells us if they repent. How can they repent if they are not told too i.e. notified, called out too? How beautiful are the feet of them that bring good news. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. It comes back to God's call based on his deep foreknowing that predestines. God is engaging something with humanity and demands a response. Humans were designed by God to be able to respond. If not, then faith does not come by hearing but rather by selective election.

First, my challenge to any “free-willer” is to show me one single scripture that mentions a “foreknowledge” of “choice” or “actions” (which you seem to imply). The Word “foreknowledge” in the Bible “always” refers to people, never to actions. It is true that God foreknew our choices, because He predestined them. (That word “protasso” is all over the Bible, as well as words such as elect, chosen, appointed, determined, etc). God is absolutely sovereign in all things, and does not bow down to our idol of free will. As Calvin himself accurately put it, "not an unconcerned sitting of God in heaven, where He only observes what's done in the world; but an all-active and all-concerned seatedness on His throne above, where He governs the world He has made, Himself."

Philippians 2:13
"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure."

For some reasons, modern Christians just have to have that "free will" ability to be saved, though the Bible clearly states the opposite time and again.

Second, What about those who hear (such as the Pharisees, or Pharoah) and never have faith? How would you explain Jesus own words concerning the Pharisees, such as…

“you do not believe, because you are not my sheep (not vice versa)” — John 10:28

“And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.” — Matthew 13:10-11

He then goes on to quote Isaiah 6:10

“Make the heart of this people dull, and their ears heavy, and blind their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed."

The passage is clear. Jesus purposely hid the things of the kingdom of God from the Pharisees, so that they would not be saved. Why? Because they were not His sheep.

What about Isaiah 55:11?

“so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.”

What if someone hears the Word, rejects it, and ends up in Hell? Is the above scripture still true? Does the Word still accomplish that for which He sent it? Yes. God's purpose for raising up Pharoah was to destroy him, so that He could show His power in delivering His people through great judgments.

As I pointed out in another thread, man cannot blame God for his sins, because he does so willingly. All God has to do is withhold saving grace, for “He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills, he hardens”.

The reason one is saved is because God enables that person to believe. This He does not do for everyone.

Man cannot use his “free will” to be saved. This is clear from a number of passages (John 1:13, John 6:65, Romans 9:16, 1 Cor. 2:14, etc.)

It is God who has “free will”, not man.

Also, people keep referring to passages such as 2 Peter 3:9 and the like in order to counter "or reinterpret" Proverbs 16:4. I've already dealt with them numerous times. They were written to a specific audience as an encouragement, not to illustrate a universal election.

As Gregory Boyd said "Proverbs 16:4 is using the language of moral order. God set up creation such that good is (eventually) rewarded and evil (eventually) punished. In this sense the “purpose” for the wicked is found in the “day of trouble” that shall come upon them. It's significant to note that the verb translated in the NRSV as “made” (pâ'al) can be translated as “works out” (as in the NIV), an observation that confirms our interpretation. God steers the wickedness of agents so that their end eventually fits the moral order of creation. Moreover, the word translated as “purpose” (ma' neh) can be translated as “answer.”*

The meaning of the passage, then, is that God works things out so that the end of the wicked “answers” their wickedness. They eventually reap what they sow. We thus need not entertain the gruesome prospect of God creating people for the expressed purpose of having them suffer endlessly.

Puritan Lad, show how this is incorrect. I doubt that you can unless you appeal to another scripture.

John 10:26 says, “But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep.” So puritan Lad, you seem to think and say that that Jesus didn't say, “You are not my sheep because you do not believe,” but rather, “You do not believe because you are not of My sheep.” Thus, you say the reason these particular people didn't believe is because God didn't sovereignly choose them first, thus determining that they would be among His sheep, right?. “Being a sheep is something that God decides for us before we believe,” you tell us.

Here, you make the error of trying to derive an order in the process of salvation from a verse that is metaphorical and merely meant to be descriptive. If a shepherd says about certain sheep that are grazing among his own flock, “These ones are not white, because they are not of my sheep,” does that prove that the wool of his sheep was black before he obtained them, and then became white after they became his sheep? Is the shepherd declaring that the sole reason that his sheep have white wool is because they are his sheep? No, the only real conclusion one can draw from such a statement is that the shepherd only has sheep with white wool in his flock. Likewise, Jesus was simply describing His true sheep among the bigger “flock.” His sheep believe. Those who are not of His flock don't believe. He was not establishing an order in the process of salvation.

How come you never quote the two verses that follow John 10:26 in order to be certain your interpretation fits the context? There we continue reading, “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand” (John 10:27-28 ).

Here Jesus continues to describe His relationship with His sheep. He mentions things that they do and things that He does for them. Not only do they believe in Him, but they also hear his voice (because they are near and attentive), and they follow Him (because they have obediently submitted to Him). True Christians believe in, listen to, and obey Jesus. Jesus, like any good shepherd, knows which sheep are His. He gives them eternal life, promises that they won't perish, and also guarantees that they won't be stolen. Clearly we see this is a two-sided relationship, both sides having responsibility.

How would we fare if we used your (Puritan Lad) means of interpreting John 10:26 to interpret Jesus' words regarding a just-converted prostitute, recorded in Luke 7:47?:

“For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for [because] she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little."

Was Jesus teaching that the reason this prositute's many sins were forgiven was because she first, prior to being forgiven, "loved much"? Or was Jesus simply describing people who have been forgiven much, identifying them as being people who love God much? The answer is obvious. Thus you, should be extremely careful in deriving an order of the process of salvation from John 10:26, grasping for a cause and effect relationship in a statement that was only meant to describe true believers.

Show where this is wrong and incorrect, without appealing to other passages for help, Puritan Lad.

Jude 1:4 "For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ."

There is no suggestion in this text whatsoever that these people were predetermined to be ungodly people who turn the grace of God into licentiousness, and to be people who deny Jesus. The The words (hoi palai progegrammenoi) simply show the fact that the evil careers/lifestyles and just condemnation of such men were foretold by Enoch (vs. 14) and others of old. It is entirely possible that God can exhaustively foreknow their choices without actually determining them just like, meaning it is entirely possible that God's foreknowedge of the future alone does not determine it anymore than our knowledge of the past alone determines it.

Matt 24:11 (Jesus said) Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.

Acts 20:29 (Paul said) For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock.

2 Pet 2:1 (Peter said) But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.

In each of the four passages above, we see a prediction of false leaders, yet there is no suggestion in any of these that they were predetermined to be false leaders, nor is there any hint that they were predetermined to do what it says they will do. It's the same with Jude 4. God is amazingly full of justice. Scripture says that. “Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly?”(Gen. 18:25). He is the Rock, His work is perfect; For all His ways are justice, A God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He. (Deu. 32:4) Does God subvert judgment? Or does the Almighty pervert justice? (Job 8:3) Surely God will never do wickedly, Nor will the Almighty pervert justice. (Job 34:12) I proclaim that God loves justice (and righteousness) so much that they are the foundation of His very throne. (Ps 97:2) With these Scriptures painting a very beautiful picture of God and His relationship with Justice, I have a question for you Puritan Lad. How will God judge the world in justice if unconditional election to eternal damnation is true? When He says to the goats on His left, “Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; you know, the ones that were predetermined to be the kind of people and do the kinds of things mentioned in Matt. 24:11, Acts 20:29, 2 Peter 2:1, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Jude 4; might they not rightly say, “But we could not help but to be these kinds of people, nor could we help but do these kinds of things, because You predetermined that we would be totally depraved, not among the elect, these kinds of people, who were predetermined to do these kinds of things, and You never did bestow upon us Your irresistible grace! We never had a chance to be saved, because our damnation You predestined before we were born! How can you righteously condemn us?” Wouldn't their objection be a noble and righteous objection?

Will God condemn them for what it was impossible for them not to do? Will He punish them everlastingly for not escaping what they could not escape? He might as justly punish people because their hearts beat within them! So the problems people have with Calvinists and their doctrines, is that they and their teachings nullify God's justice by elevating His sovereignty to unbiblical proportions. In conclusion, The Bible Doctrine of Predestination is not really a debatable doctrine. It is plainly stated throughout the scriptures. But the Calvinist doctrine of Predestination is another story. The problem isn't that it is hard to understand. Nor does the problem have anything to do with rebellious men not liking what is plainly taught. The problem is with the picture of God's character and ways painted by Calvinists, because it doesn't line up with the Scripture's teaching of God, His beautiful Character, and Sacred Ways.

Scripture Meditations:
Ps 89:14 - Righteousness and justice are the foundation of Your throne; Mercy and truth go before Your face.

1 Peter 2:7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, "The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone," 8 and "A stone of stumbling And a rock of offense." They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.

Were they appointed to choose to not believe, or were they appointed to stumble, as a punishment and consequence of choosing to not believe? You (Puritan Lad) seem to think the former, that they were appointed by God's choice and plan of election, to choose to not believe. Grammatically, the passage may be contructed to present either one. The matter of this hinges on the reference given for the phrase "to which also they were appointed". Was the appointing to disobedience, or to both stumbling and disobedience, or to stumbling as the consequence of disobedience? A.T Robertson says: Toi Logoi can be construed with apeithountes (stumble, being disobedient to the word). Whereunto also they were appointed (eis ho kai etethesan). First aorist passive indicative of tihemi. A.T. Robertson's conclusion from his exegesis of the greek is that "their disobedience is not ordained, but the penalty of their disobedience is. They rebelled against God and paid the penalty".

Steve Gregg says "it is more in keeping with the declarations of scripture to say that they chose their own ways, whereas God chose their punishments (in this case, stumbling). See Isaiah 66:3-4— "Just as they have chosen their own ways...so will I choose their delusions." And I agree. 2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this reason, (because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved) God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. Here we see that these people here chose to not receive the love of truth, that they might be saved, so God chose their punishment. In this case, their punishment was strong delusion. They wanted to believe lies, and were actively rebelling against God by resisting to recieve the truth, so God punished them by given them what they wanted.

Gregory Boyd in his commentary on specific passages, says:
This passage is sometimes cited as evidence that the delusions that unbelievers embrace are as much a part of God's sovereign will as believers' enlightenment. Yet, compatiblists insist, this occurs in such a way that unbelievers are responsible for their delusions though believers have only God to thank for their enlightenment. There is a less paradoxical (contradictory?) interpretation of this passage available to us.

First, we should note that the passage says that God “sends...powerful delusions...so that all who have not believed...will be condemned” (emphasis added). The delusions God sends doesn't explain why unbelievers don't believe. It only explains how God responds to their unbelief. He condemns it.

Second, it is not too difficult to surmise how God might “send powerful delusions” in response to unbelief without directly attributing deception to God. We saw earlier (Judg. 9:23; 2 Sam. 24:1, 1 Chron. 21:1) that sometimes the intentions of evil spirits fit in with God's intention to judge people. There is a certain poetic justice in letting deceiving spirits delude people who have already demonstrated that they want to believe lies. This conception may lie behind Paul's word to the Thessalonians.

Another example of God's actions are found in Jesus' words:
Matthew 7:24 "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall."

And so as far as 1 Peter 2:8 goes, I myself wouldn't use this passage to show pre-destination of the reprobate to hell any more than I would in the saying of Jesus and the wise man and foolish man. One responded by hearing Jesus sayings and done them, therefore was wise. The other hears Jesus sayings and does not do them, and is considered foolish. To say that God pre-destined those described in 1 Peter 2:8 to disobey, is also like saying those in Matthew 7 were pre-destined to not do what the heard Jesus teaching to do, and then calling them foolish for something they were predetermined to do. So what we have, is, those in 1 Peter are continuiously disobeying God, and on that path they are destined to stumble. God doesn't ordain their choice, but their punishment--stumbling.

A Discourse On God's Nature and Character which reveals His will concerning Election's Foreknowledge, Predestination, Calling, Justification, and Glorification as Romans 8:29-30 and 1 Peter 1:2, and Ephesians 1:3-22 and 1 Corinthians 2:7-10 reveals.

Now let me start where I left off from last post...

Background - knowing who God is you can find the correct answer to the debate under discussion. We need to back up and explore God's nature and character and why He bothered to create anything at all. Let's jump in...

God doesn't need angels, creation, or humanity. He is completely self sufficient and needs no one. But yet He created! Why? We may, in this mortal life, never fully understand why God chose to create but thank God He did or we would not be.

The bible grants clues and glimpses into why He created. If you are wise enough to put the pieces together, you'll gain a brief glimpse of God's eternal Glory! God is a God of the living is a statement Jesus used to reveal God the Father. You can say correctly that God creates life in order to be true to Himself, true to who He is, true to His nature, and thus true to His will.

What does the bible reveal about God's character and nature? First, God cannot deny Himself; 2 Timothy 2:11-13. He is true to His word and His Gifts He gives. God is true to Himself. This is a snapshot of insight into why God created. Summed up, God created to simply be true to Himself, true to be who He is, be true to His nature, and character which reveals His will, plans, purposes.

Let's look at more of the divine snapshot the Bible gives of God.

The bible further reveals God's Nature and Character: God is sovereign, eternal, omnipotent, Holy — Isaiah 46:9-10, Psalm 90:2, Revelations 19:6, 1 Peter 1:15; God is absolutely wise, has total understanding, and is supremely intelligent — Proverbs 3:19; God is good, merciful, gracious, and desires to make His ways known to us - Psalms 103:7- 22. God cannot create sin, God does not lie, etc. The list goes on and I suggest that you also study the Names of God used in the bible to gain more insight about His Character.

God offers Gifts and these Gifts are without recall — Romans 11:29; God is fair, equitable — Psalm 98:9, Malachi 2:6. God as to His nature is Love, 1 John 4:16. God is Righteous and exercises perfect circumspect Justice — Psalm 119:137, Isaiah 11:4. God is all knowing - Psalm 139:2-24, Isaiah 41:4, Isaiah 40:28-31. God can change His mind — Genesis 6:5-8, Jeremiah 18:8. God can choose - Isaiah 41:8-10.

Remember: His judgments are equitable, just and right regarding how he chooses and thus not understanding how these work leads to an error in truth about God [this is what we will be looking at soon enough but for now, we will need to back up and ponder God before proceeding]

God created in order to demonstrate that He is all these things; How can God verify He 'loves' if none exist to love? How can God be Righteous, Just, Merciful, if there were none to demonstrate this too? How can God prove He is equitable, fair, and exercises justice if none exist for this purpose? God cannot deny Himself. To Himself he remains true. No wonder the Heavenly Angels shout “Glory to God, God Most High so worthy to praised! We exist for God! Glory Be! Amen and Amen!

Luke 20:38, “God is a God of the living and all live to Him,” and again in Revelations 4:11, “All things were created for thy pleasure, purpose, will —they exist.” Can you see the snapshot?

If you do not understand these points about God, you can get the wrong picture about God and end up staining God's nature, character, and will without fully realizing that you have.

That is what the debate of predestination has clearly fostered: confusion and discord. Is this from God or another source? If the answer you have does not honor God as to all that He is, as well as line up with who He is, you'll end up not honoring God but rather honor one man's idea over another at the determent of all.

This is not to say we cannot honor what men teach. Without such instruction, we may never learn. However, does what man teach line up with God's nature and character in such a manner that it poses no contradictions to God's very nature and character revealed throughout the entire bible? Herein is how to find the correct answer. It is God's good pleasure to give you the kingdom, and for you and I too seek Him — Proverbs 2:1-9.

Let's continue: can the doctrine you and I hold concerning predestination, election, God's choosing, measure up to the standards of God Himself without any contradictions and contorted scripture weaving?

One side of the debate states that God is sovereign and since this is fact, God selects this one for Hell and another for Heaven, and thus fashions them so. God is made out to a nice sovereign bully damning people to hell for the sin He created in the devil and permitted to spread to humanity. Galatians 6:9, according to this view should read, “What God sows, man will reap, so shut the blank up and how dare you question God's sovereignty you potted clay basket case!”

It is this very attitude that creates strife. I would say the Holy Spirit of God in many Christians is grieved and insulted by this attitude which the attackers fortify with misunderstood scripture quotes to back such a claim. How can you answer it?

If you point out all the scriptures that speak of God letting man choose this day whom they'll serve, and empathize with the ability to think and reason without constraint that suggest that the human agent is a free moral instrument designed by God you are accused of having an 'ugly self will' rising up and not fit to be listened too.

On the other hand, overemphasizing human free will can lead to errors of believing that humanity can chose God without God's intervention. This is equally in error as the other and can lead to a Universalism that denies the righteousness and just recompense of God.

However, the majority of those that hold to the doctrine known as 'free will' really do not believe that the human agent can choose God on their own. They instead feel the Holy Spirit grieved by the other sides insult. They are at a lose to explain their position without being wrongfully accused of having 'ugly self will' raising up within them and waste endless hours in debate with baseball bat Christian's accusations.

Soon you have an ugly Christian fist fight while the world watches and mocks God at the light we so shine. Glory be! Or salt is wasted tossing it at each other instead of reflecting Our Lord and Savior — Jesus Christ to the world. We are not known by our love but rather the size of our fist, instead!

Is there an answer to this debate: Yes! It is found by comparing the nature and character of God with your doctrine and then be humble enough to change when God's nature and character demands it.

Are you ready to go on? I will not debate in endless round robin style as we have grown so a custom too. I will continue at another hour.

You can add you pet scriptures to back your claims to debate me. I may not answer directly your challenges but your challenges will be addressed as we explore who God is, how and why He does all things according to nature and character, which by the way, reveals His will. This way, you'll discover the answer on your own and we can stay on track and not chase rabbits down every doctrinal hole.

First things first read Proverbs 1:2-7 and I'll continue at another hour or day as God so wills.
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Let's continue where I left off. Please note that in this brief discourse that I did not use scripture references as many were used before. In the upcoming dialogues there will be abundant scripture references verifying what I write. Note that this current discourse is filled with scripture as those with knowledge of the bible will recognize: Therefore…

Let's look at God's sovereignty. Of course God is sovereign and actively guides the affairs of humanity, including you and me. God is not passive nor watches in complacent idleness. He is vigorously involved leading and directing the universe and creation to His final goal — A New Heavens and Earth.

A sparrow cannot fall without God's design for it too. God knows the number of our days on this planet, the hairs on our body. God uses the wicked for his own purposes. He directs our steps toward a goal — repentance. The lot is cast into the lap but the final outcome comes from God. All these things the bible boldly teaches about God's sovereign nature; Scriptures to numerous to permit doubt about this.

The majority of Christians agree with this: God is actively in control and not passive. He did not wind some proverbial clock and then forgot to set the alarm failing to wake up from His seventh day rest. The eyelids of the Lord test the sons of men is a truer statement than most realize. What do you really do when the boss is not watching?

The question is not that God is active or passive but rather How He exercises his sovereign plans, purposes, will. It is our neglect to seek God on this matter that has caused so much confusion. It is our failure to explore how God demonstrates who he is through the attributes of his nature and character that has caused so much current discord between the brethren. We need to examine these divine attributes of God to find the answer to the debate. This is what I am attempting to do.

The attributes of God's nature and character reveal in a snapshot how he governs the universe. Neglect this, you will discover the wrong picture of God and can end up staining his name without even knowing it. Yes, God is watching.

Interesting that Jesus tells us to ask in accordance to His name. In the bible, a name reflects the character of an individual. If you begin to grasp God's character, you'll ask according to His will. You ask thusly in accordance to Christ name and then what? What is to be revealed? Our nature and character or God's?

As you can see, it is important to know God. Now, let's apply this to God's nature and character regarding how he actively controls all the affairs of men and the universe.

As stated before, God is just, righteous, perfect in all His ways. God cannot sin, nor can He lie. God is fair beyond human comprehension. God exercises a profound circumspect justice way beyond our realm. God's love tests the hearts of those he made intelligent and wise. God's love is way beyond our own. God alone is wise, truly all powerful and sovereign.

How then does He govern? His righteous and perfect ways displays a thoughtful fairness to how He governs. His profound circumspect justice displays action and holds accountable those He test. His ways are right and pure. You can say his awesome love guides his justice, steers his righteousness that directs his mercy, etc, which reveals all of himself to those He created; thus, clearly demonstrating that God is truly all powerful to none other than himself.

He is fair. He causes the rain to fall on the just and unjust. He created beings with intelligence and wisdom to reason on their own. How can he be all powerful if he cannot control free minded beings? This matches and proves the equity, fairness, righteousness, justice, love, mercy, grace and greatness of God perfectly. If God cannot govern free minded beings, He cannot be all powerful. We were created for His good pleasure.

God cannot sin nor does he create sin, nor does God tempt one to sin i.e. makes one sin. He does not make the wicked, wicked. The wicked are ensnared by the works of their own hands. Free minded beings, angels and human beings, create sin. Now ponder this, God still remains in control; proving his divine nature and character through all this. Wow, that is truly absolutely all powerfully sovereign! God has a divine plan. Hint: it takes heat to remove dross.

This demonstrates how truly awesome God is — designing us in a manner that proves He is all powerfully sovereign way beyond what we can even imagine! He permits, by his divine design, for us and even the angels, the ability to think and morally reason independently and then still is able to reach His desired goal. That is sovereignty! Think on this for awhile.

This does not mean that we can chose God on our own, or earn our own way to heaven and God's favor by earning points for good behavior. The initiative resides with God alone to save. His initiative does not violate his design that he graciously granted us.

God still remains in control of all things. God displays His initiative by engaging us with a call, a test. We were designed to respond gratis to God's call, test. This proves God is right and fair and just, etc.

Responsibility teaches consequences. How else can we learn that we are really accountable for our acts as the bible plainly teaches. What a man sows, that He will also reap. This is right, just, fair, perfectly demonstrating a love and mercy profound.

God cannot deny Himself. To himself he remains true. No wonder all his faithful heavenly angels shout “Glory to God, God Most High, worthy to be praised, worthy of honor, and renown!” Yes, we do exist for God! Glory Be! Amen and Amen!

This ability we were designed with is a gift from God but from the clay of Adam we became corrupted by sin. God therefore shapes and molds the clay from this same lump. How does He do so and why?

If you can, match your answers to God's Nature and Character. Do you see his will, plans, and purposes yet? You see, God truly does know all things. He has a plan. The first three chapters in Genesis reveals all that have I just said. We will go there next if time permits.
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B.W.,

I want to deal with your posts in detail, so it will take some time. I particularly want to deal with what we agree on at least in name, that God is Sovereign. What does that mean?

I also want to delve into God's "foreknowledge". What does foreknowledge mean? Is it simply knowledge of realization? If that were true, then an all-knowing God "foreknows" everybody? What does Jesus mean when He tells the wicked in the Day of Judgment, "I never knew you"? Of course he knew that they existed. He knew everything about them. I'll expound more later.

I will also totally disagree with you that "God can change His mind". If that were true, He may decide that Jesus's Death wasn't enough for us. But I'll get into more detail later. I first need to debunk Lowly One's (Gregory Boyd's) posts.

I, again, want to reiterate that there are many saved Arminians. However, the issues that we are debating are not small ones. I will pray with an Arminian, and occasionally attend Arminian services when friends have special occasions. However, I'm not interested in shelving sound doctrine for the sake of unity. Jesus prayed for unity, but not at the expense of Doctrine. Such is really no unity at all.

Will respond in due time.

God Bless,

PL

Perhaps B.W. should continue essentially uninterupted until his entire discourse is complete, so that this great discussion doesn't get bogged down in debate. Then upon completion a response can formed in full. Are you ok with that PL?

Definitely. I want to take my time on this...