Evidence for God from Science

Posted: **Thu Mar 02, 2006 8:04 am**

Furthermore, God Himself is implicated as being responsible for death.

Doesn't a criminal bring the judgement on himself?

Posted: **Thu Mar 02, 2006 8:15 am**

Jbuza wrote:
Canuckster1127 wrote:With you're own words... Please explain to me how Adam did this in 24 hours. See what I mean about selective hermeneutics?
Please explain with the Bible's Words how you know it was done in 24 hours.

Jbuza,

I don't. I'm an old earther. That's why I asked IRQ, who is YEC and claims 24 hour days to explain how Adam named all the animals in 1, 24 hour day if as he was noting, there were large numbers of species present.

This is a key reason why I do not accept 24 hour days. It is internally inconsistent with the Scriptures themselves in this area. I believe this provides pretty accurate indication internally that yom is to be understood as a long period of time and that the evening and morning reference refers more in the context of a beginning and end to these periods of creation.

I could just write it off as mythology or poetic metaphore entirely as theistic evolutions do, but I believe hermeneutically you have to treat the text as literally as the context, literary devices and understanding of the audience of the original manuscripts (which is further complicated by the fact that we don't have the originals, although I believe we constructively do have their equivalent) allows.

It's not easy. But not to do so, efectively negates inspiration and inerrency. You can't play fast and loose with the text in one area without establishing a foundation to do it in others. I'm in complete agreement with YEC'rs in that regard. Where I take issue with them is they interpretive devices they use, and the inconistency with which it is applied through the entire Genesis narrative.

Posted: **Thu Mar 02, 2006 8:38 am**

So then it would basically be a non issue for him, if you cannot demonstrate that it was actually done in 24 hours. Right?

Posted: **Thu Mar 02, 2006 8:41 am**

Jbuza wrote:So then it would basically be a non issue for him, if you cannot demonstrate that it was actually done in 24 hours. Right?

No.

I don't believe it was done in 24 hours. Further I don't believe it could have been.

The onus is on him to explain how it could have been done in 24 hours since he is the one claiming 24 hour days.

Posted: **Thu Mar 02, 2006 8:43 am**

If God said it and it was so, what was he doing with all his spare time? Listen I will say "let there be light" it took like five seconds. Or "let the sea fring forth swarms of fish" Bam

IS there anything in the passages that demonstrate the need for the time?

Posted: **Thu Mar 02, 2006 8:52 am**

Canuckster1127 wrote:
Jbuza wrote:So then it would basically be a non issue for him, if you cannot demonstrate that it was actually done in 24 hours. Right?
No.

I don't believe it was done in 24 hours. Further I don't believe it could have been.

The onus is on him to explain how it could have been done in 24 hours since he is the one claiming 24 hour days.

Simply because he claims that God created in 24 hour days does not mean that he believes that everything happened in 24 hours. Will you also ask him how they built all the pyramids in 24 hours? You need to demonstrate that with his consistent interpretation of 24 hour days that the Bible would also say that Adam named the animals in one morning and evening being a day.

Can you point to a passage that might suggest that Adam named all the animals in a day? Because if you cant you are esking him to explain something that isn't even proposed by YEC.

Posted: **Thu Mar 02, 2006 9:23 am**

Jbuza wrote:
Canuckster1127 wrote:
Jbuza wrote:So then it would basically be a non issue for him, if you cannot demonstrate that it was actually done in 24 hours. Right?
No.

I don't believe it was done in 24 hours. Further I don't believe it could have been.

The onus is on him to explain how it could have been done in 24 hours since he is the one claiming 24 hour days.
Simply because he claims that God created in 24 hour days does not mean that he believes that everything happened in 24 hours. Will you also ask him how they built all the pyramids in 24 hours? You need to demonstrate that with his consistent interpretation of 24 hour days that the Bible would also say that Adam named the animals in one morning and evening being a day.

Can you point to a passage that might suggest that Adam named all the animals in a day? Because if you cant you are esking him to explain something that isn't even proposed by YEC.

What is your interpretation of Day 6 and Genesis 2?

Posted: **Thu Mar 02, 2006 3:28 pm**

Not sure.

All I have is questions.

God created man, then after his rest on the seventh day he created Adam?

Not real sure. I do see how it could be construed that Adam had to name all the animals in 24 hours.

Is this not possible?

Are the days different before the sun and moon than after the sun and moon?

Is it reasonable to assume 24 hours after the sun and moon?

Is it unreasonable to assume 24 hours before the sun and moon?

IF God caused a horse to be formed from the ground how long would it take? How long would it take Adam to say you are a horse? Couldn't Adam easily name 300-400 animals an hour? Did he name the fish of the sea? Insects?

Sorry no answers.

Posted: **Thu Mar 02, 2006 4:05 pm**

Canuckster1127 wrote:I know how I answer the questions below as an Old Earther. I'd like to know how my Young Earth brothers and sisters answer them. I'm not trying to trap you but I may have some follow-up questions.

1. Genesis 1 - The Fourth Creation day. How do you explain 24 hour days from day 1 - 3 when the astronomical bodies needed to frame that time frame were not in existence?
There was light before the sun, that was the marker one would think.

2. Follow-up to Question 1, what exegetical rules or hermeneutical principles are you introducing in you answer to Question 1 and how do you allow for their application throughout the Creation narrative in other areas?
Easy, later as the sun was made, and stars, a day was still a day.

3. How do you reconcile the differences in the creation narratives in Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 in terms of chronological order?
Gen 1 is the order. Period. Gen 2 is a return to flesh out some of the details.

Obviously, the 2 do not match, so either one must be right (or more right) than the other in terms of context and intent of the writer. On what basis do you decide in favor of the one over the other? Is your evidence for your decision, internal or external to the text?

The order was given in the first chapter. Just look at the intro to the next chapter! Things were already done, finished. No question. Then we go back and have a better look, filling in a few things.

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

Posted: **Thu Mar 02, 2006 4:37 pm**

Bart, don't you read my posts? I already explained that my assumption of Adam naming a species as opposed to naming kinds may be wrong.

At any rate I wanted to argue that God could stop time until I remembered it says He only did that on the one occasion.

I know that things seem impossibe logically, but God operates outside our logic. When God say's something happened this way or that, then thats the way it happened regardless of our ability to see it or not.

sa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

If the cardinal numbers and context of "morning and night" (plain english) are not going to convince you, nothing will.

Joh 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
Joh 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

How is it we can believe a man can be raised from the dead after four days (oopps theres that 'd' word again) and not think God could do what He say's He did from old?

1Co 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1Co 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Don't be swayed so easily with the wind.

Posted: **Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:23 pm**

The Biblical inerrantist Norman Geisler summarises several Biblical arguments for long days in his Baker Encyclopedica of Christian Apologetics. Some are as follows:

i) Hebrews 4 teaches that God is still in that seventh-day cessation from creating described as a day in Genesis 2:2-3. This day, then, is at least 6000 years long.
ii) Gen 1:12 (the third day) the text says, "The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds." Needless to say the land (not God) takes more than a day to produce mature vegetation.
iii) the sixth day, considering everything that happened, would appear to be considerably longer than a solar day. It seems highly unlikely all these events could be compressed within a 24 hour period.
- God created all the many thousands of land animals (Gen. 1:24-25)
- God formed man from dust (Gen. 2:7)
- God planted a garden (Gen 2:8), suggests activity involving time
- Adam observed and named all the thousands of animals (Gen. 2:19).
- God promised, "I will make him a helpmeet" (Gen. 2:18), denoting a subsequent time.
- Adam searched for a mate for himself, "But for Adam no suitable helper was found [implying a time of searching]" (Gen. 2:20)
- God put Adam to sleep for a time and operated on him, taking out one of his ribs and healing the flesh (Gen. 2:21)
- Adam indicated he had anticipated Eve for some time (Gen. 2:23).
- Eve was brough to Adam who observed her; accepted her; and was joined to her (Gen. 2:22-25).

Kurieuo

Posted: **Thu Mar 02, 2006 6:09 pm**

Kurieuo wrote:i) ii) Gen 1:12 (the third day) the text says, "The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds." Needless to say the land (not God) takes more than a day to produce mature vegetation.

Gen 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

With your line of thinking, it's ok to give God more breathing room, but your naturalistic view doesn't make sense since a thousand years of darkness in itself would extinguish all life on the planet. Trust God when He say's He did something by the Word of His mouth (Jesus) then thats what happened!

iii) the sixth day, considering everything that happened, would appear to be considerably longer than a solar day. It seems highly unlikely all these events could be compressed within a 24 hour period.
- God created all the many thousands of land animals (Gen. 1:24-25)
- God formed man from dust (Gen. 2:7)
- God planted a garden (Gen 2:8), suggests activity involving time
- Adam observed and named all the thousands of animals (Gen. 2:19).
- God promised, "I will make him a helpmeet" (Gen. 2:18), denoting a subsequent time.
- Adam searched for a mate for himself, "But for Adam no suitable helper was found [implying a time of searching]" (Gen. 2:20)
- God put Adam to sleep for a time and operated on him, taking out one of his ribs and healing the flesh (Gen. 2:21)
- Adam indicated he had anticipated Eve for some time (Gen. 2:23).
- Eve was brough to Adam who observed her; accepted her; and was joined to her (Gen. 2:22-25).

Kurieuo

Typical putting God in a box. Would it shock you If I said I believe God could create all that He did in a day? Would you think that would be stretching Gods abilities?

God is a God of order, and it pleased Him to do the things He did in the order He did them in. You cannot and we must not restrict God to our natural view of Spiritual creation.

Who do you think Created the things in nature and the Laws by which things are governed? Do you think that god made a law that would limit His abilities and He had to wait for His creation to do something before He could proceed?

Posted: **Thu Mar 02, 2006 6:48 pm**

IRQ Conflict wrote:If the cardinal numbers and context of "morning and night" (plain english) are not going to convince you, nothing will.

Firstly, it is not "morning and night" but rather "evening and morning"! Strange construction don't you think? This construction better suits the idea this is simply the way the author is saying the yom came to an end. Especially as I've mentioned numerous times previously, was the Sun did not exist for the first three solar days (according to YECs). If "evening and morning" were intended to represent that of a solar day, then why was it not written like: "In the morning God did such and such, and then evening came, one day. In the the morning God did such and such, and then evening came, the second day..." etc. This would settle the matter from the standpoint of a literal hermenuetic.

Further, it is interesting we have yom echad ("one day") rather than yom rishon ("first day") like "second day", "third day", and so forth as is the case for the other days. This is interesting not just because there could have been numerous solar days before the "one day", but a literal solar day requires Earth's existence to begin. If Earth did not exist at the beginning of creation, then it is not possible that the first solar day (as YECs believe it was) could have begun. Earth needs to exist in order for the first day to begin. Therefore, there is good reason to think the "one day" was not a solar day and instead yom is better represented by its other meaning as an age of time.

Now I will end by quoting Richard Deem who provides his own thoughts regarding "evening and morning" in an article on this website:

The Hebrew word ereb, translated evening also means "sunset," "night" or "ending of the day." The Hebrew word boqer, translated morning, also means "sunrise," "coming of light," "beginning of the day," or "dawning," with possible metaphoric usage (1). Our English expression: "The dawning of an age" serves to illustrate this point. This expression in Hebrew could use the word, boqer, for dawning, which, in Genesis 1, is often translated morning.

Do all the instances of "morning" and "evening" refer to a literal period of time? Here is an example from Moses:<blockquote>In the morning it [grass] flourishes, and sprouts anew; Toward evening it fades, and withers away. (Psalms 90:6)</blockquote>This verse refers to the life cycle of grass (compared to the short life span of humans). Obviously, the grass does not grow up in one morning and die by the same evening. The period of time refers to its birth(morning) and its death (evening) at least several weeks (if not months) later.

The first thing one notices when looking at Genesis 1 is the unusual construction surrounding the words morning and evening together with day. This combination is very rare, occurring only ten times in the Old Testament, six of which, of course, are in the Genesis creation account. The remaining four verses (NASB) are listed below:<ol>
<li>"This is the offering which Aaron and his sons are to present to the LORD on the day when he is anointed; the tenth of an ephah of fine flour as a regular grain offering, half of it in the morning and half of it in the evening." (Leviticus 6:20)</li>
<li>Now on the day that the tabernacle was erected the cloud covered the tabernacle, the tent of the testimony, and in the evening it was like the appearance of fire over the tabernacle, until morning. (Numbers 9:15)</li>
<li>"For seven days no leaven shall be seen with you in all your territory, and none of the flesh which you sacrifice on the evening of the first day shall remain overnight until morning." (Deuteronomy 16:4)</li>
<li>"And the vision of the evenings and mornings which has been told is true; but keep the vision secret, for it pertains to many days in the future." (Daniel 8:26)</li>
</ol>
The first three verses obviously refer to 24 hour days, since this is readily apparent from the context. The fourth one refers to many evenings and mornings, which "pertains to many days in the future." This verse actually refers to events that are yet to happen, which is 3000 years of days from when it was originally written. One could easily say that these mornings and evenings represent thousands of years.

However, none of these verses have the form which is seen in the Genesis account. Let's look at the form of these "evenings and mornings:"<ul>
<li>And God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day. (Genesis 1:5)</li>
<li>And God called the expanse heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day. (Genesis 1:8)</li>
<li>And there was evening and there was morning, a third day. (Genesis 1:13)</li>
<li>And there was evening and there was morning, a fourth day. (Genesis 1:19)</li>
<li>And there was evening and there was morning, a fifth day. (Genesis 1:23)</li>
<li>And God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day. (Genesis 1:31)</li>
</ul>
The actual number of words in Hebrew is much fewer than that of the English translations. The words "and there was" are not in the Hebrew, but added to make the English flow better. The actual translation is "evening and morning 'n' day." There is no way to discern from the context that the text is referring to 24 hour days.

How would God have changed the text if He intended it to indicate 24 hour days? If God were to have created in 24 hour days, I would have expected the Genesis text to have begun with a statement to the effect that "God did 'x' in the morning" and "God did 'y' in the evening," as opposed to the very unusual construction of telling all God did and then ending with both evening and morning side by side at the end of the "day." So, the order indicates the end (evening) of one day is followed by the dawning (morning) of the next day. In addition, one would expect that if God chose to create the world in a few days He would have indicated it was all created in a few days instead of one day (Genesis 2:4) (2). This verse indicates to me that the Genesis days are other than 12 or 24 hour periods of time.

(http://www.godandscience.org/youngearth/longdays.html)

Kurieuo

Posted: **Thu Mar 02, 2006 6:49 pm**

Jbuza, don't fret over answers that no man can answer.

Trust in God with all your mind.

Posted: **Thu Mar 02, 2006 6:58 pm**

IRQ Conflict wrote:With your line of thinking, it's ok to give God more breathing room, but your naturalistic view doesn't make sense since a thousand years of darkness in itself would extinguish all life on the planet. Trust God when He say's He did something by the Word of His mouth (Jesus) then thats what happened!

As has been previously corrected, only YECs tend to believe the Sun was created on day 4. The general Day-Age view (which you can look into on the <a href="http://www.godandscience.org/" target="_blank">GodandScience.org</a> website) says the Sun was created in the beginning—the heavens and earth. I would recommend reading the links that have been posted here, as one should at least understand a position before disagreeing with it.

IRQ wrote:
iii) the sixth day, considering everything that happened, would appear to be considerably longer than a solar day. It seems highly unlikely all these events could be compressed within a 24 hour period.
- God created all the many thousands of land animals (Gen. 1:24-25)
- God formed man from dust (Gen. 2:7)
- God planted a garden (Gen 2:8), suggests activity involving time
- Adam observed and named all the thousands of animals (Gen. 2:19).
- God promised, "I will make him a helpmeet" (Gen. 2:18), denoting a subsequent time.
- Adam searched for a mate for himself, "But for Adam no suitable helper was found [implying a time of searching]" (Gen. 2:20)
- God put Adam to sleep for a time and operated on him, taking out one of his ribs and healing the flesh (Gen. 2:21)
- Adam indicated he had anticipated Eve for some time (Gen. 2:23).
- Eve was brough to Adam who observed her; accepted her; and was joined to her (Gen. 2:22-25).

Typical putting God in a box. Would it shock you If I said I believe God could create all that He did in a day? Would you think that would be stretching Gods abilities?

I'm just trying to follow Scripture. On the other hand I'd say your putting God in a box and ignoring the passages I've provided. Would it shock you if God decided to let the plants grow naturally as Scripture suggests, that He took time to mould Adam and breath life into him, to allow Adam time to get to know other creatures God created, to allow Adam time to realise he had no partner? Where does this idea come from that everything must be done in an instant, like a genie, because we are talking God?

IRQ wrote:God is a God of order, and it pleased Him to do the things He did in the order He did them in. You cannot and we must not restrict God to our natural view of Spiritual creation.

Notice you are reacting to Scriptures I've quoted for my position? I'm just looking to Scripture for an idea on how God chose to create, and it appears to me God wasn't in a rush and that He liked taking His time.

Kurieuo

Evidence for God from Science

How old is the earth

Re: Just a couple of Questions