Evidence for God from Science

I've done this with PL before. If you want to supply me with Scripture to support your opinion, by all means do so. It's the only way to validate your beliefs. However, if and when I explain them, don't just keep moving on. You have to deal with the arguments presented, as I have been dealing with, and will continue to deal with, yours.

• Matt 24:12-14 - ¹²Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, ¹³but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. ¹⁴And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come

Notice the context of this passage is the Olivet Discourse. Jesus is speaking concerning the tribulation period, those last days when the Antichrist will reign over the earth before Messianic Kingdom is established. Enduring "to the end" refers to the end of the tribulation, not to the end of life. David Anderson has remarked here:

Anderson wrote:A significant change in one area of systematic theology can cause significant changes in another area. By definition a system is coherent and consistent. Changes in one area of the system will most likely cause changes in other areas of that same system, which is why we have likened systematic theology to a spreadsheet. In the first installment of this study we chose Augustine as a case in point. His change in eschatology from premillennialism to amillennialism caused significant changes in his soteriology, especially in the area of perseverance of the saints. Specifically, his reinterpretation of Matt 24:13 (“he who endures to the end will be saved”) as a spiritual salvation instead of a physical salvation (to enter and populate the Millennium) caused drastic changes in his soteriology. Perseverance of the saints (faithfulness until the end of one's physical life) became the sine qua non of his soteriology. One could believe in Christ, have the fruit of the elect, but prove he was not elect if he should not persevere in faithfulness until the end of his physical life.

This goes to show how "not simple" things really are. Do you really want to get into a discussion on premillennialism vs. amillennialism now?

• Rom.8:24 - For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has?

It is interesting that you use this passage in the "already saved" category, because it is very detrimental to your position. "This hope" refers to the adoption of sons and redemption of the body, referred to in verse 23. That is, we were saved unto our resurrection. Now, "hope" in our verse does not mean "hope" in the modern English usage, as if we are not sure of something, but we really would like to see it happen. The word is elpis, which refers to a solid expectation. It is the present enjoyment of future blessings. The TNDT, on p. 522, 531, states:

Hope as expectation of good is closely linked with trust, and expectation is also yearning, in which the element of patient waiting of fleeing for refuge is emphasised. Hope is thus hope of the good, and so as long as there is life there is hope . . . this hope is naturally directed to God . . . This hope is thus trust.

If hope is fixed on God, it embraces at once the three elements of expectation of the future, trust, and the patience f waiting. Any one of these aspects may be epmhasised. The definition of pistis as elpizomenon upostasis in Heb. 11:1 is quite en keeping with the OT interrelating of pisteuein and elpizein . . . The certainity of trust in a divinely given future is underlined.

Now, if we were saved as a past event (which "were saved" is, as it occurs in that tense), and we were saved into the hope of the resurrection, then it follows that all who were saved will be resurrected into redemption.

• Eph 2:5-8 - ⁵made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. ⁶And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, ⁷in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. ⁸For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God

Of special interest in this passage is the "you have been saved" at the end of verse five. That word is in the perfect tense, which means it is a completed action with ongoing results. Thus, Paul himself says that these people were saved. It is done. Of course, this salvation is by grace through faith and it is not of works.

• 1 Cor. 1:8 - ⁸He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This passage is wonderful in that in guarantees every believer will be saved. The "day of our Lord Jesus Christ" is a reference to the Bema Seat Judgment, which only Christians participate in. Thus, all believers will be judged there. Secondly, I don't like the rendering "keep you strong." The KJV and NASB have it better: "He will also confirm you . . ." That is, He will not deny those who are His own. Thus, Paul is able to say to Timothy, "if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself" (2 Tim. 2:13, NIV).

• 2 Cor. 2:15 - ¹⁵For we are to God the aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing. ¹⁶To the one we are the smell of death; to the other, the fragrance of life.

As you can see, I've included verse 16, because it is needed to complete the thought. You'll nowhere find me deny that we are "being saved." However, that reality does not necessitate that such a salvation can fail in the end. In other words, it does not make salvation conditional, for it is God who is saving, and not man. Now, in this verse, there is a contrast put forward. There is an "aroma of Christ" to God, and that aroma comes from believers. To those perishing (unbelievers), that aroma is the smell of death. To those being saved (believers), that aroma is the smell of life. In other words, Christians rejoice in their faith because they know they will life, but unbelievers despise that faith, because they do not understand it. It is, as Paul says, foolishness to them.

• Phil 2:12 - ¹²Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

This passage has been commonly misunderstood to mean that we have to do works to keep our salvation. This couldn't be further from the truth. The word "salvation" occurs two other times in Philippians, once in 1:19, and once in 1:28. In neither of those instances does the term refer to final, eschatological salvation. Just so, in 2:12, salvation "either refers to deliverance from the difficulties God brings upon the disobedient or to deliverance through the trials that the faithful experience, though not necessarily by means of escaping the trials themselves." (Wilkin)

Sadly, we often read "salvation" as if it were a technical term meaning "to deliver from hell." While it can and does refer to that, the word has a much broader meaning. The idea is simply "to deliver from danger." It is up to the context to determine what the danger is.

Now, there are some, even in my camp, who take this as referring to final salvation. In this case, they like to point that "work out" is different from "work for." So far as that goes, it is correct. Regardless, the command is to continue in obedience. To assume that the disobedience results in a loss of salvation is to go beyond the text. There could well be other forms of discipline.

• Rom. 5:9-10 - ⁹Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! ¹⁰For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

Oh jeez. I'm not sure how deep I want to take this explanation. Assuming we take "wrath" as a reference to hell, and I know of competent scholars who would not, the argument is that because we have been saved (past tense), we will be delivered from hell. There is no condition here. It will happen. The "for" in v. 10 is explanatory. God's enemies have been reconciled to Him through Jesus' death; therefore, we who are reconciled to Him by Jesus' life through faith in Him are no doubt delivered from wrath. Again, there are no conditions on our present behavior, but only the argument based on the reality of our position in Christ.

• 2 Cor. 3:13-15 - ¹²Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. ¹³We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. ¹⁴But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. ¹⁵Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts.

It doesn't seem that this passage needs much comment. We have a hope of salvation. It is assured to believers (v. 4). I assume you bring this up to use "hope" as if there is no assurance, but for that, see above.

• Rom. 5:2 - ²through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.

We stand in grace because we placed our faith in Christ. This positional reality gives us the hope, or expectation, of glory with God, which will be fulfilled in the resurrection.

• 2 Tim. 2:11-13 - ¹¹Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him; ¹²if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us; ¹³if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself.

Concerning the security of the believer, there are three positions a person can take. The first is that salvation can be lost. The second is that salvation cannot be lost, and evil works or a loss of faith thus proves the person was never saved. The third may be called "Secure yet scrutinized," in which we recognize that a person is eternally secure, and yet he may still fall from the faith. The results are disastrous, but they do not include hell.

I take the third position, obviously, and I think this verse strongly teaches it. If we died with Christ, we will live with him. "Died" is a past tense (aorist), and refers to the moment of conversion. It is impossible to read any continual death into this. The grammar simply does not allow for it. Thus, if we have died, then we are guaranteed that we will live with Him. It is therefore obvious that believers have 100% assurance of their salvation.

If we endure, we will reign. Not all Christians will reign with Christ. Many will have forfeited their inheritance. But, those who endure will reign.

If we disown him, he will disown us. Cf. Mark 8:34-38. "Disown" is better rendered "deny." For Christ to deny us does not mean that we are cosigned to Hell. It means that we lose our rights as coheirs with Him. Says McCoy:

McCoy wrote:"If we deny Him, He will also deny us." The second conditional clause of v 12 describes what will happen to the Christian who fails to live a consistent life of faithful endurance for Christ. If a believer "denies Christ" by not remaining steadfast for Him, he will in turn be denied the reward of "reigning with Him." The verb rendered "(if) we deny Him" is a present tense form of arneomai.21 Like its polar opposite "(if) we endure" in the first conditional clause of v 12, it has a gnomic or customary force. It describes the general overall character of a believer's experience. Link and Tiedtke, in The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, delineate the meaning of this verb as follows: "Generally arneomai means to fall back from a previous relationship with him into unfaithfulness . . . . The opposite of this denial is 'to hold fast' (Rev 2:13), or 'to be faithful' (2:10)."22 They further state that it is used to describe a "failure in discipleship."

The last phrase confirms this to be the case. If we are faithless, He is faithful. He promised that those who die with Him will live with Him, therefore, He cannot go back on that promise, lest He deny Himself. So, far from teaching that our future salvation is dependant on our works or continuance in faith, this teaches exactly the opposite. We are assured of salvation the moment we die with Christ. However, we are scrutinized as believers, and we will give a complete account of our lives at the Bema Seat. For an extended exegesis of this passage, see the McCoy article referenced above in full.

Byblos wrote:You just can't selectively pick and choose scripture to support a particular point of view. You have to look at the totality of scripture.

I have no problem with the idea that we have to look at the totality of Scripture. You'll find no passage that says that if we fail in our faith, then we find ourselves in hell. What you do find are statements that salvation results from faith alone. This is a one time process. Please note again Acts 16:31. If the verse teaches that to be saved, you simply must believe in Christ for a salvation that cannot be lost, then you have not believed that. As such, you have not believed the gospel. This is a serious issue, and I would suggest you spend time in prayer over it.

God bless

Jac, I have no intention of getting into a scriptural-quoting contest with you, I really don't, for two reasons:

First, like I said before, my scriptural knowledge pales in comparison to yours. And second, because I am certain it will serve no purpose other than to highlight our differences of opinion by taking us back to the questions of subjectivity in interpreting scripture and to the free will issue. Those are basically the crux of the argument we're having.

I know I've said this before but now I really mean it (I hope). From my side I think I've exhausted it and am comfortable leaving this discussion as is. I will extend you the benefit of a reply and a Happy Easter to all.

In Christ,

Byblos.