Evidence for God from Science

You could do what my brother did in Florida.

He lived in Palm Beach Country on a 2 acre lot. He fenced in the back of the property and bought a bull.

The bull's name was "Tax" which not so coincidentally was the true motive for said purchase. Property tax decreased considerably if you raised livestock.

The benefit was that he involved his 4 children in caring for the bull (later steer). My parents, who were vegetarians interestingly enough, lived there at the tine as well and they took the leavings from their juicing and chopping vegetables and went out with the kids regularly to feed.

A vegetarian bull! Everybody is happy!

After a while of feeding the bull .... the time came to "shoot the bull."

The kids were sad but knew this was part of why Tax was purchased and cared for in the first place.

I remember the party after the freezer was filled.

We all dined on "tax resteaks."

I understand if you don't have your own land sufficient or zoned.

Why not see if you can arrange a cobroke deal with a local famer and buy direct and then have it butchered and then keep a freezer. You can appease your conscience and dine heartily.

Of course, economy of scale concerns would not make this efficient for all and you will likely pay more than just buying at the supermarket.

Solves your problem though, doesn't it?

.

http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/video.asp ... speed=_med
nebraska pig farm video doesn't seem like theses animals are well taken care of not enough workers.

http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/video.asp ... speed=_med

three states of pigs farms.

Thanks everyone
vicky

Vicky,

Why all the PETA material?

You do understand that PETA operates on an different level than what you are presenting yourself as and further that because of that ideological bent PETA has every incentive to go looking for and then present anything they find in the most negative light they can? PETA could find go to 100 locations and find 2 instances of abuse or problems and despite the fact the what they found represented only 2% of the locations, they would represent it as 100% in order to promote their "animals are equal to humans" whacky agenda.

I'm going to leave it up, but this seems to be becoming more a platform for let's see how we can shock people and play on their emotions, rather than a discourse of the ethics of Christianity and US meat production.

There's a huge gap between that and what is being presented here and frankly I think it serves more to weaken your case than to build on the points presented earlier.

Bart

Bart,

Can I call you bart? I knew that this was going to be an issue. I did not want to use petas video but I am not that good with the computer. I tried to do the videos from there original sites but I could not. I did what was easy for me.

Bluesman was saying that he could not believe that animals would be treated badly when profit was involved.

Also Bart even if this is being done to 1% of farm animals it is to much. But on the other hand petas exaggeration needs to be confronted.

I am going to kansas at the end of the school year I am going to check out some farms while I'm there. I will let everyone know what I see.

Anyway sorry about the videos I will try harder not to upset anyone.


Thank You God bless

vicky

P.S. Thanks for the advice about the meat I liked the story also.

Bluesman was saying that he could not believe that animals would be treated badly when profit was involved.

I don't think I said that and if I did its not what I meant.
I would say that poor treatment of animals can results in loss of profit.
When poor treatment results in poor health and spoiled meat that has a negative affect on profit.

Now having said that ,certain economic condition have led us to where small farms are being replaced by very large farms. In this business climate to maintain a profit , factory farms are required. High density of animals and over-crowded condition is not the best, but within that treating the animal as best as possible is good for profit.

About meat Vicky, if you have a large family or friends to go in on it you can get a bulk order of meat.
I buy about $1000 Canadian worth of meat at one time. Now you don't need to get such a large order. You can maybe get a quarter instead.
When you buy in bulk you save a lot of money. When you buy in bulk you can chose who you buy from.

Michael Thomas

Thanks Bluesman,

How long would that amount of meat last a family of three. I am interested if you know of any in n.y that I could go to. If not I will look into it myself.

I just wanted to say that you are absolutely right about alot of these organizations. They do make outrageous claims. I do not endorse this and that is why I never spoke of it . I have tried to stick to the moral issue of eating meat.

There are probably alot of simple minded people who do not know how to pick the just causes from outrageous ones. I myself look passed all the boloney to the issues I think are justified.

It makes me mad that they are so out to lunch because so much more could be done.

Like if I were in charge of there company I would take those videos to whatever company buys from that farm and show them what is happening. If that didn't work I would make the public aware that if they purchase from this company this is what they are supporting.

I would also praise farms that practice good huspandry and encourage peolpe to buy from them. But you and I know that this is not there agenda so I have to sift through it to find issues that are worthy of attention.

For me it is not all or nothing. Please understand this. I take want I want and leave the rest. Also I am learning if you guys see something that is blatantly a lie let me know.

I'm just trying to be the best person that I can be. To embrace all of Gods world to treat it kindly and with respect. This is an awesome world God gave us.


Thank you and God bless

Vicky

I agree with Bluesman in terms of buying bulk. I could easily advise you on how to contact a farmer that raises and butchers cattle here in Alberta, but NY is a far cry with what I'm familiar.

The concept though, would be to get in touch with a farmer and offer to purchase one of his cattle for butcher. Most likely the farmer will eventually butcher one for himself too, and can do it at the same time. You can pay him quite a bit more than what he would get just selling the cow on open market, and still have the meat be a lot cheaper than in a grocery store. There are two hurdles though: 1) You'll get about 1000 lbs of meat all at once. That's where a group of people come in. 2) Here in Alberta the final cost of the meat including butchering is about 60% max of what it costs in the store. The issue is that you get a lot of hamburger and not as many steaks, roasts, and fillets as you'd buy from a store. But an added benefit is that you can control the fat content of your ground beef - fat is added to pretty much all grocery store ground beef but you can direct the butcher to add none. Depending on the breed, you can end up with some extremely lean ground beef, which IMO is a good thing.

In terms of space, 1000 lbs of meat would fill a 17 cubic foot freezer pretty much completely. It keeps probably 3 years at least I'd say.

Victoria that first video link does not portray typical treatment of pigs on a factory farm. Isolated incidents occur, but it is not indicative of the industry.

I suggest removing the link from your thread, I can see where Canuckster1127 is coming from.

I haven't had a chance to fully view the rest. You'll get a better idea on your trip to Kansas.

P.S. I noticed boils and lesions on the pigs as well as the crowded conditions on some of the clips, these are just some of the realities of the economics of this industry.
=(

Thanks so much,

Begood for goodsake,could you tell me how to remove that link I have no idea.

Felgar did you say that the meat would last for 3 year. I have a vacuum sealer
I would have to buy a freezer but that would be awesome.

I emailed a farm upstate to purchase meat from them. I was concerned with how they were transported but I never received any reply so I am still eating fake meat.

Its not so bad for me but I know my huspand would love a steak.

Thank you for all of your compassion and help.
God bless all of you.
vicky

You should see an edit button next to your post, click it and you will see a sceen similar to the one you get when you enter a new post. Only this time your original text will be in there.

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WARNING next section may be too graphic for some.
P.S.
Even when people hunt for their food it's not uncommon to have a deer still alive after it is shot. At this point some people give it a swift kick before bleeding it. As you may or may not know you need to slit the throat deep in order to gut the deer properly. Some people will slit the throat deeply before bleeding and bleed the doe this way. Some will do all three at once finishing off the deer by bleeding it without giving the deer a swift kick or finishing it off with a pistol.

The first video may seem like terrible treatment, but the final sequence is something which humans have done for all of history. Just wanted to get that into perspective, that no matter how humanely you treat the animal during it's life, and no matter how well you transport them, the end will always be brutal. Now I don't know why they dragged and kicked the animal out before processing it (I haven't had time to view it with the volume up) but that to me was very disrespectful of the life they were about to take, and bordered on the criminal.

On the other end of the spectrum, perhaps the problem with those in PETA is that some people are never exposed to the realities of life and see the world in some sort of abstract and idealistic manor. And when faced with such necessary cruelty react in shock and horror enough to go vegetarian.

I will repeat again I don't think that is natural and I would die if I could not have meat. However if I kill a deer in the woods and take it home to eat I know that the deer led a noble and free life. I can't say the same for the processed hamburgur which probably lived its life confined and spent much of it's life attached to a milking machine.

Yeah the meat will last about 3 years safely I'd say - two years for sure. It comes wrapped and sealed in paper. I think you could probably squeek out a little more longevity if you also bagged it in a sealed freezer bag.

Oh, when you do contact the farm be sure to specify that you want the entire animal and that you trust the farmer. It would be pretty easy to take a few extra good cuts for yourself and just ship the rest to a customer. But the good cuts are more sparse than you'd think and if it's all hamburger then it's really not great value for your money. (though if having NO beef was the alternative, good value for me would be like $100/ounce. )

Dairy cattle aren't slaughterred for eating as a rule...

Be good,
I agree totally. I myself would not like hunting but if done with respect I think it is one of the nobler sports.

I have gone to hunting sites and also watched them on tv because I have always been curious to what any one would get out of it.

I have come to the conclusion that to the people that hunt it seems to be a commune with nature at its best and worst. There is some closeness they feel that they could not get any other way.

For me I am happy to commune with nature and be no part of the killing process. To just enjoy it all in its wonder and terror. But I think that we even each other out. If everyone hunted their would be nothing left and if no one hunted there would be to much.

Thats why I get made when the animal rights go after the hunting. Its just not the same ,and it should not all be lumped together.


Thank you God bless
vicky

I real don't know about how well meat lasts for 2 years.
I find the Hamburger gets pretty old tasting after 1 year, although still safe
to eat. Really I think its best to eat it within a year.

I buy from a meat packer and not direct from a farmer.
Therefore I can buy a side or a quarter even and still save money.
Here in Northern Ontario we really don't have much of the big factory farms
like I think they do in Southern Ontario and in Alberta cattle country.

The problem with meat you get from a store is that his has been frozen and thawed and refrozen. So maybe its good for 6 months tops.

I really don't know whats common among Deer hunters especially in the USA, but I certainly have not heard much about kicking a Deer.

Really depending on how alive the Deer still is it can be still dangerous.
I would recommend using another bullet in the head.
If not slitting the throat would be preferred.
Its also recommended not to chase a shot deer that runs out of sight right away. After its shot the Deer (if not chased) will quickly lie down and quickly bleed to death. A good hunter always takes a shot when he knows he can make a clean kill. Are there bad hunters? Yes.
Now days a lot of Deer are killed with a slug fired by a shotgun at very close range. This leads to a very quick kill and little suffering.
Anyways nature in itself can be very cruel and hunting often prevents the cruel nature of wild population swings. I have seen first hand wildlife preserves where hunting is not allowed. The deer became very over-populated , they had eaten up most of their normal diet and were forced to eat food that they didn't normally eat. They were slowly starving to death. this then leads to a population crash and in effect very small number of Deer.

One other thing is how can you say the problem is just meat?
Do you like bananas? Do you know where they come from?
Do you know the suppliers of seed are connected with the chemical companies? Why do we have to wash our fruits and vegetables before eating them?
My brother owned an organic farm before he had to give it up.
It was labour intensive and hard to make a profit.
However, the food was superior and better for you and the environment.

In a different but similar issue, Do you buy goods from China?
From Walmart? From what I see they treat their works worse then some animals get treated.

My point is that every choice we make has a impact. For these groups to think they are superior just because they don't eat meat is ignorant.

Michael Thomas

Michael,

Where in Northern Ontario are you, if you don't mind me asking. I grew up near Toronto, but I still have family in Northern Ontario and spent a lot of time there as a youngster.

Bart

Just a year Bluesman? Is it wrapped in that thick paper or selofane? Hmmm.. I'll ask around in my fam...