Evidence for God from Science

Thank you Bart, and please don't be reluctant to say anything, even if you are a man. I find myself trying to be open to both sides of an issue, and all ideas on this subject.

Hello Jenna, hello all...

I also have read this entire thread, and for I, as well, it was all very enlightening. I am a man and in my case, I have lived and made love to many women. I am living with the same woman for 12 years. Sex for me as well had been a form of exchange of attention and - looking for love coming from them -. I wanted to be loved by them and sex was the way to achieve it.

In my family we grew up without mutch of love and attention, care and normal emotional drive from our parents. They where always fighting, physically and psychologically as well. My mother was violent physically against my father and her children. My father was an abuser psychologically against his wife and his children.

To me it is more important to be able to respond to how we had to live and being raised as children, and what had been our way of living our lives during the rest of our life because of that, than a question of sin or lust factor. There is pornography and sexual abuse all over the place, but there is also a lot of normal sexual behaviours that are hidden... within parental and societal responsabilities... and christianity like other form of religions have not been very helpfull for most of it. Moral conciousness is good, but moral abuse is wrong. Saying to a person not to do something without explanation is wrong.

How about this youg man who sometimes masturbates in front of those multiple pornographic images and movies presented to him freely on the internet. And this pastor or psychologist to respond that there is relatively nothing wrong with that as long as it is not producing a factor of upcoming abuse by the exageration of it... and so on. And in some case who is there to juge this very young man that does not, in his mind, bring more pleasure to oneself than figuring out the fact that he wants to give pleasure to a fictive woman (and doing so because he is single, as a possibility?).

To bring this phrase that you wrote: - I am much better at controlling myself, but I still find it hard to control myself sometimes. - it is clear in my mind that I, to, have sometimes difficulties to live it up... I still have the sense of need to be loved by the woman I am with, but I live with it in a more acceptable way because my woman accepted me the way I am and was open to talk about it (including my childhood experiences).

Today intimacy with my woman is more important than sex... and our sex life is just part of it. We sleep together in the same bed. I often touch her body without getting her out of sleep, without any sexual intentions, just to feel her presence not to say to feel the love I have for her.

I do believe that understanding ouselves is very important and I do believe that in some ways psychology is important as a tool (while exchanging with others is more powerfull, as it is the power of words). I have been helped by the reading of a book titled Imaginary Crimes, by Lewis Engle and Tom Ferguson.

Jenna, my native language is French, so I hope I was able to be clear anough. Thank you very mutch to bringing your experiences to us.

Very sincerely,
Victor

For having another native language, you speak it better than some of us! Thank you for your post.

It was kinda "nice" to meet a woman here, because, seriously, it is thought that men only struggle with this. It is said that "if a man lusts with a woman etc" never the other way around. But WHY?? Because we are differnet by nature? Then we cant be really blamed for it; thats our psychology. Why would men have to behave differently to women in this issue? Then God couldnt judge us equally on this issue.

I've heard that men are the "sexual beasts" and sex is all they think about, and that women always think about the emotional things. But since we cant choose whether we are men or women - we will be what we are born as. Now - does this apply due to our psychological differences? May be so, but just to say during the past 18 yrs of my life I was looking both for some kind of satisfaction (not sexual!) in love and love itself. Unfortunately, due to my personality i wanst able to find a girlfriend. Not that am evil but i find it hard to meet new people and make friends and I am not outgoing like other people. And I didnt find anyone who loved me in that way. I liked quite a lot of girls, and i still like someone now, but i am afraid to tell her. OK. The thing is, i DO NOT think about her in any nasty evil sexual way, but rather how to live TRUE LOVE. IS this lust?? I dont think it would be fair if it were. I want to be with her and all that stuff, but am not thinking about sex. Is this then a sin?
And then i see all the guys whose main intention is SEX having girls all the time and "having a good time", whilst I, who tries to be pure doesnt get anything. FAIR? What to do? Become like them? Masturbate? Dont want even to go into that; not that I do it but some people would do. Thats sin; i stay away from that!! But i want to enjoy pure and good love with someone without any evil sexual thoughts and sex involved. Is it even possible?
And is having/wanting to have a girlfriend sin if we dont think about her in a sexual way? Can we like some people more or differnetly than others yet staying fair? We were made to enjoy some fellowship here, so...

And sex and all that is the result of our brain chemistry, like many other things. To what extent can we really be blamed for it? Can we be "blamed" for liking someone or lusting after someone? Doesnt it all go back to evolution (if u believe in it) or to some things which we cannot explain why we like someone but do?

AS for the differences between men and women, certainly there are differences, but that doesn't mean we are exempt from lust. It manifests itself differently. For instance, even in fantasies, I think women focus more on fantasies involving a man and woman IN a relationship.

CAse in point.....look at the forms of lust that are out there for men and women. Men, predominantly visual, not much storyline, no relationship needed necessarily to arouse. And I think this is where you see the big dictates out there that mislead you into thinking its not a woman's problem. It very much can be...but you just don't realize *where* women find their fantasies. WE're not as prone to immediately be aroused by looking at a man who is well-built. We may sigh and shake our head, but for most, I would hazard a guess, we don't immediately lust.

And I think this is where many women don't realize how their dress affects men. I truly think that some of the teenagers at school simply think, when they wear something low-cut, that the boys are simply looking at them and thinking, "wow, she looks great, doesn't that sweater look great on her!", not realizing that the statement might run more along the lines of "wow, look at her [fill in body part]...."

Women, and just look in the romance aisle in the bookstore next time and you will see what I'm referring to, have access to just as much lustful fantasy but it is found in those "bodice-rippers" (as we jokingly called them in the library I used to work at, because, of course, of the bodice of the dress falling off of the women on the cover dreadful sewing abilities, back in those days ). Unfortunately, I have read my fair share. And the scenes written in them prove that women can lust just as much as men!! I think for most of them, you see that the characters must have a history and there is an attempt (an attempt is all I can call it for most) of a storyline representing the characters falling for each other. A relationship.

UNfortunately, in many, the male character is represented as a fallen angel which the woman's love redeem's reforms, and turns him around from a rake to a loving, caring husband. Which, to be honest, is far more dangerous I think, than most of the seduction scenes. Those are the ones that are insidious, representing a false role for women, that of a savior and capable of reforming a man's character, a role only Christ and the HOly SPirit can perform. Such then, comes the "bad-boy" image that women seem to fall for.

I have seen the books change within the last ten years, too. There used to be a pretty standard formula where there *was* a relationship established in the book, they married, etc. She was a virgin and he the only one. That has changed in some books and I wonder if this is a reflection of the changes in society, where many of the women in the books are not virgins, have no care for their purity (where before they realized how valuable it was but was seduced by the man she loved, still not great, but there was a sense of losing that virginity being a bad thing). IN some of the current ones, which I never finished, They view their purity as an inconvenience and are happy to dispense with it. THe male characters have changed as well, being less honorable (he used to always propose marriage when the seduction took place), and in some on the new ones, there is a casualness to him as well.

So, no, it can be a problem for women, just not as out there as men's.

You make some good points Zoe. And thanks for jumping in here. Now I'm not the only woman in this thread.

thanks for your reply zoe. interesting. yeah the change in society is brutal. even in religion. people nowadays consider traditions to be "outdated", e.g. the confessions. They say its ridiculous koz the society has changed and all that. Similar to this. often i hear or read or see that losing virginity for someone is actually a honorable act. i may seem as conservative as i am, but i am strongly against abortions, premarital sex (i do sound ridiculous in my school and other places like that if i told them my TRUE opinion) and all that. Yet i believe this is the way i chose and what i believe thanks to my religion.
As for lust - yeah women have it as well. The thing is, it also depends on the personality. I know both men and women who are pretty much passive on the subject on opposite sex. i have friends with whom i never talk about girls or only in a respectable way. but then i hear other people's talks and all they sa is "wow look at that ass, hot chick" and all worse. ANY "hot" girl there is they just think, i think lust after. but i also know girls who would be described as very flirty or "slutty". Lust? dont know but cant restrain themselves from flirting and making out every weekend with someone else. But as for me, I hope God will let me have a nice girlfriend and LOVE will be the driving force to a relationship, not lust and sex.

And it's also interesting why we are interested to a certain person. And some girls i know are such that almost everybody lusts after them. But then some people have different "tastes" for girls, and doesnt find that person attractive. Why is that? Just pure genetics and biology deciding who we are interested in? And it is not our choice if we like/love/feel attracted to someone, is it?

BTW is it sinful to enjoy something with your boyfriend/girlfriend to whom you are not married? It's obvious that even if there is no sex, there will be some touching, hugging, kissing etc - which are all part of it but have a special effect on our neuronic connections (using fancy language here and some euphemisms ), make us happy and ... fill in the word... Is this sin? Apparently it releases some good hormones and endorphins and stimulates the brain in a good way! (similar to sex... which we see as evil...)

It's not the enjoyment that's sinful but rather the disobedience to the act outside of marriage.

We were built for physical intimacy, our bodies are designed to respond to visual and physical stimulation. And that, in itself, is not sinful, just like out enjoyment of chocolate is not sinful.

The behavior outside of marriage and committed relationship is what makes it a sin, (ultimately the conviction of the Holy Spirit, for some are convicted with kissing with their boyfriend/girlfirend, and others are not convicted, tough line)

I think ultimately it's the understanding of how are bodies work. We are designed to be aroused and this arousal is very powerful and designed to propel us forward. That power alone should cause us to regard physical intimacy within the bounds of non-marital relationships with caution. The design of our physical response means that even such perhaps innocent behavior as kissing can cause us to want to go forward. That is why being alone with our boyfriends/girlfriends can be so dangerous.

BUt certainly, it's no sin to *enjoy* what you do with the opposite gender, it's how God designed you. And sex is not evil, within the boundary of marriage. Sex was designed by God for the enjoyment of a husband and wife. God desgined it and proclaimed it good. We ceratnly should be wary of our terms here, because we don't want to imply that sex cannot be enjoyed. (and yes, it releases endorphins and other neurotransmitters, good things, but exercise can also do this, as well as food)

What exactly is this imtimacy btw? there can also be intimacy between close friends, when they are real friends and talk about their secrets etc. Does what you meant mean the physical intimacy i.e. physical closeness one in another for example, sitting on each other, kissing etc or also the psychological closeness i.e. intimacy as friendship? Intimate friendship definitely is no sin if it is not about evil things, isnt it true? Even we are to be intimate with God.

And is ANY kind of such a relationship sinful? I mean, it's obvious that we dont have to marry the first person we go out with, and also that there will, most of the time, be some "stuff" before marriage. Today it doesnt happen that the first kissing or so is done after marriage. So then is every relationship sinful? And if you are below age of 18 - you then cant have a girlfriend/boyfriend? and is it a sin to want someone as our partner before we intend to have marriage with that individual? I heard from many people that kissing ourside of marriage and relationships are not sinful unless sex is present in any way or some really nasty stuff

And as for sex with the married partner, isnt it still sin when not used for reproduction? If contraception is used, its sinful. But what if they have sex without the meaning of having children? Then in case they want 1 kid, then that means they will have sex until they succeed, and then give up for their entire lives? They can still kiss and do all other things, but can they do sex without intent of having children?

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It's pretty simple. Sexual intercourse is the act Christians should abstain from prior to marriage. Sometimes the mere kiss leads to sex...this is normal. If one cannot control this urge to move naturally into the sex act, then kissing should be avoided IF you are wanting to avoid the sin of premarrital sex.

Thus some religious groups tend to frown on certain activities they deem as "dangerous" to leading one's thoughts into sex. They can certainly get overzealous in this respect.
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Sorry, repeated post....

madscientist wrote:What exactly is this imtimacy btw? there can also be intimacy between close friends, when they are real friends and talk about their secrets etc. Does what you meant mean the physical intimacy i.e. physical closeness one in another for example, sitting on each other, kissing etc or also the psychological closeness i.e. intimacy as friendship? Intimate friendship definitely is no sin if it is not about evil things, isnt it true? Even we are to be intimate with God.

Mainly I mean the physical intimacy. And obviously you could talk to 10 different pastors and perhaps find 10 different "lines" or boundaries beyond which would be sin. Some might tell you to avoid kissing, some would tell you to avoid petting/touching. I think we are always searching for the line but in reality that line should probably alwasy be more chaste than we should. Let's face it, we want to find that line so that we can go right up to that line as much as we can. But our bodies do not do well with this sort of temptation. Out bodies do not naturally like to be aroused and then shut down. Physically, sexual arousal is always meant to escalate to the sexual act and in a committed monogamous married relationship, this arousal is allowed free reign. But a relationship is also about caring for the other person, and a thoughtful person does not place the other partner in a situation of temptation. And really, ultimately, isn't this the ultimate test of a relationship? CAring and loving your partner so much that you will refuse to place them in a dangerous position, physically.

But I do believe that there can be thoughtlessness in a relationship that, because of our sinful hearts, can be a reflection of our selfishness. And this can be reflected in emotional intimacy just as much as physical intimacy. I see this very commonly in the teenage relationships (and in previous relationships of mine). Women can try to force an emotional intimacy on their boyfriends when the relationship isn't ready, when he isn't ready, when the commitment isn't there. We need to be careful to not bulldoze over the man and be thoughtless in our criticisms because he might not share so easily.

And men can sometimes play the emotional one-night stands. (and boy, this can be frustrating!!). Men can open up and be very intimate with their emotions and prayer requests and then clam up. Sometimes this can be simply because she was there and she provides an easy sounding board. But this plays havoc with womens emotions. Because in our mind, there is nothing more attractive and indicative of a man wanting a deeper relationship than a man who is willing to share emotions and be vulnerable and request prayer. And yet for a man that moment of intimacy can really simply have been that one right moment.

mad wrote: And is ANY kind of such a relationship sinful? I mean, it's obvious that we dont have to marry the first person we go out with, and also that there will, most of the time, be some "stuff" before marriage. Today it doesnt happen that the first kissing or so is done after marriage. So then is every relationship sinful? And if you are below age of 18 - you then cant have a girlfriend/boyfriend? and is it a sin to want someone as our partner before we intend to have marriage with that individual? I heard from many people that kissing ourside of marriage and relationships are not sinful unless sex is present in any way or some really nasty stuff

You will get different thoughts along the boyfriend/girlfriend department. Some CHristians do believe that instead of the dating environment we should be closer to courtship practices. I don't think dating has to be thrown away, but I *do* believe that we should be more careful with our hearts. Let's face it, anytime we get involved with another person, we are looking for a pseudo-marriage relationship. We are built for this intimacy but people can earn some pretty deep emotional scars from relationships. Like a broken bone or an injury, a broken relationship requires healing and I think a broken heart takes longer and recovers slower and carries more baggage. A broken bone heals and rebuild and reconstructs itself but the human psyche is a lot more permanent.

And usually, our first relationships are not the most mature, so it would be very easy to have the most damage in the time when we are most thoughtless in our relationships.

Age is irrelevant, although hopefully we do become more mature in our relationships as we age.

And perhaps you are approaching this as a guy (and I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be sterotypical here) but I wonder if guys recover from the loss of physical intimacy with a specific person. And guys don't realize that women and girls become terribly attached to the person they are physically intimate with (even without actual sex)

YOu must always be thoughtful of the other person and that selfishness is the sin here.

And as for sex with the married partner, isnt it still sin when not used for reproduction? If contraception is used, its sinful. But what if they have sex without the meaning of having children? Then in case they want 1 kid, then that means they will have sex until they succeed, and then give up for their entire lives? They can still kiss and do all other things, but can they do sex without intent of having children?

Read over the Song of SOlomon. Sex isn't simply for procreation. The Song of Solomon is a bit of an eye-opener, a beautiful repartee of sexual bed-talk. And even Paul advises couples to not refrain from each other and to come back to each other.

Very good, Zoegirl. Taking something as close to the line as possible is something that I have always lost at. Even if I was successful one time...it usually meant that it would be consumated at another time because of all of the sexual fuel that I put into it. Besides we may think that we are in control, but even the devil knows that is a lie and plays on it big time. As difficult as it is the best way is to block anything sexual, in a sensual way, from entering our minds and not giving the devil a foothold. I don't know about anybody else but I need very little help in falling into this chasm.

madscientist wrote:What exactly is this imtimacy btw? there can also be intimacy between close friends, when they are real friends and talk about their secrets etc. Does what you meant mean the physical intimacy i.e. physical closeness one in another for example, sitting on each other, kissing etc or also the psychological closeness i.e. intimacy as friendship? Intimate friendship definitely is no sin if it is not about evil things, isnt it true? Even we are to be intimate with God.

And is ANY kind of such a relationship sinful? I mean, it's obvious that we dont have to marry the first person we go out with, and also that there will, most of the time, be some "stuff" before marriage. Today it doesnt happen that the first kissing or so is done after marriage. So then is every relationship sinful? And if you are below age of 18 - you then cant have a girlfriend/boyfriend? and is it a sin to want someone as our partner before we intend to have marriage with that individual? I heard from many people that kissing ourside of marriage and relationships are not sinful unless sex is present in any way or some really nasty stuff

And as for sex with the married partner, isnt it still sin when not used for reproduction? If contraception is used, its sinful. But what if they have sex without the meaning of having children? Then in case they want 1 kid, then that means they will have sex until they succeed, and then give up for their entire lives? They can still kiss and do all other things, but can they do sex without intent of having children?

Sex was meant for marriage, so the husband and wife can enjoy one another physically. It isn't sin to have sex for other reasons than reproduction. If it was, God would have made us like the animals, where the female of the species come into heat for the sole reason for reproduction.

FFC wrote:Very good, Zoegirl. Taking something as close to the line as possible is something that I have always lost at. Even if I was successful one time...it usually meant that it would be consumated at another time because of all of the sexual fuel that I put into it. Besides we may think that we are in control, but even the devil knows that is a lie and plays on it big time. As difficult as it is the best way is to block anything sexual, in a sensual way, from entering our minds and not giving the devil a foothold. I don't know about anybody else but I need very little help in falling into this chasm.

Yeah, sometimes I think previous generations had it perfectly right to demand a chaperone for unmarried men and women. For them as much as for propriety.

Probably one of the most idiotic things any couple can do is be alone at night, especially late hours. There is something that happens to the brain the more tired we are that directly correlates to our idiocy