"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands." (Psalm 19:1)
https://discussions.godandscience.org/
You do realize that the verse you posted says that Enouch did NOT see death.1stjohn0666 wrote:Hebrews 11 records all the people of faith listed died. Hebrews 11:5,13,32,39,40. I see "all these died" "did not receive the promise" and "not made perfect"
So, when Moses and Elijah came to Jesus on the mountain, where did they come from?1stjohn0666 wrote:I see Hebrews 11:5 as the same instance of that as Phillip with the Eunuch. Moved from one place on Earth to another place on Earth. I do not believe that anybody preceded Jesus "to" heaven. Hebrews 11:13 says "these all died" it does not say "these all died except Enoch"
Please verify where in scripture is the word ‘photo prophecy’ is used and validated as an actual experience?1stjohn0666 wrote:What a divine thing to have happen, the image of those men certainly appeared. It was like a photo prophecy, like John in Revelation. Matt 17:1-9 is not proof texts that these people are alive enjoying the eternal bliss of heaven...yet. We should head over to verses in Matt 16:27,28. I ask you, Is the kingdom here now? Has Christ appeared with the angels already and we missed something? Has the dead already been raised? Rev 22:12, Rev 5:10, Col 3:4, 1 Peter 5:1,4. One needs to take very close attention to the words of Christ at the transfiguration Matt 17:9. "tell the "VISION" to no man". We have evidence that it is like John's "vision" in Revelation. A prophecy with your own eyes.
What the apostles saw were NOT the resurrected bodies of Moses and Elijah, but there spirits in a "corpreal from".1stjohn0666 wrote:What a divine thing to have happen, the image of those men certainly appeared. It was like a photo prophecy, like John in Revelation. Matt 17:1-9 is not proof texts that these people are alive enjoying the eternal bliss of heaven...yet. We should head over to verses in Matt 16:27,28. I ask you, Is the kingdom here now? Has Christ appeared with the angels already and we missed something? Has the dead already been raised? Rev 22:12, Rev 5:10, Col 3:4, 1 Peter 5:1,4. One needs to take very close attention to the words of Christ at the transfiguration Matt 17:9. "tell the "VISION" to no man". We have evidence that it is like John's "vision" in Revelation. A prophecy with your own eyes.
That is not what the bible teaches at all. You ignore bible verse that tell otherwise to support the way's group think...1stjohn0666 wrote:The transfiguration was the inauguration of the new covenant. When a person is dead they are really dead. If we are dead and either "go to" heaven or hell immediately after death... what is the need for a 2nd coming for the dead? What need is there for a resurrection? What need is there "to put on immortality" if you are already immortal to begin with? I believe that Moses and Elijah died, and are not enjoying some eternal bliss as "ghosts" The hope is to have a resurrection and eternal life and the established kingdom of God on the new Earth.
Have you read Revelation ??1stjohn0666 wrote:The transfiguration was the inauguration of the new covenant. When a person is dead they are really dead. If we are dead and either "go to" heaven or hell immediately after death... what is the need for a 2nd coming for the dead? What need is there for a resurrection? What need is there "to put on immortality" if you are already immortal to begin with? I believe that Moses and Elijah died, and are not enjoying some eternal bliss as "ghosts" The hope is to have a resurrection and eternal life and the established kingdom of God on the new Earth.
For starters please begin here and read this thread line from the forum that I recently Bumped to the front of the line...1stjohn0666 wrote:Enlighten me on those verses.
B. W. wrote:Jesus speaks on Hell in 46 verses Jenna and Nick. Bible does teach that there is life immediately after death.
Ezekiel 32:21-27 in this verse how can the dead speak if they are asleep or non-exist?
Jonah 2:2 how could he cry out if he non-existed?
Matthew 17:3 Moses and Elijah appeared ‘how could they have spoken if they were annihilated or were fast asleep?
Luke 16:22-30 ‘Abraham spoke to the rich man in hell. This does not sound like they were annihilated does it? Why would Jesus use a parable not based on solid truth and facts? - To do other wise for any other reason would have made Jesus sin.
Luke 23:43 ‘Jesus said what the thief on the cross? This also backs up Luke 16:22-31 as true. Jesus went to preach to the spirits in prison (1 Peter 3:19) and lead captivity captive (Eph 4:8). Jesus did not go to these places asleep in soul sleep or in an annihilated state. Please note that this thief went to Paradise with Jesus very much alive and not to sheol, hell, the pit.
Acts 7:59 - what did Stephen say? He did not cry out ‘'oh gave receive me' but rather cried out: Jesus receive my spirit!
Philippians 1:23 - Paul said it would be better to depart to be with the Lord. If this happened Paul expected to be with Christ and not soul-sleeping not annihilated but rather existing on after death residing with Jesus.
Job 26:5-6 speaks of the shades trembling in sheol. How could they be if they were annihilated? Read Job 26:4-6, ‘With whose help hast thou uttered words? And whose spirit [breath 5397] came forth from thee? 5 The shades [7496] tremble [2342-twist, whirl, dance, writhe, fear, tremble, travail, be in anguish, be pained] beneath the waters and the inhabitants thereof. 6 The nether-world is naked before Him, and Destruction [11-Abbadon - a place where ruination is brought out, or drawn out of a person ‘exposing a person as he/she really is - their moral rot slowly uncovered] hath no covering [3682-concealment, masking]. JPS
Numbers 16:29-33 speaks of Korah going down alive into hell.
Psalms 55:15, "(55:16) May He incite death against them, let them go down alive into the nether-world; for evil is in their dwelling, and within them." JPS ‘pretty plain language used here of both death and going alive into the nether world
Revelation 5:5 John speaks to an elder in heaven ‘this elder existed then and was not soul-sleeping nor was he annihilated.
In fact Annihilationism has it roots firmly entrenched in the philosophy of Atomist / materialist traditions like Epicurus. For example, Wikipedia stated that, Epicurus believed that death was not to be feared. When a man dies, he does not feel the pain of death because he no longer is and he therefore feels nothing. Therefore, as Epicurus famously said, "death is nothing to us." When we exist death is not, and when death exists we are not. All sensation and consciousness ends with death and therefore in death there is neither pleasure nor pain. The fear of death arises from the false belief that in death there is awareness.
Annihilationism's doctrine contorts scripture to redefine word meanings to bolster doctrine derived by men as the historical record proves.
When the followers of Korah went down alive into Hell, they went down alive. Jesus said that there was a certain rich man that died and went to hell, alive. When God causes mortal life to cease, it is for judgment. God knows these individuals have reached the point where they will never repent and are totally corrupt. This was found in them, not placed within by God. He knows all. He is just. They are sent to wait the final verdict in the depths of hell, alive.
He consigns such to the same place prepared for the devil and his angels, forever. Thus God is not a murderer as life continues after the mortal ceases. God can slay the mortal wicked justly without violation of life he gave and his word given in Genesis Chapter One. So in a sense when God slays the mortal wicked ‘these go into judgment. Before this time, God pleads and warns and exhorts people everywhere to repent through the message of the cross. He offers a way of escape as Jesus paid the penalty for the sin of us all. This is the way of God - as he is merciful and full of grace and truth.
The proof text scriptures that annihilationist use are contrary to Jesus' teaching on hell as well as the bible in both the Old and New Testament by distorting word meanings in the text to support ancient Greek philosophic atomist thought.
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B. W. wrote:Part One - Study from Psalms 88:
Introduction:
Do you work wonders for the dead? Do the departed (shades) rise up to praise you? Selah 11 Is your steadfast love declared in the grave, or your faithfulness in Abaddon? 12 Are your wonders known in the darkness, or your righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?” Psalms 88:10-12, ESV
Those that adhere to the doctrines of Annihilationism, Soul Sleep, and the various other forms of conditional immortality use bible verses from Psalms 88:10-12 as a proof text to bolster their assertions by simply connecting these to other verse such a Eccl 9:5-6, Isaiah 26:14, Isaiah 38:18 without regard to paying any attention to context of scripture, continuity with other parts of the bible, and common sense. In other words, one 'leads the witness' to reach a presupposed conclusion based on personal bias.
This is how error can become doctrine. For example, you can take the word translated 'beat' in our Bibles and connect all the passages that describe 'beat / beatings' and teach that is okay to beat up anybody perceived as a fool as a justifiable act of God and then turn it into dogma.
Actually, in fact Psalms 88:10-12, Eccl 9:5-6, Isaiah 26:14, Isaiah 38:18, do not back up such assertions that the dead cease to exist or support some form of soul sleepas we shall soon see. There are other parts neglected in these bible chapters that these dogmas have failed to mention as well as a continued denial of the continuity with other bible passages related to the theme of the subject matter on the hereafter.
Another important note is that all languages of the world are sloppy. One word can be used in a variety of ways. You cannot lock a single definition to a word as concrete and unchanging in all cases it is used. Those that adhere to the doctrines of Annihilationism, Soul Sleep, and the various other forms of conditional immortality dogma do just that. They define a word in concrete terms without regard to how it is used in each case where it is used.
For example, such words translated destruction, ruin, destroyed, annihilate, perish, are all cemented to mean non-existence and nothing else. Here is an example of how we use the word annihilate. The Denver Broncos annihilated the Kansas City Chief’s during a Monday night football game. Funny, the Chief’s same players still exist and they all will play another game with another team the following week. If the team was annihilated, then all players should have died during the game and now be buried in their grave if annihilation can only mean non-existences. You see how important it is to apply context to the meaning of a word?
To understand Psalms 88:10-12, one should first consider the writer’s frame of mind and also keep these verses in context with the rest of Psalm 88. Next, the context of Psalm 88 will also line up with other parts of the bible and thus paints a more accurate picture of what these passages mean (as we shall soon see) without any slight of hand.
In the next few post, I’ll point these out in a slow and methodical manner.