Evidence for God from Science

I think God likes it when we ask question to learn more about him and grow closer to him. On the other hand we have to be care not to be philosophizing for the sake of philosophizing like the Greeks were so proud of doing. I'm not saying you guys do that I'm throwing it out there.

What was wrong with Greeks' philosophies? That they were rather secular?
Ok so then if questioning God is not wrong.... then I hope He will soon reveal to me all those things - or some of them - that block me from knowing Him completely and being satisfied with how the things are currently. Because I am doing it to understand God more and feel satisfied and sure that He is the perfect One, Holy etc. We should at least know something and understand someone we love, shouldn't we??

Yes, we should! But I may have phrased my response wrong. Instead of questioning God's Word, we should question what man says that God's word is.

Mad wrote:What was wrong with Greeks' philosophies? That they were rather secular?
Ok so then if questioning God is not wrong.... then I hope He will soon reveal to me all those things - or some of them - that block me from knowing Him completely and being satisfied with how the things are currently. Because I am doing it to understand God more and feel satisfied and sure that He is the perfect One, Holy etc. We should at least know something and understand someone we love, shouldn't we??

I agree. My point was that we shouldn't question for the sake of questioning just to make yourself sound intellectual....but you don't sound like you are doing that, Mad. Your questions have a goal...to get to know God better.

Ha thanx FFC
Yeah i mean i do it to know God better as you said. I mean - thats pretty much the point of this forum, isnt it??
Some people may just philosophize for the sake of it but after all - dont they want to convince and bring arguments? For whatever reason they do it - whether believers or not, they are gonna argue what they believe...

MS,

Let me take a quick stab at your question. The overall difference in the OT and NT laws--why the OT seems harsher, if you will--has already been discussed, I think. In the OT, we are dealing with an elect nation. So we are looking at national laws, primarily. The OT Jew was related to God in two ways. Primarily, he was related to God the same way as we are: faith alone. If He believed in Yahweh, then He was justified, just as we are today. Secondarily, he was related to God through the government under which he lived. That government was the theocratic nation of Israel. Thus, the Laws.

Christians have a similar situation today. We are related to God primarily through faith alone in Christ alone. By this, we are justified, just as they were. Secondarily, we are related to God through Christ's Kingdom, which exists in something of a spiritual form today, but not it the governmental way in will in the future. The Law we have to keep, then, is not a political law so much as it is a practical, spiritual law, namely, Love one another. To the extent we do this (that is, abiding in Christ), we are, like the OT Jew, in proper fellowship with God.

Regarding the OT situation of the Jews possessing the land of Canaan and destroying everyone that they fought against, you have to understand that the Canaanites had been given some four hundred years to repent (Gen 15:16). God used Israel, then, to judge that particularly wicked nation (Compare this with the Ninevites. Jonah preached to them, and they did repent, and thus, they were spared.).

Just keep the difference in the political side of God's kingdom and the spiritual side of God's kingdom in your mind, and many of these ideas resolve themselves. There will be a political kingdom again in the future, and I assure you, it will be every much as "harsh" as the OT Kingdom was. The only difference will be that we will be able to live in it because we will have regenerate natures and regenerate bodies. Whereas the OT Jews could not perfectly keep the Law because of our sin nature, when we are raised from the dead to live with Christ forever in the New Earth, they, and we with them, will be able to keep that perfect law, and thus, our relationship with God will be perfect and everlasting.

thanks for your response, but still kinda confsued . Whats this politics? The law? Wasnt it given by God? And the government - who were they? Wasnt God their ruler? And as for the other nations - did they even know who God is? Were they given chances and were they shown all the rules as the Israelites were?
As for the repention - OK if one nation was different for example, but was the entire nation spared, and in the other nations - entire nation killed? Did this depend on each of the individuals or rather on the decision of a few indivuduals and then rest agreed? This is the thing - they acted as a nation rather than individuals, and we cannot choose where we belong. So if we are kinda "lucky" to live where we do, and are with a few individuals who decide as a whole nation - e.g. the ruler or king, as with the other nations, then we are spared - or unlucky when we are not - but isnt this rather due to situation than individual choice? We are judged upon who we are as a "nation" and depending on others as well?
And what is this politics among the spiritual world? The laws and all that?
So overall - no such a big difference between OT and NT then?

The politics I was talking about was just a reference to a literal nation with actual laws. When we talk about the political kingdom of God, we mean the Kingdom of God here on earth, enforced via human administration. In this sense, it is a kingdom just as America, Britain, France, or Switzerland are all kingdoms.

Now, in the OT, there was a political kingdom of God: Israel. She was a theocracy. She had a human government that was ultimately headed by God. Ultimately, she became more secular in her actual government when she bought into the monarchy, but that wasn't the way it was originally set up (think of the time of the judges), but all that goes further than we need to get into. All I need you to see now is that OT Israel was literal government with literal laws that was ultimately headed by God Himself.

Christians, though, are not under any such theocracy. The Kingdom of God is still present, but not in a political form (contrary to Catholicism and amillennialism in general). We live in a spiritual form of the Kingdom, meaning that we still have divine laws to obey, but they are administered to us individually through our relationship to God in Christ, rather than via an actual establishment of Law. This is what Paul calls "The Law of Christ," or what James calls "The Royal Law."

In the future, we will again--all of us, from Jew to Christian--be under a political Kingdom of God. Jesus Christ Himself will return and establish His literal nation, which will be a theocracy.

If you keep that difference in mind, then the OT and NT differences resolve themselves fairly easily. In OT times, God was primarily dealing with nations, whereas in the NT, God is dealing with individuals. But you can still see the same general principles at work. In the OT, Nineveh was spared when it repented, whereas Israel, not repenting, was destroyed. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed when they proved their wickedness, as were the Canaanites, whereas Israel was restored when she returned to God. This isn't to say that Israel was on exactly the same level as everyone else. Do remember that she was a special and chosen nation (and she still is), but the general principles are still universal. Likewise, in the NT, consider Ananias and Sapphira, both struck dead by God for lying to the Holy Spirit, or consider the seven churches addressed in the Revelation. Jesus threatened to destroy those churches that did not repent of their sins, just as He threated to destroy to Corinthian church if they did not repent. Against this, those individuals who did turn from their sins were saved from the judgment of God.

So, in answer to your question, the differences between the OT and NT demonstrations of God's wrath, while glaring on the surface, are all absolutely consistent. If you really study this issue, you'll find the same patience, mercy, and grace in the OT you find in the NT, just as you'll find the same wrath and punishment in the NT that we see displayed in the OT.

Hope that helps.

Jac3510,

Great post by the way. I would like to add a few things. I hope they do not muddy the waters.

When God told Abraham his descendants would sojourn in Egypt for 400 years and told him of the promised land that gave Satan 400 years to populate Canaan with the worst of mankind and the best of evil. Viewed in this light the Hebrews were destroying Satan's army.

The shedding of innocent blood is a foreshadow of the future event of Christ coming to earth. The Jews were performing a ritual in which their actions acted out the drama of the innocent Christ dying for the sins of man. I do believe we will again start the sacrafices when the Temple is rebuilt. This I believe is to commemorate the event of Christ dying on the cross.

Thanks for your replies... made it clearer kinda but raised more questions! So then the main difference is that whilst it was with a whole nation, it will be rather as individuals later?
Still dont know why is it significant whether the new Kingdom will be a theocracy or not, and what politics will there be. Will we have to obey any "laws"? Wont be completely free from any laws and corruption such as sin?

frankbaginski wrote:When God told Abraham his descendants would sojourn in Egypt for 400 years and told him of the promised land that gave Satan 400 years to populate Canaan with the worst of mankind and the best of evil. Viewed in this light the Hebrews were destroying Satan's army.

Aha yea. But the canaanites still had free will didnt they? and were each of them, every single man and woman and child EVIL? This then gives two more questions:
1. If no then why did all of them have to die?
2. if yes wasnt it more due to the fact that man becomes what the society around him is; i.e. that all canaan was corrupt so naturally anyone born there would become corrupt in his early years of life without having any control over it and then just doing what he had learned subconsciously? Were these people ever revealed the nature of God, His will and love and laws, like the Israelites?

Then also I read further in Deuteronomy, and again it was about some laws etc. As an example, if a son was disobedient he was to be led to the people (not reading in English, so sorry for any translation errors) and then stoned to death. Similar with others. If they did someting, they were to be "cursed" by God. Also, it often comes that such things were to be done to get rid of the evil from Israel. But the act of stoning someone to death seems rather evil to me, moreover considering the fact it was given by God, INFINITE LOVE and MERCY. Why didnt God say "make him have a sacrifice, and pray for him to be better, God will forgive him etc" but take him out and kill him? Did it also mean that if someone was to be killed he went directly to hell?
The difference I am talking about is that, fortunately, today you wont kill the person who does it; rather, we give them time to repent. Prison, punishment etc but we tend to FORGIVE and LOVE OUR ENEMIES. Jesus teaches us to love our enemies. However, in OT they were to kill and curse all of those whose ruler didnt want let them pass. Decision of 1 person!! And whole nation to suffer...
So this seems a harsh contradiction. Moreover, we must consider that it is the same God, described as loving and merciful. If such a person can repent (i.e. i can kill 150 people, repent and go to heaven) but back then i was to be stoned and probably hated by the Israelites and God. Now hatred is a sin, and if we are to love our enemies, would not it be nicer and more loving to forgive and give another chance to such individuals who broke the laws?
Sorry if it is annoying, but the more I read the Bible the more confused and frustrated I become with they way things were/are. I cant imagine myself having to kill my brother, or cut a woman's hand, or not being able to marry someone just because she is of a different NATION than I am. Moreover, doesnt it say in the Bible that God treats all people EQUALLY and that NATION doesnt really have a meaning? I heard it in church even yesterday... So does God treat people accordingly to NATION or EQUALLY?
(We must not forget we are born where we are and cannot choose our nature, nor our environment, nor our place of birth or nation or anything like that )

Hey sorry here am I asking again... had a long post before, but unfortunately no1 was able to reply and so i ask something more again. Well i read Bible further; it talked about Israelites being supreme and killing off all other nations. Now that seems more cruel to me. It says they had other gods and so on. Now - why would God want Israelites to "curse" them all and kill them in a cruel way? Why did our God want them to wage wars against them? Because they were evil? If so, whose fault was it? If result of nurture as passing from generation to generation... why slay all children? Does then God love everyone equally? Is not an Israelite or some Canaanite the same in God's eyes? We are made in His image... why did they have to die because the elect were coming? They could have lived in peace and harmony, had God willed it. As nothing is impossible for God - if he wished so, it could have happened.
Instead, it says God hardened the kings' hearts. So according to one man's decision - which even was not really his, the entire town/city/village had to be burned down and everyone killed. Now if God is merciful and just how could He have allowed this? And does it mean they would end up in hell due to this? Or was it just an "earthly" curse? Even so it seems incomprehensible to me. Some part of me wants to believe... cognitive dissonance. I know God is just and merciful (for the Bible tells me so) but Bible also tells me of the atrocities Israelites did in God's name! That is shocking. If God said "thou shalt not kill" but then commanded his elect to go and slay all people - how can these two not be contradictions? If murder is a sin (except for self defense) - going to a village/city and slaying everyone is nothing else but murder in my eyes. Now what if I for some reason God wants me to kill someone? I kill an enemy, and say I felt it was God's will it happened... would it b any different from what had happened back then? And yes once I would kill him it would be God's will as He would have allowed it... or am I mistaking>

Now question is - DOES God love everyone? All of His creations? And equally? If yes - why and how could He allow this? It is much like evil in world nowadays... we say it is the result of man's fault, and that God cannot be held accountable. But if God allows it, instead of bringing peace to people... if He wanted to, He could. All His will. And if God decides to harden someone's hearts - imagine people like Hitler or Stalin... then who is held accountable? What if God also used them to display His power on them? Is it true that if God wished them to be good they would be, and if God wished e.g. Noah to be evil he would have been?
Moreover, Israelites if i remember well were also disloyal to God and then He punished them. So if He knew they would be sinful and so why did He bother with them and do all He had done? And also - WHY did they turn out to be as they did? REsult of free will? Predestination? That is the question. They were a stubborn nation, but let's imagine He did this with someone else... e.g. people nowadays. Would we have obeyed God any differently than they had? Maybe not, or yes, depending on the circumstances. And did God allow them to become corrupt (as well as other nations) or was it His direct will for it to be so?

Sorry if I may sound annoying, but as I may have said earlier - it is hindering my will to read Bible further, and to think about this. Cognitive dissonance I guess it's called - I cannot believe both for God to be merciful and just and these things. So it is hindering me to be a committed believer and so. I hope Holy Spirit makes me understant but I don't know why I may be the only one struggling with this here - maybe to bring God glory? Who knows... But please help if you can, how you see and interpret these 2 strikingly contradicting images.

Hi Mad, glad to see you back... You are asking a multitude of questions here, I shall try to answer a few of them...

madscientist wrote:Hey sorry here am I asking again... had a long post before, but unfortunately no1 was able to reply and so i ask something more again. Well i read Bible further; it talked about Israelites being supreme and killing off all other nations. Now that seems more cruel to me. It says they had other gods and so on. Now - why would God want Israelites to "curse" them all and kill them in a cruel way? Why did our God want them to wage wars against them? Because they were evil? If so, whose fault was it? If result of nurture as passing from generation to generation... why slay all children? Does then God love everyone equally? Is not an Israelite or some Canaanite the same in God's eyes? We are made in His image... why did they have to die because the elect were coming? They could have lived in peace and harmony, had God willed it. As nothing is impossible for God - if he wished so, it could have happened.

First up, these verses from Deuteronomy are actually defensive in nature not offensive.. These areas of the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites were morally corrupt and would have destroyed the Israelis if left alive. God did not set the Israelis to conquer other nations this way. If you will notice, he didn't say now after that go into Asia, Europe, and Africa and take those ones out too. There has always been a buffer zone around the country of Israel because this land was promised to them by God. In order to keep the borders clean from attack and moral corruption they had to defend themselves.. The creation of a buffer zone...

This brings another question into the fold. Are all wars bad? I tend to think so, but then again wars like WWII may have been necessary (no offense to you). In these wars many people were killed, but sometimes that is the sacrifice for freedom.

This discussion might help out as well...

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... =3&t=32860

madscientist wrote:Instead, it says God hardened the kings' hearts. So according to one man's decision - which even was not really his, the entire town/city/village had to be burned down and everyone killed. Now if God is merciful and just how could He have allowed this? And does it mean they would end up in hell due to this? Or was it just an "earthly" curse? Even so it seems incomprehensible to me. Some part of me wants to believe... cognitive dissonance. I know God is just and merciful (for the Bible tells me so) but Bible also tells me of the atrocities Israelites did in God's name! That is shocking. If God said "thou shalt not kill" but then commanded his elect to go and slay all people - how can these two not be contradictions? If murder is a sin (except for self defense) - going to a village/city and slaying everyone is nothing else but murder in my eyes. Now what if I for some reason God wants me to kill someone? I kill an enemy, and say I felt it was God's will it happened... would it b any different from what had happened back then? And yes once I would kill him it would be God's will as He would have allowed it... or am I mistaking>

"God did not harden Pharaoh's heart contrary to Pharaoh's own free choice. The Scripture makes it very clear that Pharaoh hardened his own heart. It declares that Pharaoh's heart "grew hard" (Ex. 7: 13), that Pharaoh "hardened his heart" (Ex. 8: 15), and that "Pharaoh's heart grew hard" the more God worked on it (Ex. 8:19)."

madscientist wrote:Now question is - DOES God love everyone? All of His creations? And equally? If yes - why and how could He allow this? It is much like evil in world nowadays... we say it is the result of man's fault, and that God cannot be held accountable. But if God allows it, instead of bringing peace to people... if He wanted to, He could. All His will. And if God decides to harden someone's hearts - imagine people like Hitler or Stalin... then who is held accountable? What if God also used them to display His power on them? Is it true that if God wished them to be good they would be, and if God wished e.g. Noah to be evil he would have been?
Moreover, Israelites if i remember well were also disloyal to God and then He punished them. So if He knew they would be sinful and so why did He bother with them and do all He had done? And also - WHY did they turn out to be as they did? REsult of free will? Predestination? That is the question. They were a stubborn nation, but let's imagine He did this with someone else... e.g. people nowadays. Would we have obeyed God any differently than they had? Maybe not, or yes, depending on the circumstances. And did God allow them to become corrupt (as well as other nations) or was it His direct will for it to be so?

I believe that God does love everyone.. He might not like the things we do, but ultimately I think he loves everyone the same. Ephesians 6:9. And the proof of this is our free will to do the same...

madscientist wrote:Sorry if I may sound annoying, but as I may have said earlier - it is hindering my will to read Bible further, and to think about this. Cognitive dissonance I guess it's called - I cannot believe both for God to be merciful and just and these things. So it is hindering me to be a committed believer and so. I hope Holy Spirit makes me understant but I don't know why I may be the only one struggling with this here - maybe to bring God glory? Who knows... But please help if you can, how you see and interpret these 2 strikingly contradicting images.

No problem mad, I think your questions are legitimate..

Gman wrote: "God did not harden Pharaoh's heart contrary to Pharaoh's own free choice. The Scripture makes it very clear that Pharaoh hardened his own heart. It declares that Pharaoh's heart "grew hard" (Ex. 7: 13), that Pharaoh "hardened his heart" (Ex. 8: 15), and that "Pharaoh's heart grew hard" the more God worked on it (Ex. 8:19)."

Well this is another good point. Does not Pharaoh hardening his own heart mean God hardening it? The fact that "God worked on it" means it was getting hard because God wanted it and He hardened it. Saying it was becoming hard means it is because God made it - it's also said somewhere else in Bible. Not according to his own choice? Well... if God also changed his will to be so - meaning he hardened his heart... it's paradoxical though. Because in order for God to harden his heart he must have changed his will - so then is it due to his [own] will or due to will which was put to him by will of God? For example, if I now ask God to harden my heart and be against Him (not that I have any intention of doing it! ) then most probably I would be against God... because the fact that I wished it meant I make myself against Him even if I don't ask Him - and moreover, it is psychology of conditioning myself to be against God... but was pharaoh case such?

Gman wrote: I believe that God does love everyone.. He might not like the things we do, but ultimately I think he loves everyone the same.

But then... why is it that some have - or seem to have more choices and a greater possibility of being with God? Again, I mean stuff like predestination, environment etc. Going here again but... yeah. Consider - e.g. pharaoh. He had the power to be evil etc. Someone who dies at the age of 1 might have grown to be the biggest hater of God; he just was not given the chance. And also - if God loves us all equally - then why some are elect to be saved and some are not? Or does this mean election depends on our choice? For example Israel was an elect nation - not to say that everyone was good; yes they sinned - but the other nations - were they ALL bad one to one, including children? Now if God loves us all equally why did not He give at least the children to flee from corruption and live with israelites but instead were to be slain? Let's imagine I were one of them... all of a sudden a nation comes and loots my town and I have not done anything bad... should I be thinking I am loved the same as those who had the power to kill everyone and who will soon be continuing? I would feel deceived that I also were not one of the elect and could not take part... Fortunately, I am not a children about to be killed by israelites let's just hope But also those who never have a chance to hear about Christ - if God loves everyone equally then should not everyone have equal chance?

madscientist wrote:

Gman wrote: "God did not harden Pharaoh's heart contrary to Pharaoh's own free choice. The Scripture makes it very clear that Pharaoh hardened his own heart. It declares that Pharaoh's heart "grew hard" (Ex. 7: 13), that Pharaoh "hardened his heart" (Ex. 8: 15), and that "Pharaoh's heart grew hard" the more God worked on it (Ex. 8:19)."

Well this is another good point. Does not Pharaoh hardening his own heart mean God hardening it? The fact that "God worked on it" means it was getting hard because God wanted it and He hardened it. Saying it was becoming hard means it is because God made it - it's also said somewhere else in Bible. Not according to his own choice? Well... if God also changed his will to be so - meaning he hardened his heart... it's paradoxical though. Because in order for God to harden his heart he must have changed his will - so then is it due to his [own] will or due to will which was put to him by will of God? For example, if I now ask God to harden my heart and be against Him (not that I have any intention of doing it! ) then most probably I would be against God... because the fact that I wished it meant I make myself against Him even if I don't ask Him - and moreover, it is psychology of conditioning myself to be against God... but was pharaoh case such?

It is not really paradoxical. For example, if the Sun hardens clay is the Sun enforcing its will upon the clay, or is the nature of the clay simply reacting to the heat of the Sun? Similarly, I see such was likely the case with God and the hardening of Pharaoh's heart.

madscientist wrote:Well this is another good point. Does not Pharaoh hardening his own heart mean God hardening it? The fact that "God worked on it" means it was getting hard because God wanted it and He hardened it. Saying it was becoming hard means it is because God made it - it's also said somewhere else in Bible. Not according to his own choice? Well... if God also changed his will to be so - meaning he hardened his heart... it's paradoxical though. Because in order for God to harden his heart he must have changed his will - so then is it due to his [own] will or due to will which was put to him by will of God? For example, if I now ask God to harden my heart and be against Him (not that I have any intention of doing it! ) then most probably I would be against God... because the fact that I wished it meant I make myself against Him even if I don't ask Him - and moreover, it is psychology of conditioning myself to be against God... but was pharaoh case such?

I don't think it was God's will to harden Pharaoh's heart. God was giving Pharaoh choices and Pharaoh chose against God. Much like telling someone that they will hit a wall if they don't turn the steering wheel of their car. If I decided to ignore detour signs on an impending doom, who's fault is it?

madscientist wrote:But then... why is it that some have - or seem to have more choices and a greater possibility of being with God? Again, I mean stuff like predestination, environment etc. Going here again but... yeah. Consider - e.g. pharaoh. He had the power to be evil etc. Someone who dies at the age of 1 might have grown to be the biggest hater of God; he just was not given the chance. And also - if God loves us all equally - then why some are elect to be saved and some are not? Or does this mean election depends on our choice? For example Israel was an elect nation - not to say that everyone was good; yes they sinned - but the other nations - were they ALL bad one to one, including children? Now if God loves us all equally why did not He give at least the children to flee from corruption and live with israelites but instead were to be slain? Let's imagine I were one of them... all of a sudden a nation comes and loots my town and I have not done anything bad... should I be thinking I am loved the same as those who had the power to kill everyone and who will soon be continuing? I would feel deceived that I also were not one of the elect and could not take part... Fortunately, I am not a children about to be killed by israelites let's just hope But also those who never have a chance to hear about Christ - if God loves everyone equally then should not everyone have equal chance?

I would guess that those are the consequences of living in a fallen world... I think we all have an equal chance, but living in a fallen world (sinful) also has it's limitations.