Evidence for God from Science

Lizard Man wrote:Why are you so afraid of Muslims asking questions or defending their positions? If they feel that something is in error, why shouldn't they be able to have the chance to point it out? (of course you could close an argument by saying that "nothing" is in error, but that really smothers the chance of being open and objective, doesn't it? :p) I remember Richard criticizing Mormons for being hostile towards investigation of their doctrines - an odd parallel to the present situation we face.

Common logic discloses that if you are unwilling to defend a claim or can't do so, then don't make it. That goes for everything - from posting articles with questionable sources to making statements against other faiths and referring to them a "loathsome" or "hungry."

Regardless, if you don't feel comfortable with discussing Islam on the board simply for policy's sake, then that settles it. I do, however, invite everybody with questions or comments concerning Islam to just drop a note in my PM box or message me on AOL. All questions are welcome, as long as they aren't something completely ignorant like "do you know where I can buy a scarf for my head," or "do camels really keep sand inside their lumps?"

Until then, peace!

Lizard Man,

That's a little disingenuous of you to say we're afraid of debating Moslems knowing full well what the board purpose is. This board was created specifically for Christians and for honest seekers. What it is not for is to debate other religions ad nauseum. It is not a matter of being 'comfortable' or not. As Judah stated, it is simply a matter of following the guidelines set forth by the owner of this site.

Considering, however, that there has been some interaction with several members regarding Islam, and if your purpose for discussion is within the board purpose, i.e. as an honest seeker into christianity, then I suggest creating another thread. Please let us know if you need any posts split from here. If this is not agreeable to you, then PMing members or a different board might be more suitable.

God bless,

John.

Lizard Man wrote:Why are you so afraid of Muslims asking questions or defending their positions? If they feel that something is in error, why shouldn't they be able to have the chance to point it out? (of course you could close an argument by saying that "nothing" is in error, but that really smothers the chance of being open and objective, doesn't it? :p) I remember Richard criticizing Mormons for being hostile towards investigation of their doctrines - an odd parallel to the present situation we face.

Common logic discloses that if you are unwilling to defend a claim or can't do so, then don't make it. That goes for everything - from posting articles with questionable sources to making statements against other faiths and referring to them a "loathsome" or "hungry."

Regardless, if you don't feel comfortable with discussing Islam on the board simply for policy's sake, then that settles it. I do, however, invite everybody with questions or comments concerning Islam to just drop a note in my PM box or message me on AOL. All questions are welcome, as long as they aren't something completely ignorant like "do you know where I can buy a scarf for my head," or "do camels really keep sand inside their lumps?"

Until then, peace!

As a matter of fact I am afraid of Muslims voicing there opinions:
A Nun slaughtered, churches burn, people killed and the West must always acquiesces to Muslim's being offend and apologies for thier actions: sorry this is bunk.

Excuse me, I work in the criminal Justice field and this type of behavior is manipulative as it always looks for new methods to subvert people to bend toward their wills. This is the definition of the criminal mind. Until Muslim countries open their doors to all faiths in their countries on an equal footing as Islam then we can have real honest dialog. Until then, don't tell me you are offended as I am really offend by the whole Muslim faith and their criminal reactions at being offended used to silence, manipulate, and intimidate into submission to Islam's will.

Until Peace? Only when Islam rules the world right?

Sorry do not buy it, nor can I trust the Islamic faith. If this offends you - sorry. Until I see Islam calm down and open their doors to all faiths inside of each Muslim country on equal footing, protection, without restrictions, and sanctions and honored on the same level as Islam - then I would believe what you say. Until then - not.
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Right on, B.W.
I agree with you totally.

This latest piece of news really saddens me. I thought the Pope was going to stand up to the Muslim outrage but it would seem that he is appeasing them too. That is folly. In a Muslim's eyes, appeasement just proves our weakness and makes them come on all the stronger.

Vatican 'clarifies' Pope speech

The Vatican has released a final version of an address by Pope Benedict XVI in Germany last month, which angered Muslims around the world.
In the original speech, the Pope quoted a 14th Century Christian emperor who said the Prophet Mohammed had brought only "evil and inhuman" things.

The passage has been amended and a footnote added asserting the Pope's respect for a "great religion".

- - - -

The Pope has reiterated in public that he regrets the offence caused, expressing "deep respect" for Islam.

Well, I would like to know exactly how Pope Benedict defines great in this context.
And deep respect ?????

How can anyone have deep respect for a false relgion, for a totalitarian ideology that comes cloaked as a religion, that is so violent and intolerant and regressive, that misappropriates Judaism and Christianity and goes so far off the rails?

OK, that's a rhetorical question. I am just voicing my agony over the Pope's latest action on this. He must have been put under considerable pressure and surely weighed up the pros and cons. I bet he didn't want anymore nuns killed, churches burnt down and other people harmed. At least he still has a strong voice for demanding reciprocity.

Judah wrote:Right on, B.W.
I agree with you totally.

This latest piece of news really saddens me. I thought the Pope was going to stand up to the Muslim outrage but it would seem that he is appeasing them too. That is folly. In a Muslim's eyes, appeasement just proves our weakness and makes them come on all the stronger.

Vatican 'clarifies' Pope speech

The Vatican has released a final version of an address by Pope Benedict XVI in Germany last month, which angered Muslims around the world.
In the original speech, the Pope quoted a 14th Century Christian emperor who said the Prophet Mohammed had brought only "evil and inhuman" things.

The passage has been amended and a footnote added asserting the Pope's respect for a "great religion".

- - - -

The Pope has reiterated in public that he regrets the offence caused, expressing "deep respect" for Islam.

Well, I would like to know exactly how Pope Benedict defines great in this context.
And deep respect ?????

How can anyone have deep respect for a false religion, for a totalitarian ideology that comes cloaked as a religion, that is so violent and intolerant and regressive, that misappropriates Judaism and Christianity and goes so far off the rails?

OK, that's a rhetorical question. I am just voicing my agony over the Pope's latest action on this. He must have been put under considerable pressure and surely weighed up the pros and cons. I bet he didn't want anymore nuns killed, churches burnt down and other people harmed. At least he still has a strong voice for demanding reciprocity.

I read the article and I don't see anywhere that the pope is 'apologizing' as the Islamic world is demanding. He simply clarified that the quotes were not his, which most protestors seemed to have attributed to him. No matter how bold he is though, in essence his role as a religious leader cannot be to entice hatred and division but to foster dialogue and understanding among all religions. (not that I'm defending the pope or anything ).

B. W. wrote:Until then, don't tell me you are offended as I am really offend by the whole Muslim faith and their criminal reactions at being offended used to silence, manipulate, and intimidate into submission to Islam's will.

I have to ask, what have you done to keep Christian extremist groups like the KKK or the Aryan Nations from commiting hate crimes? Until you can brag about all of Christianity keeping its fringe in check, please don't hold Muslims to such a standard.

Byblos wrote:I read the article and I don't see anywhere that the pope is 'apologizing' as the Islamic world is demanding. He simply clarified that the quotes were not his, which most protestors seemed to have attributed to him. No matter how bold he is though, in essence his role as a religious leader cannot be to entice hatred and division but to foster dialogue and understanding among all religions. (not that I'm defending the pope or anything ).

Not, it is not "apologizing" as was demanded, but he reportedly said that the Emperor had been too harsh with the words he had used back then.

This is what I was trying to post last night when locked out:

Oh-oh, in another report Pope Benedict is quoted as follows:

"I would like today to stress my total and profound respect for all Muslims," the Pope said in the speech.

Having respect for Muslims and having respect for Islam is not quite the same thing.
I can have respect for people but still hate their religion.

So I wonder what he really did say? One or other, or both?
And who completely trusts the Fourth Estate anyway?

Ah, here is a portion of his address:

In this particular context, I should like to reiterate today all the esteem and the profound respect that I have for Muslim believers, calling to mind the words of the Second Vatican Council which for the Catholic Church are the Magna Carta of Muslim-Christian dialogue:

"The Church looks upon Muslims with respect. They worship the one God living and subsistent, merciful and almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to humanity and to whose decrees, even the hidden ones, they seek to submit themselves whole-heartedly, just as Abraham, to whom the Islamic faith readily relates itself, submitted to God" (Declaration Nostra Aetate, 3).

Placing myself firmly within this perspective, I have had occasion, since the very beginning of my pontificate, to express my wish to continue establishing bridges of friendship with the adherents of all religions, showing particular appreciation for the growth of dialogue between Muslims and Christians (cf. Address to the Delegates of Other Churches and Ecclesial Communities and of Other Religious Traditions, 25 April 2005).

It seems that he is still referencing Declaration Nostra Aetate, 3 which equates Yahweh and Allah. They are not one and the same. Only at the beginning (after the pre-Islamic moon god was stripped of his 3 daughters and merged with what Mohammad knew of Yahweh) was there any kind of likeness, but Allah took off on a totally different path not long after that.

But I will stop. I'm sure I must be boring you all to tears since I have rabbited on about this so often before.

Lizard Man wrote:

B. W. wrote:Until then, don't tell me you are offended as I am really offend by the whole Muslim faith and their criminal reactions at being offended used to silence, manipulate, and intimidate into submission to Islam's will.

I have to ask, what have you done to keep Christian extremist groups like the KKK or the Aryan Nations from commiting hate crimes? Until you can brag about all of Christianity keeping its fringe in check, please don't hold Muslims to such a standard.

Let's compare apples with apples.

It is the Qur'an that tells - yes, in actual directions - Muslims to behave in this appalling way.
It is not the Bible that tells the KKK or the Aryan Nations to commit hate crimes.
The KKK and Aryan Nations are absolutely not acting according to the message of Jesus Christ, but Muslims absolutely are acting according to the Qur'anic message of Mohammad reportedly from Allah.

What you call Christianity's fringe is a category of people not acting according to the dictates of Biblical Christianity.
But regardless of that, you compare them to the mainstream of Islam who are acting according to the dictates of the Qur'an.

Lizard Man wrote:

B. W. wrote:Until then, don't tell me you are offended as I am really offend by the whole Muslim faith and their criminal reactions at being offended used to silence, manipulate, and intimidate into submission to Islam's will.

I have to ask, what have you done to keep Christian extremist groups like the KKK or the Aryan Nations from commiting hate crimes? Until you can brag about all of Christianity keeping its fringe in check, please don't hold Muslims to such a standard.

With all respect Lizardman, we're not speaking of "fringe" groups in terms of Islam these days.

I actually have reported activities of so-called hate groups and have been ative in other contexts with reporting child abuse, spousal abuse etc. Where I have opportunity.

The issue I have with Islam as a movement, and there have been issues in history with Christian groups is:

1. "Christian groups" that practise such things as are taking place in Islam today do so in violation of their scriptures. Islam has no such restraints upon their followers to love their enemies. Those who are "moderate" muslims can not point to anywhere in the Quran or Surah's where the Wahabbi's for instance, are violating their beliefs. Therefore they tolerate them to a far greater extent.

2. In terms of a percentage of their groups, Militant Islam is very much higher than the fringes which attempt to co-opt Christian teaching to support their hate and killing. Most of the wars taking place in the world today such as in the Sudan, Afghanistan, Indonesia, the Baltics, Chechnya etc are direct results of Islam agression and declared Jihad. Islamic theocracies are in place in the world today and combine religious power with secular power, in which Islam is the state religion, any who convert to another religion are put to death and practices such as slavery, forcible rape and concubinism very prevelent.

Can you point to contemporary issues such as this in Christianity currently? Where Christianity was claimed to protect these practices in Christian history you can point as well to Christians who put their lives at risk and fought against things like slavery or the holocaust.

Where are their counterparts today in Islam? Well? Where are they?

It's a very weak argument to just flippantly equate fundamental extremism in Islam with that in Christianity or any other group. The issue is what the movement as a whole does with it.

I have no doubt that there are many moderate Muslims who look at what is happening and do not rejoice. However, neither do they stand against and seek to stop it either. Certainly there is reason for them not to in terms of dear for their own lives.

THE KEY ISSUE IN MY MIND, EXPERIENCE, OBSERVATION AND STUDY IS THAT THEY DO NOT DO SO BECAUSE THE QURAN DOES NOT TEACH THAT THEY SHOULD RESIST MILITANT ISLAM.

If there is anything that Islam should be judged by in this regard it is the Quran itself. Where does it teach to love one's neighbors? Where does it teach restraint in killing "infidels" and "strangers."

It doesn't.

Lizard Man wrote:

B. W. wrote:Until then, don't tell me you are offended as I am really offend by the whole Muslim faith and their criminal reactions at being offended used to silence, manipulate, and intimidate into submission to Islam's will.

I have to ask, what have you done to keep Christian extremist groups like the KKK or the Aryan Nations from commiting hate crimes? Until you can brag about all of Christianity keeping its fringe in check, please don't hold Muslims to such a standard.

That's a good question Lizard... Well for one thing these groups are protected under our constitution. Remember the separation between church and state?

Also these groups are heavily despised by mainstream Christianity.. Whenever groups like the KKK have their public rallies, just watch the other opposing rallies on the other side..

Also just google the number of opposing Christian groups against these "so called" Christian extremists...

Let's not forget either what happened to the Afghan man "Abdul Rahman" who was threatened with execution because he converted from Islam to Christianity..

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/0 ... n.convert/

He nearly escaped with his life...

Gman wrote:Let's not forget either what happened to the Afghan man "Abdul Rahman" who was threatened with execution because he converted from Islam to Christianity..

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/0 ... n.convert/

He nearly escaped with his life...

He's but one example.

Execution for apostacy is common in many Islam countries.

Gman wrote:

Lizard Man wrote:

B. W. wrote:Until then, don't tell me you are offended as I am really offend by the whole Muslim faith and their criminal reactions at being offended used to silence, manipulate, and intimidate into submission to Islam's will.

I have to ask, what have you done to keep Christian extremist groups like the KKK or the Aryan Nations from commiting hate crimes? Until you can brag about all of Christianity keeping its fringe in check, please don't hold Muslims to such a standard.

That's a good question Lizard... Well for one thing these groups are protected under our constitution. Remember the separation between church and state?

Also these groups are heavily despised by mainstream Christianity.. Whenever groups like the KKK have their public rallies, just watch the other opposing rallies on the other side..

Also just google the number of opposing Christian groups against these "so called" Christian extremists...

Lizard Man,

Given what Gman wrote wrt KKK, I would only add that this group is in no way a state-sponsored organization. Their only claim to existence is their right to free speech and even at that, their numbers have dwindled considerably.

Now please show us what countries like Saudi Arabia or Iran are doing to combat religious extremism or to foster free speech. How many churches are there in those countries? Let's even look at one of the so-called secular Arab regimes like Egypt where more than a tenth of the population is Coptic Christian. Do you know what Christians are called there? Their own citizens? They are called Kuffar (the infidels). Do you know what Easter is called in Egypt? Sham El Nassim, something pertaining to the spring breeze. Why? Because the state-sanctioned religion is Islam. They will not recognize the right of 10 million people to call their holiday as they wish. That's secularism a la Islam for ya. Need I really go on?

I meant to add the following about a week ago and did not get around to doing so, but it is a great response to the original situation prompting this thread.

Yashiko Sagamori has written an especially erudite essay entitled Silence of the Sheep in which she asks “What should have been the appropriate response to Pope Benedict XIV after he recklessly quoted a dead Byzantine emperor?” and discusses the responses from the various different groups to Pope Benedict's use of the quotation from Emperor Manuel II Palaiologos (1350-1425).

There are too many good points to excerpt them here.
The essay is best read in its entirety.

And for a comparative appraisal, er, click here.

Canuckster1127 wrote:He's but one example.

Yeah, we even haven't addressed the cartoon fiasco that lasted for weeks...

And yet in America we see Christ slandered everyday... Pictures of the Cross dipped in urine, jokes and cartoons all over the internet, etc.. And then the Muslims say that we are a bunch of hypocrites because we don't denounce such actions... Excuse me? Believe me, I would love to censor and incriminate those for such actions, but we can't... It's a freedom of speech. Such actions are protected by our laws..

In a nutshell, this is how apostasy is addressed in both religions..

Allah says to kill the apostate..

However the God of the Bible is completely the opposite.

Christ says he will die for the apostate..

It's that simple... In order to negate this claim you will need to quote scripture.

Hmm, I just added as an edit a comparative appraisal to my post above - just a few more little examples worthy of note.

When I first saved that link there were no comments below that post. Since then some have appeared. I do want to say that I don't necessarily agree with the comments at all. That is not a Christian website although some who post to it are Christians.
NB. I absolutely don't agree with the final comment of the post itself. It is only the list of examples in the original post to which I wish to make reference.
Oh, and the same goes for the essay by Yashiko Sagamori. I am referencing the essay, not the comments.