Evidence for God from Science

FFC wrote:

Mad wrote:((BTW i dont kno y i didnt get notification that i got answer to topic - message jus didnt come. is it maybe coz i didnt sign out or didnt close the window? thgx))

I think the server still has some kinks that need worked out...as do we all.

Sorry... it was my mail accoutnafter all - for some weird reason it put it in junk folder and dono why it just does for some purpose... hmm...

bizzt wrote:Is Satan the Embodiment of Sin??

Yes. All evil comes from him. He is known as "The father of lies". God CANNOT lie, and so anything not from God is from Satan.

jenwat3 wrote:

bizzt wrote:Is Satan the Embodiment of Sin??

Yes. All evil comes from him. He is known as "The father of lies". God CANNOT lie, and so anything not from God is from Satan.

We must be careful when offering solutions to not create traps for ourselves.

For example God created Satan then anything from Satan is logically from God. So if Satan is the embodiment of sin and all evil comes from him, and God created such a sinful and evil person, then God becomes responsible for creating all sin and evil. Can you think of a solution to this dilemma?

I think Jesus' words in Matt 6:24 can be applied equally to the topic of whether we should love Satan:

No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other.

Kurieuo wrote:

jenwat3 wrote:

bizzt wrote:Is Satan the Embodiment of Sin??

Yes. All evil comes from him. He is known as "The father of lies". God CANNOT lie, and so anything not from God is from Satan.

We must be careful when offering solutions to not create traps for ourselves.

For example God created Satan then anything from Satan is logically from God. So if Satan is the embodiment of sin and all evil comes from him, and God created such a sinful and evil person, then God becomes responsible for creating all sin and evil. Can you think of a solution to this dilemma?

Ok we often hear "evil is not from God". But God allows evil. And since everything is God's will, whether good or bad - then here is another paradox or debate that could go on forever. God is not held responsible for sin but He gave first Satan and then allowed him to corrupt human race.

jenwat3 wrote:

bizzt wrote:Is Satan the Embodiment of Sin??

Yes. All evil comes from him. He is known as "The father of lies". God CANNOT lie, and so anything not from God is from Satan.

Well thats another interesting thing. OK yes we as Christians are to believe that everything evil is from Satan. But... how he does it? We have free will and "sin" and our choices are the result of brain chemistry. Does Satan control the particles, electrons, neurons etc in a similar way God does but goes against God? Or should we understand it as a metaphor?
Because, strictly speaking, humans do sin. Let's say Satan was exempt of power for a few seconds. Would the brain chemistry be different for a few seconds?
And if someone is unable to sin for a moment, lets say - he has a mental condition or something - then even Satan cant make him go sin if the person's brain is not developed enough to realize he's sinning.

Kurieuo wrote:

jenwat3 wrote:

bizzt wrote:Is Satan the Embodiment of Sin??

Yes. All evil comes from him. He is known as "The father of lies". God CANNOT lie, and so anything not from God is from Satan.

We must be careful when offering solutions to not create traps for ourselves.

For example God created Satan then anything from Satan is logically from God. So if Satan is the embodiment of sin and all evil comes from him, and God created such a sinful and evil person, then God becomes responsible for creating all sin and evil. Can you think of a solution to this dilemma?

Yes. God did NOT create Satan. He created Lucifer, who also had free will. Lucifer CHOSE to turn from God, and so it is not exactly correct to say God created Satan. God Himself cannot do or create evil, but he does give us (and angels) free will. Therefore we ourselves do evil, not God.

jenwat3 wrote:

Kurieuo wrote: We must be careful when offering solutions to not create traps for ourselves.

For example God created Satan then anything from Satan is logically from God. So if Satan is the embodiment of sin and all evil comes from him, and God created such a sinful and evil person, then God becomes responsible for creating all sin and evil. Can you think of a solution to this dilemma?

Yes. God did NOT create Satan. He created Lucifer, who also had free will. Lucifer CHOSE to turn from God, and so it is not exactly correct to say God created Satan. God Himself cannot do or create evil, but he does give us (and angels) free will. Therefore we ourselves do evil, not God.

So Lucifer became the embodiment of sin (Satan) according to his own free will? I think that clarification works better.

I think it is also good to take Augustine's approach on evil - that it is the absence of good. In which case it is not necessarily that all evil comes from Satan, but rather that Satan is just fully corrupt in going against God.

But arent Lucifer and Satan same beings? God having created Lucifer and giving him free will - it's like Him creating us and givin us fw. even if He's not held responsible, we are - yet He created us. God created Satan, but not the evil he did himself. Works that way?

madscientist wrote:But arent Lucifer and Satan same beings? God having created Lucifer and giving him free will - it's like Him creating us and givin us fw. even if He's not held responsible, we are - yet He created us. God created Satan, but not the evil he did himself. Works that way?

Yes, I think that about says it all.

I haven't read through the entire thread, just the latest few posts. But I do believe we are to love satan, just as we love ourselves (not saying i can do this BTW).

CS Lewis talked about it. He says how can we love someone so evil, while still not approving of his actions. He points out that we do it all the time. Namely with ourselves. I love myself and wish no ill-will towards me, yet there are times when i look at my actions and just shiver. As hard as it is, i believe we are to love Satan and wish him no ill-will (until, of course, his time comes). We are, from the bottom of our hearts, to wish he were not evil. To wish he would turn away and repent like we have. Whether or not it is going to happen, we don't know (okay, maybe we do know), but we should still wish it.

I have not read Lewis on this (or noted it in my reading him), however many do say we should separate one's actions from who they are, and learn to love who they are and not what they do. We can certainly grasp that a person's actions is not the actual person, however it would be wrong to divorce a person's actions from who a person is.

For example, Christ tells us to distinguish those who belong to Him by the fruits they bear. Someone who believes in Christ should under normal circumstances show evidence that they do believe. Also is Hitler a Christian? He did after all utilise Christianity for his own purposes. Can we really separate Hitler's actions from who he is? If we can then perhaps Hitler is a Christian, but if we can not bring ourselves to separate Hitler's actions from who he is then obviously we see actions do very much define who we are.

We may not be our actions, but our actions represent who we are to others, define who we are and who we become. For example, we can choose to willingly steal or not to steal, and such decisions shape our character and who we will be. You are who you are today because of your beliefs and choices in life. I find much of the Western and political correctness today in society would have us believe who we are is simply how we desire to see ourselves. But how much does that cheapen who we are? For example, how do we ever tell a good soul from a bad one? Mother Teresa really becomes no better than Hitler under such a position.

So I do hate Satan. I hate what he stands for (himself), and I hate what he does in the world. This is reflective of who Satan is. We may be called to love each other since people are only accountable to Jesus, however we not at all called to love Satan who challenges Christ's authority as master of us. As Christ said, we love one master and hate the other, or we are devoted to the one and despise the other.

I wasn't trying to excuse a person's actions, only to separate them in regards to whether we should love them or not. We should not let a person's actions cause us to not love them. The bible says to love our neighbors. Period. Not love our neighbors as long as they are good. It doesn't say, "Love your neighbors as long as they do good and not evil. When they do evil, you may hate them."

The bible is clear (at least to my untrained eyes) that we should love someone even if we hate their actions along with all they stand for. CS Lewis says it best:

CS Lewis wrote:I imagine somebody will say, 'Well, if one is allowed to condemn the enemy's acts, and punish him, and kill him, what difference is left between Christian morality and the ordinary view?' All the difference in the world. Remember, we Christians thinks a man lives for ever. Therefore, what really matters is those little marks or twists on the central, inside part of the soul which are going to turn it, in th elong run, into a heavenly or a hellish creature. We may kill if necessary, but we must not hate and enjoy hating. We may punish if necessary, but we must not enjoy it. In other words, something inside us, the feeling of resentment, the feeling that wants to get one's own back, must be simply killed. I do not mean that anyone can decide this moment that he will never feel it anymore. That is not how things happen. I mean that every time it bobs its head up, day after day, year after year, all our lives long, we must hit it on the head. It is hard work, but the attempt is not impossible. Even while we kill and punish we must try to feel about the enemy as we feel about ourselves - to wish that he were not bad, to hope that he may, in this world or another, be cured: in fact, to wish his good. That is what is meant in the Bible by loving him: wishing his good, not feeling fond of him nor saying he is nice when he is not.

Here is not talking about Satan directly, but about loving our enemies in general. I think the point of the passage can be applied to Satan, however.

Yet, as I previously reasoned, someones actions are representative and intimately tied to who a person is. If this is the case, then it is not a possibility to love someone while hating their actions for the two are not separable.

I respect Lewis highly as a reasoner (any Christian would be stupid not to), but notice Lewis' words "we must not hate and enjoy hating." A thinker of Lewis' caliber is not one to write words unnecessarily. Certainly I do not wish to hate Satan, but he leaves me no choice since he is entirely corrupted against God. Furthermore, in general I do not "hate and enjoy hating", or in any way want to get my own back at people. I will let God dish out what everyone deserves since as Creator it is His rightful place alone.

If you come across remarks from Lewis on loving or hating Satan however, I would be interested to read them if he ever answered such an issue.

I will definately do some digging. I have a lot Lewis's writings and actually enjoy digging through them.

Interesting thoughts... If that is the way we are to love others - kill and punish only out of necessity and not enjoy it, then... seems not impossible!! I mean, there are people I dont love or hate I could say but in a way wish they turned and became good. Then I love them. However, I hate their actions. God loves us but hates our sins. So can we love the being but hate the actions?

And if God lets us to hell - does it mean God hates us or doesnt love us at that very moment? Infinite love should mean that He does not rejoice at punishing us or when we go to hell. But we dont have infinite number of choices and end up all happily in heaven after all the failures. We have one life, one big choice. Limited by our environment and nature, conditions etc. So does God love us infinitely? And did He give Satan a choice to repent and become good again? If not - maybe Satan was sorry for what he did, but since God may not given him a chance he now hates him - why would he love Him if he has no way of gettin saved? Maybe God did give him a chance etc - but what if not. Can Satan be justified to hate God? Does God Himself hate him?