What difference

FFC · Post by **FFC** » Mon May 07, 2007 12:47 pm

johnnyboy08 wrote:
FFC wrote:
johnnyboy08 wrote:Thanks Gman. So exactly what are we suppose to do? Just confess? Isn't confessing a result of regret? Don't human beings all feel guilt/sorrow for their wrongdoings?
Can I just interrupt for a sec? I don't think we are supposed to do anything except respond by belief to God's calling...that is if you want to call believing "doing something". Christ already did it all when He died on the cross for your sins. You can choose to believe it and live eternally or not believe and remain dead in your sins. John 3:16 says"God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son so that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life" It's really not rocket science.

The problem is that no one can be saved by their intellectual effort. Ephesians 2:8 and 9 says "for by Grace are you saved through faith, not that of yourselves, it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast"

It all boils down to faith. Being able to prove things with our 5 senses is just an added bonus.
So what do I do? I know I'm guilty of being imperfect because I'm human, but doesn't everyone? Why did God have to make it only to Jesus and not to anyone else? Didn't the know salvation story/Bible times take place in the Middle East? What about all the other people around the globe then? In South Africa? India? China? The Americas? I've already read the article on this site about those who never heard, but doesn't your theology state that after we die, we will either go to Heaven or Hell? Well, which one did they go to?

What you do is put your complete faith and trust in God and believe that Jesus' death on the cross is sufficient enough to save you, wipe out all of your sins, and give you the promise of eternal life. Can you do that? Is there anything in your heart that is pulling you to do that?

As for the rest...God is loving and merciful and would never let anybody go to hell without revealing himself to them. God is not willing that any should perish.

zoegirl · Post by **zoegirl** » Mon May 07, 2007 1:38 pm

johnnyboy08 wrote:No offense to your God or belief, but look at the characteristic of your God...

He created something capable of imperfection that was of its nature. And for being the imperfect creature that it is, His creation goes to Hell. But He could've never did all of that. God could've never made man, but He did. For what? So we can worship Him? Is that worship worth the misery of Hellfire? Sounds to me like God has some serious egotistical tendencies...

If God made us automatons and simply robots, then would this truly be love? IF you make something that simply responds automatically, yes, God, you are great....then it really isn't a relationship, is it...

God made us capable of making a decision to love us...and the decision to walk away form Him. Only in this way can we truly worship HIm. We decided to walk away and delcared ouselves enemies to Him. As the righteous God, we are the one that has broken the relationshiip.

As for egotistical tendencies? Well, He is GOd.

But God also humbled Himself by coming down (Christ) in human flesh, His creation. Read through Job...as tough as it is, when one realizes the significance of who God is and what this means then we, like, Job, "place our hands over our mouths"

FFC · Post by **FFC** » Mon May 07, 2007 3:50 pm

johnnyboy08, are you sincerely seeking Christ or are you just having fun at our expense?

johnnyboy08 · Post by **johnnyboy08** » Mon May 07, 2007 7:46 pm

Enigma7457 wrote:
... I fully believe that if hell is eternal punishment and someone down there realizes their mistake (which isn't the sin itself but the failue to recognize Jesus as savior), i don't see why God wouldn't let them out (or whatever). He's merciful. I may be wrong, but that's my opinion. And again, if i am wrong, i'll find out in the end.

I hope, for the sake of our comfort and conscience, that you're right when you say God lets people out of Hell.

zoegirl · Post by **zoegirl** » Mon May 07, 2007 7:54 pm

Plenty of people reject God completely, plenty of atheists reject God. Think of Hell as them getting what they demand...a place without God. Eventually all of us must make a decision as to the place God hold in our lives.

Some truly reject God. Again, if God forces them to worship Him as He deserves, then we are simply robots. But if we reject Him, then we are simply going to be given what we asked.

If you could have a relationhsip with the most righteous, loving, amazing, pure, and yes, terrifying, God. If this relationship is ultimate and glorious, then the absence of this relationship would be the most tortuous of all things.

But This relationship demands that we acknowldege God as supreme and, well, as God.

Some people do not want to give God His due, or reject His existence completely, Hell is being given this separation.

johnnyboy08 · Post by **johnnyboy08** » Mon May 07, 2007 7:57 pm

FFC wrote:johnnyboy08, are you sincerely seeking Christ or are you just having fun at our expense?

I don't have fun discussing religion. I take it as serious business, as serious as you do FFC

I am seeking sincerely. I just never trust easy. It's so easy to be deceived, so hard to believe, and very simple to doubt. If the conversion process is not arduous and long, what's to stop me from becoming Muslim or Jewish right after this?

I know a lot of Christians. I also know a lot of former Christians. I know some "Ultra" Christians, too. I can't say too many of them are good examples of your Messiah. Like Gandhi said, "I like your Christ, but I don't like your Christians." There are quite a few ex-Christians that I am acquainted with that have told me they suffered in many ways when they were Christian, and most of it was related to simply the morality of man and the judgment of God. Some of these ex-Christians are compassionate, caring people, and I'm sure lost sleep over the fact that an eternity separated from God is possible in an existence given to them by an All-Loving God. They tell me that it doesn't matter how or what you do to justify it, it seems too far fetched and unlike God to do such a thing. I don't think so, not yet, so I need to look into this religion a bit more before deciding. I am not trying to waste anyone's time here. I just want some answers to my questions. For all the ones you all have answered already, you don't know how grateful I am. It's just hard for me to express gratitude over the Web and over my own cynicalism

johnnyboy08 · Post by **johnnyboy08** » Mon May 07, 2007 8:03 pm

zoegirl wrote:Plenty of people reject God completely, plenty of atheists reject God. Think of Hell as them getting what they demand...a place without God. Eventually all of us must make a decision as to the place God hold in our lives.

Some truly reject God. Again, if God forces them to worship Him as He deserves, then we are simply robots. But if we reject Him, then we are simply going to be given what we asked.

Again, I must ask you: Who made up this concept of love as a choice? I know that we exist only in this realm and that only idea of love can only be limited to the one we have now, but didn't God do that? Didn't God make love a choice?

Take, for example, a baby. It has no sin, correct? Yet you feel its love when you hold it. You feel joy when it reaches out to touch the tip of your nose. But there is no choice involved for that baby, is there? Why make it a choice? Imagine that baby as us, fragile and weak, and needs only to be loved. Why on Earth would you give that baby the ability to hurt itself and others so that he/she will receive your punishment?

Gman · Post by **Gman** » Mon May 07, 2007 8:08 pm

johnnyboy08 wrote:Gman, does it bother you to know that there are people burning in Hell? Can you sleep well enough? Does it make you uncomfortable to know that perhaps there are family members and close friends of yours down burning right now as we speak? Would you be happy for an eternity with a being that allowed this suffering to last forever?

No Johnny... It doesn't bother me.. Do you want to know why?? Because I don't know who is in heaven or hell right now... Do you?.. Unfortunately you are making assumptions that we automatically know where people go when they die.. If we do then we are playing God.. But again I will reiterate what I have been saying before. If someone choose darkness, then that is what they will receive. Even though I may love them to death, or whether they may be a family remember or a friend, we cannot prevent someone from choosing the way they want to live... God is pure love, it cannot live with evil and hatred... And God is just to let us go because of this..

zoegirl · Post by **zoegirl** » Mon May 07, 2007 8:11 pm

johnnyboy08 wrote:
zoegirl wrote:Plenty of people reject God completely, plenty of atheists reject God. Think of Hell as them getting what they demand...a place without God. Eventually all of us must make a decision as to the place God hold in our lives.

Some truly reject God. Again, if God forces them to worship Him as He deserves, then we are simply robots. But if we reject Him, then we are simply going to be given what we asked.
Again, I must ask you: Who made up this concept of love as a choice? I know that we exist only in this realm and that only idea of love can only be limited to the one we have now, but didn't God do that? Didn't God make love a choice?

Take, for example, a baby. It has no sin, correct? Yet you feel its love when you hold it. You feel joy when it reaches out to touch the tip of your nose. But there is no choice involved for that baby, is there? Why make it a choice? Imagine that baby as us, fragile and weak, and needs only to be loved. Why on Earth would you give that baby the ability to hurt itself and others so that he/she will receive your punishment?

Ultimately, though, as that baby grows up and understands more, he/she can and sometimes does reject the parent. Ask any parent whose child rebels. And yet, would that parent simply want their child to mindlessly agree? Or love because of a genuine understanding and giving to the parent.

If we are not free to disobey, then the obedience really doesn't mean much. It's a worthless act. robotic.

johnnyboy08 · Post by **johnnyboy08** » Mon May 07, 2007 8:13 pm

I don't know if I should ask this, but it's kind of apparent...

Some Christians believe in eternal hellfire (fire, screaming, torture, pain, etc.) while others don't? Do some believe that this suffering is only for a limited time, while others believe that it is forever? Do Christians actually have different viewpoints on this?

Enigma7457, sorry to reply to this now. When Christians tell me things, they actually show verses, such as specific verses on eternal torment, or miracles Jesus performed, so I don't take people at their word, I ask for evidence, don't worry

BTW, the only book I've read outside the Bible regarding God is God: The Evidence. I think a Christian wrote it, and it had some good points, but didn't really hold water because any kind of a God could fit the job description.

zoegirl · Post by **zoegirl** » Mon May 07, 2007 8:13 pm

I would really encourage you to read "mere Chrisianity" by C.S. Lewis. Very good book, helpful thought processes, and amazing logic.

Gman · Post by **Gman** » Mon May 07, 2007 8:16 pm

johnnyboy08 wrote:Take, for example, a baby. It has no sin, correct? Yet you feel its love when you hold it.

All mankind is born into sin... Again I ask, do we as humans love all the time? Are we perfect in love?

johnnyboy08 wrote:you feel joy when it reaches out to touch the tip of your nose. But there is no choice involved for that baby, is there?

Why make it a choice? Imagine that baby as us, fragile and weak, and needs only to be loved. Why on Earth would you give that baby the ability to hurt itself and others so that he/she will receive your punishment?

Why on earth does God let any of us live at all?

johnnyboy08 · Post by **johnnyboy08** » Mon May 07, 2007 8:21 pm

Gman wrote: Why on earth does God let any of us live at all?

Good question. I'm still waiting for the answer to that one

Please, no one tell me that God loves us. Is there any other answer?

Gman · Post by **Gman** » Mon May 07, 2007 9:02 pm

johnnyboy08 wrote:
Gman wrote: Why on earth does God let any of us live at all?

Good question. I'm still waiting for the answer to that one
Please, no one tell me that God loves us. Is there any other answer?

There is actually an answer for this in the Bible... I forget the verse though.. And I don't think you are going to like it... It claims that God created us (with our free will) for fellowship... And I don't have a problem with this. But then again for whatever reason others do...

B. W. · Post by **B. W.** » Mon May 07, 2007 10:40 pm

Gman wrote: Why on earth does God let any of us live at all?

johnnyboy08 wrote:Good question. I'm still waiting for the answer to that one
Please, no one tell me that God loves us. Is there any other answer?

Here is a link to another thread on this forum discussing same topic...

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... php?t=3032

Hope it helps.

Answer to your question above: He a God of the Living and not the dead...
-
-
-