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Re: Clean and unclean foods

Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:13 am
by Canuckster1127
BavarianWheels wrote:
Canuckster1127 wrote:Interesting article. Again there's no doubt in my mind there are good reasons to follow some of the old Biblical dietary laws just from a perspective of good health.
Just from a perspective of good health? (1 Cor. 6:19)
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You'd need to provide explanation to me as to why you're implying that that passage on our Body being a temple of the Holy Spirit would go beyond the issue of health in this regard.

Re: Clean and unclean foods

Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:52 am
by BavarianWheels
Canuckster1127 wrote:
BavarianWheels wrote:
Canuckster1127 wrote:Interesting article. Again there's no doubt in my mind there are good reasons to follow some of the old Biblical dietary laws just from a perspective of good health.
Just from a perspective of good health? (1 Cor. 6:19)
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You'd need to provide explanation to me as to why you're implying that that passage on our Body being a temple of the Holy Spirit would go beyond the issue of health in this regard.
Simply as stated in the text. I didn't think it needed further explanation...Even non-believers have reason to want good health.
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Re: Clean and unclean foods

Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:03 am
by Canuckster1127
BavarianWheels wrote:
Canuckster1127 wrote:
BavarianWheels wrote:
Canuckster1127 wrote:Interesting article. Again there's no doubt in my mind there are good reasons to follow some of the old Biblical dietary laws just from a perspective of good health.
Just from a perspective of good health? (1 Cor. 6:19)
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You'd need to provide explanation to me as to why you're implying that that passage on our Body being a temple of the Holy Spirit would go beyond the issue of health in this regard.
Simply as stated in the text. I didn't think it needed further explanation...Even non-believers have reason to want good health.
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OK. Who was Paul speaking to in that text and what was the context of what he was saying to them?

I can see good health as a good enough reason to encourage healthy eating habits. Yes that's going to be true of unbelievers as well as believers although, Paul is speaking here to believers so that's pretty much a moot point. Are there some clues in the passage before this specific verse as to what Paul is speaking about? Is it about Old Testament Dietary laws?

A believer who chooses to take care of their physical body because it is the temple of the Holy Spirit and does so as an act of worship is not negated in that practise because a non-believer might do the same just for the physical health and well-being such an act would bring. There is common-grace. God causes the sun to shine on the just and the unjust. I don't think of it as an act of worship I suppose to stop at a stop sign, but I don't imagine that God is not honored by that on my part, even if unbelievers stop at it too.

Are you suggesting that if the Dietary Laws are no longer in effect by ordinance of God that there's some benefit spiritually to keeping them anyway on a simple level of obedience?

Re: Clean and unclean foods

Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:05 am
by Katabole
Zoegirl wrote:

Do you uphold the bodily discharge laws? Do you abstain from sexual relations, following all ordained days to refrain from touching each other?

And if not, why not? Why follow some laws and not follow others.

Some "laws" spoken of in the Old Testament are essentially ordinances of the law. To distinguish between the different laws, ordinances, statutes(commandments) and judgements, a student of scripture must study it meticulously to understand which particular "law" or ordinace pertaining to each individual law is still binding and which one's are not and which laws fall into the category of ceremonial laws, non-ceremonial laws, laws for individuals, family, church and government, and then apply that to the examples Christ set. Jesus said He came to fulfill the law. But according to the Old Testament:

Psalm 19:7, The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: (KJV)

In the example of bodily discharges, in the Old Testament a person was removed from the populace and placed outside the camp. However, through Christ's example, he spent some time with lepers and those who had infirmaties (discharges) of blood. He didn't ostracize them but helped them and healed them. And he told his disciples to, "Follow me." In other words, do what I do, help and heal. This is how the "law" regarding this was fulfilled. And this is why Paul say's in Col 2:14, that the ordinaces (of the law) were nailed to the cross with Christ.

As for sexual relations, that would fall under the category of a commandment. Thou shalt not commit adultery, where adultery is any sexual act outside of the marriage between a man and a woman who have reamined celibate to each other until marriage. That commandment is still binding, I'm sure you'll agree Zoegirl, that fornication is completely condemned in the New Testament. In the Old Testament it was a crime worthy of the death penalty. In the New Testament Christ shows an example of this law being fulflled by forgiving the woman caught in adultery. But he warns her, Go. But do not sin again. Jesus knew adultery was sin but adultery is not the unforgiveable sin. Christ can forgive sin, just as He forgave that adulterous woman.

As for the ordained days on whether or not to abstain from touching one another, that should be included in non-ceremonial laws for individuals, that are still binding. It would be a health law, similar to the food laws. This is left up to us to discern what is binding as it says:

Acts 18:15, But if it be a question of words and names, and of your law, look ye to it; for I will be no judge of such matters.

The law should never be lumped together as one entity but "rightfully divided" as the Word states. The law Jesus is speaking of in Matt 5: 17-19 are the laws that are still binding; not the one's He fulfilled. If the Word is rightfully divided, then the confusion caused by misinterpretation should easily be alleviated and a student of the Word can then discern between a law, ordinance, statute and judgement and know which one's are still binding and which one's are not.

Romans 3:31, Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. (KJV)

There is only one ever born that never broke one aspect of the Biblical law. That is Christ. In order for any individual to do that, we would have to be doing perfect acts all the time and that is impossible for us. But not for God. And James the Apostle is right, if you broke one part of the law, you would be guilty of breaking it all.

Again, I will say that the food laws are part of the non-ceremonial health laws for individuals that are still in effect.

I don't know if any of you apply the Massorah to your studies but I find it an excellent tool to use, in order to righfully divide the Word. I would suggest purchasing a copy of Ginsburg's Massorah.


The Massorah: What Is It?
For centuries, or at least since 1611, the English speaking Christian community has had in its hands the King James Translation of the Hebrew Texts of the Old Testament, and from the Greek Text, the New Testament. Now there are many other Bible translations available today, possibly too many depending how one looks at it. The important thing is; does whatever translation a person studies put the true Word of God in the student's mind?
Let's use an analogy for finding out which translation is best suited for us. First, why is finding a certain Bible important, one might ask. The analogy starts like this: suppose you're an antique auto enthusiast. You've found an old car that you wish to restore to mint condition depending on parts availability. To make that car 'true to its time', which I mean you want that car as close to the original condition as possible, you'll look just about anywhere for any original parts, regardless sometimes of their condition, because you can rebuild some of them, but the ideal is 'mint' or pristine shape. The whole project might span a few months, years, or even a lifetime. The key is knowing that you've done your best to get the most original 'first parts' for your antique. You may have to settle for some remanufactured or 'new' parts, but those will be a minimum, because you know it destroys the originality of the car.
Now this analogy can apply to many different types of antique enthusiasts, but let's apply it to God's Word. For someone who wants that 'pristine' form of God's Word, in mint shape, unaltered, the same as when it was written down 'first hand', it might take months, years, or a lifetime of study. To find the original parts one might have to begin an in depth study of Hebrew and Greek and Chaldee. Then one must proceed on a field trip to find all available sources of the Hebrew, Greek, and Chaldee Texts, and then make comparisons, and lastly putting everything together in one final translation. Many people who are bi-lingual and speak a second or more languages can probably understand this more easily, because they are aware of some of the problems when translating between languages. Now, this is not to say that our Holy Bible is wrong , or mis-translated, but going back to the antique car analogy, 'the car is whatever make or model it was originally built to', but some of the parts may be 'newer additions' and some parts may still need to be found. The car may be driven from point A to point B, without maybe, a missing runner board, a spare wheel that mounts on the rear, side mirrors, etc., but it still goes down the road and gets us where we want to go. However, we bide our time and are patient until we can find all the parts, or in The Word's case, patiently studying in hope, and faith in the 'ideal' of our salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.Our English translations are similar to the antique car analogy. The Hebrew and Greek Texts are 'pure' and 'pristine'. The only problem is we must understand how to read Biblical Hebrew and Greek and in some cases, Chaldee and Aramaic. Then we must understand the peoples of that time, their laws, expression, and idioms; all while 'thinking' in these other languages.
Unfortunately, not everyone can do this kind of in depth study, for it requires patience of the sort that archeologists must learn. Luckily much of the work has been accomplished for us already. All we have to do is go get it. This can mean finding a Church in your community that relies heavily on teaching the congregation the Hebrew expressions and idioms that help explain God's Word along with a verse by verse, chapter by chapter instruction, or a group of Christians that meet and have a study period together, or by searching out the Texts for yourself. The important matter is that as Christians we have a responsibility to Our Lord to know what 'His Letter to us' says. Also, the fact that even today new translations are coming out means that scholars are not agreed upon how to translate the 'original parts' that go into building their translation of God's Word. This may seem confusing , and to many Christians it is. Many feel they don't have time to learn Hebrew and that God wouldn't allow the truth to be lost between translations. I somewhat understand this attitude. Finally, this brings us to the Massorah.
All of the most reliable manuscripts of the Hebrew Bible have on every page next to the Text that is arranged in two or more columns, smaller lines of writing called the Massorah Magna or Great Massorah, and the writing in the side margins is called the Massorah Parva or Small Massorah. This writing appears in between the main columns of Hebrew Text, along the top, two sides, and bottom. The word Massorah means to deliver something into the hand of another. It contains the guidelines for the Hebrew scribes that must be used in transcribing the Hebrew Texts from generation to generation. This work was originally done under Ezra and Nehemiah in order to fix the Text after the return from Babylon so that it couldn't be tampered with (Neh. 8.8 and Ezra 7:6,11).
The Massorah is called "A Fence to the Scriptures." This was because it assured every Hebrew character must be in its place in the Text by recording the "number of times the several letters occur in the various books of the Bible; the number of words, and the middle word; the number of verses, and the middle verse; the number of expressions and combinations of words, &c."(1) The Massorah also contains 'facts' and 'phenomena' associated with the Hebrew Texts; information that affects the sense and casts light upon the Scriptures. It is not found in any 'one' manuscript but is spread out among different copies of the Hebrew Text in several different countries, and for whatever reason, Dr. C.D. Ginsburg is the only 'Christian' scholar that has pulled all of it together from the several manuscripts, and printed a three volume set. His three volume set Massoretico-Critical Text is very rare. This Massoretico-Critical Text of the Hebrew Bible can be found in only one Bible to date. That is The Companion Bible. This is an edition of the 1611 King James Authorized Version with a wealth of information in its margins especially the notes of 'facts' and 'phenomena' from the Massorah, and a well rounded Appendix full of diagrams, charts, Hebrew idioms and expressions, tabulated data on particular messages within God's Word, up-to-date archeological information proving God's Word, etc. The Companion Bible is not a new translation, nor a commentary, and is not authored by any one man.
"Why is this Massorah so important?", you're probably asking. Here's one point. When the translators of The King James of 1611 went to the Hebrew Texts of the Old Testament, they did not know of the Massorah. They and also the Revisers performed their work ignorant of the treasures contained in the Massorah, and no hint of it was given the reader. It's almost like the 'antique car' (Hebrew Text) had some 'original parts' (Massorah) that got lost when it went from one country (Hebrew manuscripts) to the next country (translation into Old English King James Bible). The fact of why the Massorah was not known of by the KJV translators and Revisers, or even Critics; and if they were aware of it, why it would have been purposely left out of the KJV is a study in itself. Here's yet another point. No matter how many new modern English translations come out, if they don't contain the Massorah, some of the original 'sense' will be lost. One could say that the Massorah was God's way of making sure His Word had only 'one' interpretation, and if followed, would be handed down from generation to generation without alteration.

30. THE MASSORAH.

All the oldest and best manuscripts of the Hebrew Bible contain on every page, beside the Text (which is arranged in two or more columns), a varying number of lines of smaller writing, distributed between the upper and lower margins. This smaller writing is called the Massorah Magna or Great Massorah, while that in the side margins between the columns is called the Massorah Parva or Small Massorah.
The illustration given on p. 32 is a reduced facsimile of a Hebrew MS. (16 1/4 inches x 12 3/8), written in a German hand, about the year A.D. 1120. The small writing in the margins in this particular MS. is seen to occupy seven lines in the lower margin, and four lines in the upper; while in the outer margins and between the three columns is the Massorah Parva.

The word Massorah is from the root masar, to deliver something into the hand of another, so as to commit it to his trust. Hence the name is given to the small writing referred to, because it contains information necessary to those who trust the Sacred Text was committed, so that they might transcribe it, and hand it down correctly.

The Text itself had been fixed before the Massorites were put in charge of it. This had been the work of the Sopherim (from saphar, to count, or number). Their work, under Ezra and Nehemiah, was to set the Text in order after the return from Babylon; and we read of it in Neh. 8:8 (*1) (cp. Ezra 7:6, 11). The men of "the Great Synagogue" completed the work. This work lasted about 110 years, from Nehemiah to Simon the first, 410 - 300 B.C.

The Sopherim were the authorized revisers of the Sacred Text; and, their work being completed, the Massorites were the authorized custodians of it. Their work was to preserve it. The Massorah is called "A Fence to the Scriptures," because it locked all words and letters in their places. It does not contain notes or comments as such, but facts and phenomena. It records the number of times the several letters occur in the various books of the Bible; the number of words, and the middle word; the number of verses, and the middle verse; the number of expressions and combinations of words, &c. All this, not from a perverted ingenuity, but for the set purpose of safeguarding the Sacred Text, and preventing the loss of misplacement of a single letter or word.

This Massorah is not contained in the margins of any one MS. No MS. contains the whole, or even the same part. It is spread over many MSS., and Dr. C. D. Ginsburg has been the first and only scholar who has set himself to collect and collate the whole, copying it from every available MS. in the libraries of many countries. He has published it in three large folio volumes, and only a small number of copies has been printed. These are obtainable only by the original subscribers.

When the Hebrew Text was printed, only the large type in the columns was regarded, and the small type of the Massorah was left, unheeded, in the MSS. from which the Text was taken. When translators came to the printed Hebrew Text, they were necessarily destitute of the information contained in the Massorah; so that the Revisers as well as the Translators of the Authorized Version carried out their work without any idea of the treasures contained in the Massorah; and therefore, without giving a hint of it to their readers.

This is the first time that an edition of the A.V. has been given containing any of these treasures of the Massorah, that affect so seriously the understanding of the Text. A vast number of the Massoretic notes concern only the orthography, and matters that pertain to the Concordance. But many of those which affect the sense, or throw any additional light on the Sacred Text, are noted in the margin of The Companion Bible.

Some of the important lists of words which are contained in the Massorah are also given, viz. those that have the "extraordinary points" (Ap. 31); the "eighteen emendations" of the Sopherim (see Ap. 33); the 134 passages where they substituted Adonai for Jehovah (see Ap. 32); and the Various Readings called Severin (see Ap. 34). These are given in separate Appendixes; but other words of any importance are preserved in our marginal notes.

Readers of The Companion Bible are put in possession of information denied to former generations of translators, commentators, critics, and general Bible students. For further information on the Massorah see Dr. Ginsburg's Introduction the the Hebrew Bible, of which only a limited edition was printed; also a small pamphlet on The Massorah published by the King's Printers.





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(*1) The Talmud explains that "the book" meant the original text; "distinctly" means explaining it by giving the Chaldee paraphrase; "gave the sense" means the division of words, &c. according to the sense; and "caused them to understand the reading" means to give the traditional pronunciation of the words (which were then without vowel points).




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http://www.levendwater.org/companion/append30.html

http://members.tnns.net/wordweb/ltr1.htm

Hope that helps.

Re: Clean and unclean foods

Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:35 am
by BavarianWheels
Katabole wrote:And if not, why not? Why follow some laws and not follow others.
Good question...why follow, "Do not murder"...and ignore #4??
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Re: Clean and unclean foods

Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:46 pm
by zoegirl
leviticus wrote:"Say to the Israelites: 'A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period"

If she gives birth to a daughter, for two weeks the woman will be unclean, as during her period. Then she must wait sixty-six days to be purified from her bleeding.

" 'When a man is cleansed from his discharge, he is to count off seven days for his ceremonial cleansing; he must wash his clothes and bathe himself with fresh water, and he will be clean. 14 On the eighth day he must take two doves or two young pigeons and come before the LORD to the entrance to the Tent of Meeting and give them to the priest. 15 The priest is to sacrifice them, the one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. In this way he will make atonement before the LORD for the man because of his discharge.

16 " 'When a man has an emission of semen, he must bathe his whole body with water, and he will be unclean till evening. 17 Any clothing or leather that has semen on it must be washed with water, and it will be unclean till evening. 18 When a man lies with a woman and there is an emission of semen, both must bathe with water, and they will be unclean till evening.

19 " 'When a woman has her regular flow of blood, the impurity of her monthly period will last seven days, and anyone who touches her will be unclean till evening
I am referring to the ceremonial laws that are simply a chapter away from those dietary laws you want to keep. I am not referring to the commandments "do not commit adultery" or the the New Testament commands to "flee from sexual immorality". But rather those strict commandments above that command when you are clean and unclean. There were strict guidelines as to when people were to be considered clean and unclean and when to abstain from sex, with regards to being clean and unclean.

My point is that IF those commandments were predominantly given for hygiene reasons (similar to the good foods) then why are you not so rigid about these laws, again given simply a chapter away from those dietary laws you so rigidly follow?

And IF, as Jenna has pointed out, you don't follow them because "we know what constitutes good health and hygiene" then why do you not also follow this with regards to the foods, ie, what we understand with regards to cooking and preserving DOES make some foods healthy and disease free.

I am not trying to make a case for giving up on following God's commandments. BUT the difference, which Canuckster so ably pointed out, is whether following these laws are a requirement for salvation or even obedience any more.

Obviously the law, as stated by Paul in ROmans, reveals our sin and shows us how utterly and incompletely incapable we are of following the law and being righteous, thus the need for CHrist. Christ came to fulfill the law and impute His righteousness to us. The law does NOTHING WITH REGARDS TO SALVATION, save revealing how desperately we need HIs atoning sacrifice.

So my question ultimatley refers to those specific commands that I have quoted above. SHould women be considered unclean after childbirth? Why were they considered unclean then? Why were men considered unclean after a seminal discharge? Why not now? And why do you consider these laws not binding when they come on the heels of the dietary laws?

Re: Clean and unclean foods

Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:39 pm
by BavarianWheels
zoegirl wrote:I am not trying to make a case for giving up on following God's commandments. BUT the difference, which Canuckster so ably pointed out, is whether following these laws are a requirement for salvation or even obedience any more.
I would say simply that God doesn't just make "laws" for the fun of it. I'm sure they are of some significance and actively serve a purpose no matter what WE think.

I would agree with you, keeping the law...ceremonial or moral...DO NOT afford salvation except for those that can/have kept it perfectly. We can't. They're not in place for salvation, but as methods in which to better know God's ways.
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Re: Clean and unclean foods

Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 4:29 pm
by zoegirl
BavarianWheels wrote:
zoegirl wrote:I am not trying to make a case for giving up on following God's commandments. BUT the difference, which Canuckster so ably pointed out, is whether following these laws are a requirement for salvation or even obedience any more.
I would say simply that God doesn't just make "laws" for the fun of it. I'm sure they are of some significance and actively serve a purpose no matter what WE think.

I would agree with you, keeping the law...ceremonial or moral...DO NOT afford salvation except for those that can/have kept it perfectly. We can't. They're not in place for salvation, but as methods in which to better know God's ways.
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I am sure that God doesn't ake laws for the fun of it. I am absolutely certain that these laws were for a reason, be is setting apart the Hebrew people from those cultures around them, health and hygiene, and for obedience in pointing out or inability of keeping these laws.

HOWEVER, you haven't addressed the question. If they have significcance and serve a purpose, then you should still be following them! IF you don't, you must still address why you have decided to forego the body laws for clean and unclean and yet adhere to the dietary laws.

If it IS for health and hygiene, what are your standards for dismissing the standards for body health and keeping the dietary laws?

You have stated that we should follow these....I simply am reading the entirety of Leviticus and wanting to know your reasoning why you discard some and follow others. I have yet to hear a satisfactory answer.

Re: Clean and unclean foods

Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:24 pm
by Katabole
There is a subtle difference between Leviticus 11 and Leviticus 12.

Lev 11:46, This is the law of the beasts, and of the fowl, and of every living creature that moveth in the waters, and of every creature that creepeth upon the earth:

The word "law" as utilized in this verse of this chapter is:

8451
towrah
to-raw'
or torah {to-raw'}; from 'yarah' (3384); a precept or statute, especially the Decalogue or Pentateuch:--law.

Lev 12:7, Who shall offer it before the LORD, and make an atonement for her; and she shall be cleansed from the issue of her blood. This is the law for her that hath born a male or a female.

The word "law" as utilized in this verse of this chapter is:

8452
towrah
to-raw'
probably feminine of 'towr' (8448); a custom:--manner.

Leviticus 11 is speaking of law. Leviticus 12 is speaking of ordinances or customs.

The ordinances have been done away with:

Col 2:14, Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Thus, since the ordinances have been nailed to the cross with Christ, then there is no reason to follow what is stated in Lev 12 regarding the ordinances such as the amount of time to wait to be ceremonially clean after the birth of a child, circumcision and the offerings that follow.

Leviticus 11 is speaking of the law, not ordinances and is still binding. It regards health. Not salvation.

Hope that helps.

Re: Clean and unclean foods

Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:46 am
by BavarianWheels
zoegirl wrote:
BavarianWheels wrote:
zoegirl wrote:I am not trying to make a case for giving up on following God's commandments. BUT the difference, which Canuckster so ably pointed out, is whether following these laws are a requirement for salvation or even obedience any more.
I would say simply that God doesn't just make "laws" for the fun of it. I'm sure they are of some significance and actively serve a purpose no matter what WE think.

I would agree with you, keeping the law...ceremonial or moral...DO NOT afford salvation except for those that can/have kept it perfectly. We can't. They're not in place for salvation, but as methods in which to better know God's ways.
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I am sure that God doesn't ake laws for the fun of it. I am absolutely certain that these laws were for a reason, be is setting apart the Hebrew people from those cultures around them, health and hygiene, and for obedience in pointing out or inability of keeping these laws.

HOWEVER, you haven't addressed the question. If they have significcance and serve a purpose, then you should still be following them! IF you don't, you must still address why you have decided to forego the body laws for clean and unclean and yet adhere to the dietary laws.

If it IS for health and hygiene, what are your standards for dismissing the standards for body health and keeping the dietary laws?

You have stated that we should follow these....I simply am reading the entirety of Leviticus and wanting to know your reasoning why you discard some and follow others. I have yet to hear a satisfactory answer.
If you believe God doesn't make arbitrary laws (for the fun of it) then you can't believe He makes law(s) simply to set a people apart. While the law(s) may set them apart, there is nothing arbitrary about what God sets down as law.

If you're asking me why I don't follow EVERY law, it is because it was NEVER set in place for salvation and I choose to exercise my God-given freedom to choose to follow His precepts or not...none of which make or break my salvation. (I'm talking about dietary law here) So whether I choose to eat only clean or include unclean foods in my diet are not issues for salvation. If there are consequences for injesting unclean food, then those consequences afflict me, not for punishment but out of logical consequences of eating unclean foods that have short or long term effects on my health. Some people might never feel such consequences out of sheer luck of the draw in having a "better immune" system to these consequences or they might never live long enough for these consequences to manifest.

For example; If you are/were a parent of a young child, didn't you make your child brush their teeth (at least) every night? Would you say you mandated that task for them as a child? I would/did/do of my own children. Now your children being as adults, do you still mandate that of them? I suppose you could if they still partake of your dental insurance but for the most part I'm gonna go out on a limb and say their oral hygiene is on their own shoulders. They know the steps to take for good oral hygiene...but it is now their own responsibility. If they lose their teeth, you'll still love them and call them your own. Right? Kind of how I view these dietary laws. Their apparent disobedience is not cause for removing them from the family.

Does brushing your teeth still have significance? yes. Does it still serve a purpose? yes. Can I choose not to brush my teeth? Yes...however there are consequences. You could lose your teeth. However, you'll never lose your family having lost one or all your teeth.

Canuckster1127 said something about following the dietary laws are good "just from a perspective of good health". I questioned his statement by putting forth 1 Cor. 6:19 which states our bodies are a temple... Not only are the dietary laws good for health, but also because our bodies ultimately don't belong to us if we call ourselves Christian. We were bought at a price...as it says. Not only are they good for health or because of our bodies being a temple of the HS, but also because we are to honor God with our body. So I would say Canuckster1127 is wrong in his statment saying the dietary laws are good "just from a perspective of good health."
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Re: Clean and unclean foods

Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:02 pm
by BavarianWheels
Canuckster1127 wrote:Are you suggesting that if the Dietary Laws are no longer in effect by ordinance of God that there's some benefit spiritually to keeping them anyway on a simple level of obedience?
I'm suggesting your statement of the dietary laws being followed is good "just from a perspective of good health." is wrong. The one verse talks about at least two other reasons we should care for our body. I wouldn't rule out God's dietary precepts as outside this.

Also...if a person keeps these dietary laws for the reason set forth in 1 Cor. 6:19, then for them it is of spiritual benefit...and keeping them on a level of simple obedience can and does mean we care for our body and invite the HS to dwell in a "more clean" body and we honor God in making his precepts important to us.

Does this make for a better Christian? Humanly speaking, probably. Ultimately...no, since all our good deeds are as filty rags in God's sight.

Better question is; Are you suggesting not following the dietary laws is better than following them?
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Re: Clean and unclean foods

Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:21 pm
by zoegirl
I'm suggesting that a good understanding of diet and food allows us to understand proper foods.

It sounds like you are agreeing with me, Bavarian, about the need to follow them with regards to salvation.

Re: Clean and unclean foods

Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 2:10 pm
by Canuckster1127
BavarianWheels wrote:
Canuckster1127 wrote:Are you suggesting that if the Dietary Laws are no longer in effect by ordinance of God that there's some benefit spiritually to keeping them anyway on a simple level of obedience?
I'm suggesting your statement of the dietary laws being followed is good "just from a perspective of good health." is wrong. The one verse talks about at least two other reasons we should care for our body. I wouldn't rule out God's dietary precepts as outside this.

Also...if a person keeps these dietary laws for the reason set forth in 1 Cor. 6:19, then for them it is of spiritual benefit...and keeping them on a level of simple obedience can and does mean we care for our body and invite the HS to dwell in a "more clean" body and we honor God in making his precepts important to us.

Does this make for a better Christian? Humanly speaking, probably. Ultimately...no, since all our good deeds are as filty rags in God's sight.

Better question is; Are you suggesting not following the dietary laws is better than following them?
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Fair enough. I wasn't seeking to be precise in my comments and if your objection is that there could be another valid reason for eating Kosher, than good health which would or should induce a Christian to follow them than I'll accept that.

If you don't want to answer my question as to what that might be, that's fine.

I think good health is as valid a reason as any other, because I believe the dietary laws are no longer in effect for the Christian and therefore any appeal to follow them on a basis of personal holiness in the sense of making the body more fit for the HS to reside is moot.

I'm not suggesting that following or not following dietary laws is better. I'm not even asking the question since I don't believe there's a basis to ask it on given that those laws are no longer in effect.

Re: Clean and unclean foods

Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:17 pm
by B. W.
Hi All,

I was not able to post the past few days as I was in Denver CO for a Church seminar conference and spoke there regarding Heaven and Hell.

Caunuckster1127 says it best.. :amen:
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Re: Clean and unclean foods

Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:13 pm
by oscarsiziba
Obedience characterised by trust is what God sought in the Garden couple regarding eating the other tree.That is still the case.
It's not logical,but required nevertheless.