Evidence for God from Science

cslewislover wrote:I think if a Christian did their homework, and actually knew the bible, they wouldn't support Obama over McCain.

Bavarian, the fact that you send your kids to a private Christian school seems to take a lot of steam out of your arguments. So much of what you write seems so . . . like what is promoted in public schools. I don't send my son to public school for a couple of reasons. One, the schools here in Anaheim are really lousy. Two, they teach about gay families and marriage like it's the same as traditional marriage. And, if the kids act badly about it, they have to go to counseling. There are other reasons too, but those two are important.

How so? I disagree with the Christians that want religious views upheld by the State. I don't want my child taught that gay marriage is "ok"...it's not...from a God perspective. The fact is we live in a Democracy...majority rules (sometimes) and if Christians want the State to legislate their beliefs...we might as well become a Theocracy. Churches, while they teach the separation of Church and State, are becoming more and more involved so the teaching is either being thrown out or ignored. We might as well vote in a Pope of sorts to rule as he used to in the Dark Ages...who wants that? It's all just the logical conclusion of such minor happenings.

The point is this...Christian morality should be taught in the home...not by the State.
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BavarianWheels wrote:

cslewislover wrote:I think if a Christian did their homework, and actually knew the bible, they wouldn't support Obama over McCain.

Bavarian, the fact that you send your kids to a private Christian school seems to take a lot of steam out of your arguments. So much of what you write seems so . . . like what is promoted in public schools. I don't send my son to public school for a couple of reasons. One, the schools here in Anaheim are really lousy. Two, they teach about gay families and marriage like it's the same as traditional marriage. And, if the kids act badly about it, they have to go to counseling. There are other reasons too, but those two are important.

How so? I disagree with the Christians that want religious views upheld by the State. I don't want my child taught that gay marriage is "ok"...it's not...from a God perspective. The fact is we live in a Democracy...majority rules (sometimes) and if Christians want the State to legislate their beliefs...we might as well become a Theocracy. Churches, while they teach the separation of Church and State, are becoming more and more involved so the teaching is either being thrown out or ignored. We might as well vote in a Pope of sorts to rule as he used to in the Dark Ages...who wants that? It's all just the logical conclusion of such minor happenings.

The point is this...Christian morality should be taught in the home...not by the State.
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I guess it's hard for me to put my finger on. I know we don't live in a theocracy, and that's absolutely fine. But who is to lead and guide when it comes to our culture? The reason why ethics and morals have gone downhill in our country is because, I think, Christians have not lead. But I don't know for sure how they should lead and guide. From what you're saying, and which is absolutely true and vital, kids should be lead at home. If everyone did that, the country overall would be more Christian. It seems to me that it's spiralled downward, and it's still going. Should we just let it do that?

cslewislover wrote:I guess it's hard for me to put my finger on. I know we don't live in a theocracy, and that's absolutely fine. But who is to lead and guide when it comes to our culture? The reason why ethics and morals have gone downhill in our country is because, I think, Christians have not lead. But I don't know for sure how they should lead and guide. From what you're saying, and which is absolutely true and vital, kids should be lead at home. If everyone did that, the country overall would be more Christian. It seems to me that it's spiralled downward, and it's still going. Should we just let it do that?

I hate to be the bearer of bad news...but the downward spiral cannot be stopped. I don't say we should allow society to degrade, however when we use the State to legislate religious ideas, we are regressing. Just look at history and the Dark Ages when the people allowed (were forced) to believe as the leader did...when he would burn that which conflicted with his own agenda...even burning and keeping the people away from the one book he upheld as infallible...hmmm. Keep the people in ingnorance is the inevitable outcome of these small acts of "keeping the sanctity of marriage" through Prop. 8.

If we teach our own...then we need not fear them falling into the pitfalls of the downward spiraling of society.
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BavarianWheels wrote:[Why am I voting? Am I not giving my opinion on the matter? Would this not serve as the answer to why?

Your opinion? Which doesn't align with God's opinion?

BavarianWheels wrote:There is a basis...no doubt...however these are laws against (as I mentioned above to zoegirl) victimization in these acts. Polyandry is not bad on society when the individuals partaking in it are consentual adults.

Polyandry not bad? What about the spread of diseases??

BavarianWheels wrote:Have you ever attended a "worship" service in a Christian church where the pulpit is used to promote Christian values on society, i.e. swaying the worshiper's votes? They try and convince you that voting a certain way will "help" Christianity and the Will of God and that it's "right". I've seen it...heard it. It's what happens, but maybe not to you. "Marriage" is just a piece of paper with certain rights that come with it from a society...nothing else. A Christian was never told of God to marry in a church with a minister and marry by the State at city hall...were we?

Then why are people getting married then??? You don't think that God sanctifies marriage?

BavarianWheels wrote: I would be all for it! The keeping of religious law should be of one's own conscience...not societies whims.

You don't think that gay sex is unnatural? Is it good for the person or society engaging in it? Show me some proof that it is then...

To be fair, I don't think God is a democrat OR a Republican.

BavarianWheels wrote:

Harry12345 wrote:I suggest you savour this victory; with Obama planning to repeal the Defense of Marriage Act, California will be forced to recognise same sex marriages performed in other states... constitutional ban being neither here nor there.

LOL...if this is true...Prop 8 passed...but Obama trumps it. LOL! And Christians support this guy!
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It is true. Obama called the Defense of Marriage Act "abhorrent" and "evil" and says he wants to overturn it almost immediately under his administration. There is a law which says all states must recognise marriages, contracts and rulings made by other states of the USA. The Defense of Marriage Act was designed to exempt same sex marriage from this law: states do not have to recognise same sex marriages performed in other states. However, once Obama overturns this act (which he WILL), California will be forced, by law, to recognise same sex marriages performed in other states like Connecticut which allows gay marriage. So Proposition 8 will be rendered unlawful by federal standards, and overturned by the Supreme Court... or Obama's Government itself!

So as I said, savour your victory while it lasts...

Gman wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:Why am I voting? Am I not giving my opinion on the matter? Would this not serve as the answer to why?

Your opinion? Which doesn't align with God's opinion?

Does God ask us to worry about man's law or His own? Again I ask, what does it matter if homosexuals are given a piece of paper from the STATE giving them STATE rights? Homosexuals are getting married regardless of this anyway...the only thing holding this back is the Religious Right.

Gman wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:There is a basis...no doubt...however these are laws against (as I mentioned above to zoegirl) victimization in these acts. Polyandry is not bad on society when the individuals partaking in it are consentual adults.

Polyandry not bad? What about the spread of diseases??

LOL...I don't see you on any bandwagon promoting a Prop # to outlaw fornication of any kind...what about the spread of disease? Prop. 8 will surely stop it in its tracks...[/sarcasm]

Gman wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:Have you ever attended a "worship" service in a Christian church where the pulpit is used to promote Christian values on society, i.e. swaying the worshiper's votes? They try and convince you that voting a certain way will "help" Christianity and the Will of God and that it's "right". I've seen it...heard it. It's what happens, but maybe not to you. "Marriage" is just a piece of paper with certain rights that come with it from a society...nothing else. A Christian was never told of God to marry in a church with a minister and marry by the State at city hall...were we?

Then why are people getting married then??? You don't think that God sanctifies marriage?

It is God that sanctifies a man and woman together...not marriage. God is the author of the union of man and woman into one flesh not "marriage". Of course God sanctifies it...that's the whole point. It is not our duty as Christians to have the STATE sanctify it. The State can only give State benefits...not Godly benefits!

Gman wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:I would be all for it! The keeping of religious law should be of one's own conscience...not societies whims.

You don't think that gay sex is unnatural?

When did I say otherwise? Of course it's unnatural. Are you out promoting a Prop. # against sodomy within a marriage...or between two consenting adults of differing genders? Are you campaigning a new law be instituted on this? If not, then you too are "condoning" the act by remaining silent / neutral. Don't give me the excuse of, "If it were a Prop. I would support it." It's the EXACT same thing...yet "we" remain silent.

Gman wrote:Is it good for the person or society engaging in it?

No. It is not the burden of the STATE to legislate religious beliefs especially when the seekers of this freedom are not seeking a Godly blessing, but a STATE "blessing"...absolutely nothing to do with God...

Gman wrote:Show me some proof that it is then...

Show you proof? We are in agreement on the unGodliness of homosexuality! LOL. You don't listen/read/understand very well apparently.

If you haven't noticed, society is ALREADY engaging in it.
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cslewislover wrote:Yeah, I think it's weird that these anti-gay marriage initiatives passed, yet Obama won. What a funny nation we are.

Ignorant people...lol.

btw...I'm wondering why you use a "color" in posting your text. When I view it, the text is just black...??
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BavarianWheels wrote:Does God ask us to worry about man's law or His own?

What are you talking about? Do you think man's laws are different from God's laws? Ok, answer this question for me then. Why did God ever give man laws?? You don't think the Jews had laws to govern His people?

BavarianWheels wrote:Again I ask, what does it matter if homosexuals are given a piece of paper from the STATE giving them STATE rights?

You mean give them STATE rights to do unspeakable perverted, unnatural, disease spreading acts to one another and the rest of society?? Did you know the life span of gay men and bisexual men lose up to 20 years of life expectancy? Do you wish them to live or die? Are laws given to protect or take away life?

Source: http://www.catholiceducation.org/articl ... o0075.html

BavarianWheels wrote:Homosexuals are getting married regardless of this anyway...the only thing holding this back is the Religious Right.

Yeah, the religious right… How dare they try to protect people from killing themselves…

BavarianWheels wrote:LOL...I don't see you on any bandwagon promoting a Prop # to outlaw fornication of any kind...what about the spread of disease? Prop. 8 will surely stop it in its tracks...[/sarcasm]

Oh, funny huh? In your words, we should rather do nothing… Forget about the health risks..

BavarianWheels wrote:It is God that sanctifies a man and woman together...not marriage. God is the author of the union of man and woman into one flesh not "marriage". Of course God sanctifies it...that's the whole point. It is not our duty as Christians to have the STATE sanctify it. The State can only give State benefits...not Godly benefits!

That's the problem… You haven't clearly made the distinction between state and religious laws… Obviously certain religious laws have past… But not the moral ones. Do you know what moral laws are?

BavarianWheels wrote:When did I say otherwise? Of course it's unnatural.

And that is good for society? Unnatural perverted acts?

BavarianWheels wrote:Are you out promoting a Prop. # against sodomy within a marriage...or between two consenting adults of differing genders? Are you campaigning a new law be instituted on this? If not, then you too are "condoning" the act by remaining silent / neutral. Don't give me the excuse of, "If it were a Prop. I would support it." It's the EXACT same thing...yet "we" remain silent.

We probably should.. Why not?? First off it is dangerous and could also spread diseases to others. What happens when we go against nature? Is body made for that??

BavarianWheels wrote:No. It is not the burden of the STATE to legislate religious beliefs especially when the seekers of this freedom are not seeking a Godly blessing, but a STATE "blessing"...absolutely nothing to do with God...

Again, you are confused about state and religious laws…

BavarianWheels wrote:Show you proof?

Yes show me the proof that these acts are good for society.. Now..

BavarianWheels wrote:We are in agreement on the unGodliness of homosexuality! LOL.

No we are not… Why? Because YOU seem to believe that homosexuality is good for society. I don't..

BavarianWheels wrote:You don't listen/read/understand very well apparently.

Oh, an ad hominem.. Whats the matter?? Ok, well then I'll give you just one more chance to redeem yourself then…

BavarianWheels wrote:If you haven't noticed, society is ALREADY engaging in it.

Really? No I haven't noticed…

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Gman...homosexuality is not going to "flourish" anymore or less as a result of Prop. 8...in fact inspite of Prop. 8, it will grow as God allows...not as we legislate.

Do I think man's laws are different to God's laws? Yes. Without law there is no sin. You think you're going to stamp out homosexuality by any means with laws?

Give them state rights to do unspeakable things...LOL. Are they not doing them now? What a rediculous idea...has the state all of a sudden legislated being homosexual is against the law?

The religious right...without them, all of society would be dead apparently.

Health risks? Gman...*cupping hands over mouth to amplify voice* Homosexuality exists...it's nothing new...it won't go away until Christ comes...it's here...a piece of paper will not change this.

Distinction between state and moral laws...I put it as best as I could. The state's paper gives the state's "blessing"...this does not give God's blessing...therein being the difference.

Once again...you say I'm saying homosexuality is good for society (an unnatural perverted act) - I'm not saying that, however by the arguments so far, you and others are saying the EXACT same thing by staying quiet of the fornication matter which does the same and to a higher degree as there are far more heterosexuals in society than homosexuals.

You say we probably should...I would agree from the perspective of a Christian. But I would oppose any law based solely on religious beliefs. How would you feel if Saturday was mandated by the state as the only day one could worship? As an Adventist...I would certainly oppose such a state law! The point being...where do we draw the line for legislating laws that are based on religious beliefs through the state?

You're asking me to prove homosexuality is good for society and again I tell you I can't because as God has said, it's not good. I'll restate my ad hominem: You don't listen/read/understand. It's a natural part of life that is a result of sin...not natural in a Godly sense, but natural to sin. Society has lived with homosexuality for almost as long as man has been on this earth and it will not go away as a result of a silly Prop.

Is it homosexuality that's unnatural or the marriage of two in love that's unnatural? If the former, then the efforts are being placed in the wrong place. Society isn't outlawing (sp? or is that a word?)...uh...the correct word isn't coming to me atm...anyway as a society we are not even as is suggested to do with homosexuals in the Bible. I wouldn't condone that myself now anyway. God and God alone has that right. I wouldn't assume so much to think every homosexual deserves death for being homosexual as I believe we all deserve death for simply being a sinner.

If it's true as you say:

Gman wrote:Did you know the life span of gay men and bisexual men lose up to 20 years of life expectancy? Do you wish them to live or die? Are laws given to protect or take away life?

...will homosexuality not kill itself off? I suspect it's the same statistic of gay/bisexual women?

Gman wrote:You mean give them STATE rights to do unspeakable perverted, unnatural, disease spreading acts to one another and the rest of society??

How are they spreading their disease to you?

I believe that homosexuality is not a choice (for almost all of them) and there's nothing they can do to change their affinity for their own gender. I don't understand it, but I can't say it's fake. God hates the sin...but never the sinner. God no more hates homosexuality than he does fornication yet we as heterosexuals seem to think we can mandate their actions when we are not mandating our own! We remain quiet on the "natural" sins...but are quick to drop the gavel when the same sin is "unnatural". Just because it has "two check marks" next to it, it should be a state law also ON TOP OF a Godly law? Silly.

The fact of the matter is Prop. 8 will no more stop gay marriage as prohibition stopped drinking.
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This was in the most recent issue of WORLD magazine.

Prop 8 and Ake
In the weeks winding down to Election Day, a religious dissident is touring California. His message to Christians: What happened to him could happen to them. Tall and spectacled with a wreath of silver hair, Pastor Ake Green, 67, doesn't look like a dissident but in 2004 a Swedish court sentenced him to a month in prison for missakt-ing, or "disrespecting," homosexuals by preaching from the Bible that homosexuality is a sin. A Swedish appeals court overturned the conviction, but a determined prosecutor took the case to the nation's Supreme Court. Justices there declined to convict Green, largely because the pastor had vowed to appeal to the European Union, where the law still protects freedom of speech and religion.

Now Green is speaking at California churches, urging Christians to support Proposition 8, an initiative that would amend the state constitution to recognize only traditional marriage. "People still need to wake up," Green told WORLD, saying that he detects complacency on the issue, a sense that Americans believe they will always have freedom of speech and religion: "We in Sweden thought the same thing."

cslewislover wrote:This was in the most recent issue of WORLD magazine.

Prop 8 and Ake
In the weeks winding down to Election Day, a religious dissident is touring California. His message to Christians: What happened to him could happen to them. Tall and spectacled with a wreath of silver hair, Pastor Ake Green, 67, doesn't look like a dissident but in 2004 a Swedish court sentenced him to a month in prison for missakt-ing, or "disrespecting," homosexuals by preaching from the Bible that homosexuality is a sin. A Swedish appeals court overturned the conviction, but a determined prosecutor took the case to the nation's Supreme Court. Justices there declined to convict Green, largely because the pastor had vowed to appeal to the European Union, where the law still protects freedom of speech and religion.

Now Green is speaking at California churches, urging Christians to support Proposition 8, an initiative that would amend the state constitution to recognize only traditional marriage. "People still need to wake up," Green told WORLD, saying that he detects complacency on the issue, a sense that Americans believe they will always have freedom of speech and religion: "We in Sweden thought the same thing."

As Christians, don't we already know the decline of society is part of the process setting the scene for Christ's coming?

It just *seems* to me that people think or want to delay the inevitable and thus delay in that which we hope...plz don't misunderstand.
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BavarianWheels wrote:.
I believe that homosexuality is not a choice (for almost all of them) and there's nothing they can do to change their affinity for their own gender. I don't understand it, but I can't say it's fake. God hates the sin...but never the sinner.

Thank you! That would be a huge slap in the face to people like me, who love God but struggle with homosexuality.

I can tell any of you doubters now, if I had any choice in the matter I wouldn't be this way. I can't stop myself from having a sexual affinity for men any more than I can stop the moon from going round the Earth. It doesn't help that 90% of all perfume/ aftershave adverts (which are rife themselves) involve scantily clad male models prancing around, causing me to grit my teeth and LivePause until the programme continues.

Likewise if I had any choice, two guys or two women would not be allowed to get married. Well you guys had a choice. You could of voted for Prop 8. Don't waste such a precious oppurtunity! As for 'delaying the inevitable', Jesus will come whensoever he decides he'll come. We can't delay anything. All we can do is perform our duties as Christians, and if that means voting against gay marriage when the oppurtunity arises, then do so!

And at the end of the day, what really is wrong with Civil Unions? REALLY?